Cesar Millan works with Ian Dunbar?!

[ihartgonzo]

YouTube - Cesar's Rules by Cesar Millan - Book Trailer!

Say WHAAAT? I am so confused... sorry is some one already posted this. Hopefully Cesar is beginning to realize the error of his ways.

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

What the heck......... How can they combine both methods in one book? They totally contradict one another

 

[Kat09Tails]

Listen, I don't expect everyone to agree with me about this but:

There are as many training philosophies as there are dog owners. Some will mesh kindly together and others just plain will not. I appreciate the idea that perhaps a new book out there will acknowledge that no one school of thought is perfect and that dog training is about adaptation towards a goal.

I'll read any book on dog training to see what of value the thoughts brought up, just as I'll listen to a seminar from anyone who has a performance record worth sniffing at. Break down the information they're communicating and how it actually works into training reality and if it is useful information use it and if it's not throw it away. Simple as that.

 

[stardogs]

Dunbar and several other big names are included in the new CM book - Dunbar has gone on record as saying that while he may not agree with CM's methods he figured being a part of the book would give positive training more exposure and that is never a bad thing. The book is divided into sections for each trainer included I believe.

Link: My Contribution to Cesar Millan's New Book | Dog Star Daily

 

[Lizmo]

The book is divided into sections for each trainer included I believe.

If that is the case, it doesn't seem to different than a book I've got on stockdog stuff - many different handlers/trainers each with their own section.

Depending on the book, it might be one I check out.

 

[MandyPug]

It was on the 30% off rack at Wal-Mart, if i wasn't so against giving any money to that man i would pick it up to see what it's all about.

From that clip though Cesar didn't look too interested in Ian and Ian didn't look too thrilled either.

 

[BostonBanker]

I am fairly certain both of them were giving each other a mental middle finger through that conversation.

Call me a pessimist, but I see it as Cesar trying to increase his reader-ship to a new set of wallets. But it is early in the morning, and maybe I'm just grumpy.

 

[MandyPug]

Here's an excerpt:

From Chapter 8, Basic Instincts: How Dogs Teach Us

How did dog training really begin? Nobody knows for sure, of course, but in my mind’s eye I see a group of ancient humans and canines, roaming the plains together thousands of years ago and working cooperatively to find food, water, and safe shelter. Some people imagine that whatever the very first dog “trainers†did back over five thousand years ago involved some kind of force, but I’m not so sure about that. I’m more aligned with the theory that some more docile, doglike wolves ingratiated themselves with early humans as much as we co-opted them. I picture that first curious “psychologist†or behaviorist of dogs realizing that a playful puppy would do anything for a piece of food or a stick—and of course there were no pet stores back then! Maybe the puppy would bring some of those things back and the human would tug on them and entertain both himself and the puppy at the same time. So there were two of a dog’s biggest motivations right there on display—play drive and food drive.

And then, obviously, the dog’s strongest motivation was prey drive—how do I go out and work for my food? That was where these animals gave us our really important lessons. Whoever that pioneer “dog handler†may have been, I’ll bet you that his first thought wasn’t about all the different ways he could educate the animals. He wasn’t worrying about which leash to use, which theory to follow, or which treats to offer. I’m certain he was far more focused on finding out what those amazing proto-dogs were able to teach him. How did they work together to lead their pack to the closest prey? How did they track, stalk, surround, and take down the prey? How did they know to go in the direction of the nearest water? How could they be so alert to dangerous predators, long before the human sentries could hear a beast or an enemy coming near?

These early dog men and women may have realized something that modern dog owners and trainers sometimes forget—almost everything we are able to “train†a dog to do really derives from that dog’s natural instincts. Far beyond finding a better way to get a dog to sit or roll over or stop jumping on visitors at the door, it is my belief that the future of dog training will look more like the way this art and science might have begun—with our dogs, using their amazing inborn talents, teaching us.

So many of a dog’s abilities are far superior to the high-tech solutions we keep dreaming up when we try to copy what a dog does naturally. Our challenge in the future will be, not to teach the dogs to do what we want, but to learn from what they are already doing—and finding better ways to help them communicate their innate knowledge to us. And the beautiful thing is that our dogs want to work with us! That’s why it’s so crucial that we honor their instincts and help our dogs to fulfill their instincts. That is the real way to a well-behaved dog.

Cesar?s Rules: The Natural Way to a Well-Behaved Dog -- Excerpt 1 | Cesar Millan

ETA: Here's some of what Cesar says about reward based training:

To me, reward-based training to rehabilitate a dog is not natural. But to train a dog, it’s the best method. As long as the dog’s needs are met, promoting positive behavior with rewards is just another way to establish trust between you and the dog.

Cesar?s Rules?Training vs. Balance: What?s the Difference? | Cesar Millan

 

[MandyPug]

More excerpts:

From Chapter 3 Rewards, Punishment, and Everything in Between

Operant conditioning is such a key principle of animal behavior that it is a mainstay of human psychology as well. I asked my friend Dr. Alice Clearman Fusco, a psychologist and college professor, to break the concept down for me the way she would to one of her first-year students. “In a nutshell, with operant conditioning the dog is ‘operating’ in the world—he’s doing something—and there is a consequence,” Alice explained. “On the other hand, there is classical conditioning, which occurs when the dog isn’t doing anything and an event occurs in his environment that causes him to make a connection between things.”

We’ve all heard about “Pavlov’s dog.” What Pavlov did was ring a bell and put meat powder in a dog’s mouth. The dog soon associated the bell with food. Very soon the dog would salivate when he heard the bell—not normal behavior. That’s classical conditioning at work….

In operant conditioning, while an animal is doing something—engaging in a behavior—something good or bad happens. This gives the lesson that the behavior is desired or not desired. I have spent my life watching dogs interact with one another and with their environments. Operant conditioning is the way nature’s own classroom works. If a dog pokes his nose at a porcupine, he is operantly conditioned (punished) by the quills. If he turns over a trash can and finds a half-eaten cheeseburger, he is operantly conditioned (rewarded) by the food.

Many people don’t realize how easy it is to unintentionally use operant conditioning in their daily lives—and to end up with a dog doing the exact opposite of what they want it to do. “I always tell my clients, whether you intentionally or unintentionally do it, you are always reinforcing particular behaviors,” says Barbara De Groodt. “Even if it’s behavior you don’t like, it’s probably because you have unintentionally reinforced it. The classic example is the dog running to the door barking and the owner running behind it yelling, ‘Shut up, shut up, shut up!’ The dog sees it as the whole pack running to the door barking and thinks, ‘Oh, this is great!’”

With operant conditioning, there is positive and negative punishment and positive and negative reinforcement.

Punishment reduces behaviors and reinforcement increases them.

Note that the terms “positive” and “negative” are only about adding or subtracting. They have nothing to do with something being nice or not nice.

Cesar's Rules: The Natural Way to a Well-Behaved Dog -- Excerpt 2 | Cesar Millan

From Chapter 7: A World of Ways to Basic Obedience: Step-by-Step Instructions

Coming When Called

As our survey in Chapter 2 shows, the number-one most important thing for pet owners is having a dog that comes when called. Nothing is more maddening to most people than a dog that ignores them and only comes when she feels like it. In many cases, a frustrated owner will reprimand a dog after she does return. Dogs live in a world of cause and effect, so that pet has no clue why she is being yelled at. Now you have taught her that there is a negative association with coming in to your call. Next time she’ll be even more likely to play “keep away” when you call her to you. Catching a dog you’ve lost your temper with is not easy and makes you even madder, which further damages the bond between you and your dog. Thus, owners get caught in a downward spiral.

A dog that won’t come can be a danger as well. If you call your dog in a dangerous public situation near a road or other potential accident area, your panic, fear, anger, or other negative emotions may spill out through your voice, and you will give your dog more good reasons not to want to come to you, even when you know you’re calling your dog for her own good.

“There are many reasons a dog wants to come back to you,” says Martin Deeley. “This can be broken down into two basic emotions. The first, because she wants to, and the second, because she feels she has to. She hears the leash being taken from the hook for a walk, the food going into her bowl, and abracadabra—the magic recall with tail wagging. Or she hears you call and knows, ‘I had better go because if I don’t there will be consequences.’ Sometimes it is a little bit of both.”

Consistent recall is built on the relationship you have with your dog, the leadership qualities you possess, the pleasures and rewards you provide, the limits and boundaries you have set, the consequences for your dog of not doing as asked, and, most important of all, your dog’s innate desire to be with you—to be part of your team and your pack.

Cesar?s Rules: The Natural Way to a Well-Behaved Dog -- Excerpt 3 | Cesar Millan

From Chapter 6: Losing the Leash: Dr. Ian Dunbar and Hands-Off Dog Training

Junior Learns English as a Second Language

“Before we start,” Ian began, “my grandfather taught me that touching an animal is an earned privilege. It’s not a right.” I smiled, feeling even more at ease. There was one more thing that this charming Englishman and I had in common—grandfathers who shared with us their wisdom in the ways of Mother Nature. “And the most dangerous part on a dog is that red thing around his neck.” He gestured at Junior’s collar. “About twenty percent of dog bites happen when the owner touches that. Happens when an angry owner grabs a collar and gets in the dog’s face—‘You bad dog.’” Ian had spent several years researching the causes and effects of domestic dog aggression, so he knew his statistics.

To avoid that potentially volatile situation, Ian uses a treat in hand as a temperament test. “I take a little time. See, I don’t know Junior. He has no reason to like me. So I want to make sure he’s okay. If Junior here takes the treat, I say, ‘Gotcha. We’re off and running. We’re gonna work with you today.” As Junior took the treat from his hand, Ian took Junior’s collar in the other, then repeated those two motions a few times. Ian was conditioning Junior to associate his hand with the pleasant experience of getting the treat. This kind of association can also be a lifesaver, he added.

“You know, we could have an emergency: he could be jumping out the car window on the freeway, and I grab his collar quickly. He’s not going to react by biting me; his first thought is, ‘Where’s my treat?’”

Ian explained to me that his process begins with a very simple four-part sequence: (1) request, (2) lure, (3) response, and (4) reward.

“So we say, ‘Junior. Sit.’ That’s number one, the request. And then we lift the food up.” Ian bent his arm at the elbow and lifted the treat lure up above Junior’s head. “Now his butt goes on the ground. That’s the response. So now, ‘Good boy. Take it.’ We reward.”

Ian then asked Junior to stand, moving his hand with the treat slightly over to the side. “When he stands, we say, ‘Good boy,’ and then we give him the treat.” Ian repeated this sequence one more time, with Junior responding nicely.

I noticed that Ian would hold the treat right up against Junior’s teeth but wouldn’t give it to him right away. “The longer you hold on to it,” he explained, “you reinforce this really nice, calm, solid sit-stay.”

Junior was doing just great with the sit-and-stand routine. Next, Ian gave Junior a much tougher assignment—the “down.”

Cesar's Rules: The Natural Way to a Well-Behaved Dog -- Excerpt 4 | Cesar Millan

 

[Linds]

I think it sounds like an interesting book and I definitely will read it.

I think way too much time and energy is wasted hating different trainers, methods and finding fault in every little thing they do. There are a good number of trainers that overall I don't particularly like or agree with. But, I can't think of a single trainer that I can't take something away from what they do, say or teach from Kohler to Kikospup on youtube and everyone one in between. You don't have to worship or hang on every word of someone to be able to tip your hat and say "I may not have done it that way but by golly it worked"

I like Cesar. I wouldn't approach most things the same way he does but that doesn't mean I flat out dismiss everything he says and does. That's just as bad as blindly following someone without ever questioning or thinking for yourself

But no matter, I'll get off my soap box now. I'm not trying to preach to anyone or debate; this is just something that has weighing on my mind

 

[release the hounds]

Great words Linds. I agree

 

[Dekka]

I can dislike (hate is a bit strong) someone who promotes abuse of dogs, encourages people to do dangerous things with dogs. Who runs around saying the earth is flat (I am all for various training methods, but please can we get out of the dark ages.. what he says doesn't match up with the biology of dogs)

I personally have met dogs that are in rescue because the people tried to dominate the dog into good behaviour. The dogs escalate and end up in rescue. If these people had simply trained the dog to behave how they wanted the problem wouldn't have arisen.

 

[Lizmo]

I think it sounds like an interesting book and I definitely will read it.

I think way too much time and energy is wasted hating different trainers, methods and finding fault in every little thing they do. There are a good number of trainers that overall I don't particularly like or agree with. But, I can't think of a single trainer that I can't take something away from what they do, say or teach from Kohler to Kikospup on youtube and everyone one in between. You don't have to worship or hang on every word of someone to be able to tip your hat and say "I may not have done it that way but by golly it worked"

I like Cesar. I wouldn't approach most things the same way he does but that doesn't mean I flat out dismiss everything he says and does. That's just as bad as blindly following someone without ever questioning or thinking for yourself

But no matter, I'll get off my soap box now. I'm not trying to preach to anyone or debate; this is just something that has weighing on my mind

This bears repeating.

 

[Doberluv]

I can dislike (hate is a bit strong) someone who promotes abuse of dogs, encourages people to do dangerous things with dogs. Who runs around saying the earth is flat (I am all for various training methods, but please can we get out of the dark ages.. what he says doesn't match up with the biology of dogs)

I personally have met dogs that are in rescue because the people tried to dominate the dog into good behaviour. The dogs escalate and end up in rescue. If these people had simply trained the dog to behave how they wanted the problem wouldn't have arisen.

This^^^

It is completely illogical of Cesar to differentiate between training and rehabilitating. He says for training, positive reinforcement and reward is fine. For "rehabilitating," it isn't. That is simply false. Rehabilitating IS training. It's all about teaching a dog a new way to view things and behave. The dog still operates, thinks and learns in the same way regardless of whether it's rehabilitating or training obedience tricks. A dog is still a dog regardless of what we're trying to get across to him. A dog doesn't switch gears and the science of learning behavior doesn't change because we're teaching them different things. There are loads of trainers, myself included who modify behavior in dogs that have undesirable, sometimes dangerous behavior and who do NOT rely on or need "dominance, alpha, pack theory (ranking system)....force, intimidation, near strangulation, dragging, stomping toward, neck jabbing and all the rest of Cesar's "ways."

To think of taking some of what Cesar says and finding a use for it makes no sense to me. Any rare thing he says that might happen to line up with a dog's natural way of being or a dog's way of understanding, is something you can find in any number of other, non confrontational trainers. Why dig around through a rotten salad to find a scanty few good pieces of lettuce when you can turn around and find loads of fresh, healthy salads that have no rotten parts?

 

[lizzybeth727]

Call me a pessimist, but I see it as Cesar trying to increase his reader-ship to a new set of wallets.

^^This, definately. I think Cesar's using Ian to get the attention of some more-positive trainers who are still on the fence about Cesar. If you like Ian, you'll be more likely to like Cesar knowing that Ian has contributed to his book.

And it wouldn't be too hard for Ian to come up with common ground with Cesar. I mean, all trainers talk about how important it is to exercise your dog, and of course Cesar does too. A lot of trainers talk about how important it is to be a good leader for your dog, and Cesar does too. There is certainly a lot of common ground between the two of them.

IMO, though, just because there is a lot of common ground doesn't mean I have to support someone who is abusive to dogs, which I believe Cesar is.

 

[BostonBanker]

Even if you don't think he's encouraging abuse, the thing is, any of the stuff of Cesar's I can say "sure, I can agree with that to an extent" (mostly that people don't exercise their dogs enough - but then, I don't agree with exhausting them as he does either), I can get from other trainers who teach a lot of other stuff I like as well. He isn't offering me a single new thing that I am willing to do with my dog. I see no real reason to sit there and the 1% of "good" out of what he teaches, when I can listen to the trainers I like, and get 90% good from them.

He isn't offering anything revolutionary that is going to make my life and my dog's better. And because I agree with so very little, I don't even find him inspiring. I can listen to or read other trainers, and come out of it with plans and thoughts and "oh my god, I can't wait to get back to my dog and work on this!". He just makes my stomach hurt, and makes me go back to my dog and cuddle her.

 

[release the hounds]

you guys gotta be kidding me, seriously, you think Cesar is "using" Ian to get more publicity???? where's the rolling laughing guy smiley when you need it.

I have never read a milan book, but I'd be willing to guess out of the two names, he's not the one with a problem selling books

 

[Dekka]

Actually Dr Dunbar doesn't need to sell books from what I know. He is in huge demand for speaking etc but doesn't want to travel so much anymore. (I had the pleasure of attending one of his seminars) He is pretty much 'retired' had his TV show, etc.

From talking to him and reading his articles I totally can see him doing this not for any monitary gain but to help mitigate what Milan says. He is passionate about treating all animals with respect and positive reinforcement. (humans too) He speaks strongly of setting dogs up to succeed and socializing the hell out of puppies.

To me he is the polar opposite of Milan. Milan teaches people to see their dogs as adversaries where you must win against them or they will take over. A growl is a threat to your authority and MUST be punished! With Dunbar (who's seminars are often on aggression in pet dogs) its about fostering trust and training the dog to behave the way you wish and to accept what you want it to do. It is very NON adversarial. At no time are you expected to see the dog in a battle to see who can pay the mortgage.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Honestly, I don't feel like this book can make up for the filth that Cesar has spread amongst soooo many dog owners... I have to deal with dogs who are basically ruined by their owners using his methods. It is a constant and frightening reminder of just how much of an impact one highly publicized person's philosophy (if you can call physically forcing a dog to do everything you want it to do and calling that a philosophy) can affect the lives of so many people and their dogs in a scary way. My own friend's dog recently bit me - all because they are too devout and close-minded and think Cesar is the ONLY way, and their dog went from being mildly guardy when they adopted him to guarding everything in sight because they take everything away from him, hang him and "alpha roll" him for 10 minutes straight on a daily basis. All they needed to do was play to trading game with him and not set him up for failure, rather than leaving trash and food everywhere. In that case, rewards COULD have rehabilitated that dog, but it's so much easier to just choke a dog out and call that submission. The fact that in the excerpts he STILL denies that positive reinforcement can rehabilitate a dog and correct behavioral issues is proof that he accepts that you can teach a dog tricks with rewards and without the use of force, but that's all it's good for in his misguided, uneducated view.

On one hand, I hope that this book encourages CM followers to use positive reinforcement... but the more I read about it and see, the clearer it becomes that this is simply an effort to appease everyone who is criticizing him and hurting his profits. I would much rather the world knew how truly dangerous his methods are and how simply and peacefully you can train your dogs and change the way they behave and think without waging a war against your dog.

 

[elegy]

Milan teaches people to see their dogs as adversaries where you must win against them or they will take over. A growl is a threat to your authority and MUST be punished!

i find this so sad and scary, especially when he's dealing with fearful and shy dogs. i can't watch his show anymore, because he so frequently reads body language so incorrectly. fear is not dominance. a fearful dog who is not doing something he is scared of is not being dominant. not not not.

here is ian dunbar's explanation of why he's participating in this book My Contribution to Cesar Millan's New Book | Dog Star Daily

I have always thought, that I can do so much more good for dogs by engaging those who use dog training techniques of which I strongly disapprove, rather than simply preaching to the choir.