Breeding for Performance Sports

showdawgz

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#61
Hmm.

Thats an interesting question Sizzle! :)

I would say Zip is more of a "true" Border Collie. Here's why; I think what makes a true Border Collie is working ability and breeding.

Also, just because Carlie has a knack for herding -since she's from show lines- doesn't mean she would produce more working offspring.
And that is where the split comes from. People cant see past the showline (or vice versa). Typically it is very rare to find a showdog that can do the work but IT DOES HAPPEN! Writing this conformation dog off does nothing but create a bigger split. Have you even thought maybe if this dog is doing well in the work why cant an appropriate stud be found that also has the drive to do the work. Therefore minimizing the split or even bringing both sides together.
 

adojrts

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#62
I'm going to probably rub a lot of people the wrong way in a second... that said....

I HATE the term 'Barbie Collie' and the term 'Sporter Collie'. I think it's just really unneeded and just kind of stupid and really just reflects poorly on the working people. What is wrong with just saying 'working bred' and 'bench bred'?

I mean, lab people don't say those fake labradors and then the field labs. they just say bench and field regardless of the way they feel about bench labs...

To me, regardless of your personal beliefs about what constitutes a breed and a good breeding program, you need to acknowledge that the 'other side' is putting more emphasis on other aspects of the breed. They don't see what they're doing as wrong at all. You don't have to agree with them at all, that's not what I'm saying... I think bench bred border collies ARE border collies. They've been taken in a direction that I don't personally care for.

I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about lack of drives or why you don't agree with said breeding programs but at the end you really just have to agree to disagree.

I'm a fan of working border collies, but the attitude is very off putting. Just a thought to some staunch working border collie advocates.

It just reminds me of high school cliques.
I agree, there doesn't have to be 'name calling'. But I am going to stick up for the attitude of 'working advocates'. It's based on concern and fear.....because so many working breeds have gone to the bench and never returned.
 

Lizmo

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#63
And that is where the split comes from. People cant see past the showline (or vice versa). Typically it is very rare to find a showdog that can do the work but IT DOES HAPPEN! Writing this conformation dog off does nothing but create a bigger split. Have you even thought maybe if this dog is doing well in the work why cant an appropriate stud be found that also has the drive to do the work. Therefore minimizing the split or even bringing both sides together.
Yes, it does very well happen. But from what Sizzle posted the dog wasn't able to win a Nation Finals (or something of that sort). But if we were to do this, would it not lower the standard for the working side of the breed? Since the dog is not able to perform like a working bred dog. Therefore reducing the bar for working breeds in order to have no split in the breed.

This is a very interesting subject :)

I apologies if I'm one of the "turn off" people, my posts in that thread weren't ment to come off as that way. I probably shouldn't have posted as much as I did.
 

jess2416

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#64
It's based on concern and fear.....
and thats great that there are advocates that are willing to stickup for a breed they love, and that they was to see everything done right for them, but its the attitude in how its being protrayed...and that is what is off putting..

ETA: IMO ;)
 
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PWCorgi

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#65
But from what Sizzle posted the dog wasn't able to win a Nation Finals (or something of that sort)
So your saying that the only working BCs that should be bred are the ones that win at national competitions??

But if we were to do this, would it not lower the standard for the working side of the breed?
I don't see how it would.
 

Lizmo

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#66
No, Sizzle said that it wasn't winning any big trials, only ones locally - which anywhere you live, isn't that many.

It would, though, I think. Because like we've establisted, you can't really have "the best of both worlds" per se. Winning in the ring, and winning on the trial field (in big trials like Bluegrass, Nation Finals, Soldier Hollow etc.) When I say "winning" I don't mean winning it all, but just placing.

So if -this hypothetical dog- were to excell at both herding and showing, but couldn't place well at big trials, would it not be lowering the standard for solely working dogs?
 

adojrts

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#67
and thats great that there are advocates that are willing to stickup for a breed they love, and that they was to see everything done right for them, but its the attitude in how its being protrayed...and that is what is off putting
But there are attitudes on the show side as well, right? I have certainly met countless people that can't keep the comtempt out of their faces or voices for a working dog that doesn't have the prefect show coat etc.
Which is the point, that if more breeders did both and had dogs that could excell at both then both sides would be happy.....but until then.
I am an advocate for a dog that CAN do it all, while not compromizing health and temperament.
 

jess2416

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#68
But there are attitudes on the show side as well, right? I have certainly met countless people that can't keep the comtempt out of their faces or voices for a working dog that doesn't have the prefect show coat etc.
Which is the point, that if more breeders did both and had dogs that could excell at both then both sides would be happy.....but until then.
I am an advocate for a dog that CAN do it all, while not compromizing health and temperament.
I dont know... I cant say.. I know that its more than like NOT meant to come off that way, I was just stating how it was coming off TO ME... which is why I meant to say IMO ;)

I dont know enough about the confo/working aspect of it, thats why I only commented about the "attitude"...

Sooo please dont think that I have a problem with any of them, because I really dont.. :)
 
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adojrts

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#69
No, Sizzle said that it wasn't winning any big trials, only ones locally - which anywhere you live, isn't that many.

It would, though, I think. Because like we've establisted, you can't really have "the best of both worlds" per se. Winning in the ring, and winning on the trial field (in big trials like Bluegrass, Nation Finals, Soldier Hollow etc.) When I say "winning" I don't mean winning it all, but just placing.

So if -this hypothetical dog- were to excell at both herding and showing, but couldn't place well at big trials, would it not be lowering the standard for solely working dogs?
I think that would completely depend on the dog, if the dog was an excellent working dog but didn't win at the large shows for conformation, I would still consider that dog for breeding or a pup from that dog depending on the bitch as well. Because judging its self is so subjective and the best dog doesn't always win.
I would have a hard look at that dogs pedigree and its littermates etc and then I would look at that dog to see if he would be a good cross on my bitch.
So no, I don't think it would mean lowering the standard of the working dog but then there are so many things to consider.
 

showdawgz

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#70
Yes, it does very well happen. But from what Sizzle posted the dog wasn't able to win a Nation Finals (or something of that sort). But if we were to do this, would it not lower the standard for the working side of the breed? Since the dog is not able to perform like a working bred dog. Therefore reducing the bar for working breeds in order to have no split in the breed.

This is a very interesting subject :)

I apologies if I'm one of the "turn off" people, my posts in that thread weren't ment to come off as that way. I probably shouldn't have posted as much as I did.

There are many working line dogs who cant do the work as well. I would take a showline with exceptional working ability over a working dog who does mediocre work. But it all comes down to taking off the blinders and see the dog for what it is, what abilities that individual dog posesses and what traits might be passed on to its offspring.

There will always be a split, unfortunately, but just looking at its titles (champion versus working) and basically calling all of them crap is only going to make it worse. If you prefer working dogs then thats what you get, but being closed-minded about ALL showdogs will exxagerate the split even more. Before you know it there's going to be a civil war within a specific breed. I can just see the showdown now :p
 

Laurelin

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#71
I agree, there doesn't have to be 'name calling'. But I am going to stick up for the attitude of 'working advocates'. It's based on concern and fear.....because so many working breeds have gone to the bench and never returned.
To me, it's the attitude. I see absolutely no need for name calling no matter what side of the fence you're on. I've seen it from both sides of the fence depending on the forum/real life situation. Lately I just see it a lot with the border collie debates.

I have NO problem with anyone being advocates for what they think is right as far as their breeds go. I admire people that try to keep working lines intact. I just don't see a need for name calling. I also wish more people would look at the entire situation for what it is. There are a lot of people that like to 'regurgitate' what they hear. This varies as well and both sides are guilty.

All I ask is that people research. One issue that I used to spout verbatim is labradoodles. I used to have the same knee jerk anti doodle reaction that many people have. Since then I've reformed my opinion especially after seeing them work and looking at some reputable breeders. While the majority aren't good breeders, some are trying and i think that's important to acknowledge.

There are so many ideas slung around that are ridiculous...

The idea that showing is everything and if you don't show then you're not a good breeder- ridiculous.

Then the idea that everyone who breeds show bred dogs is only showing and only looking at aesthetics- also ridiculous.

There is the thought that all show dogs are watered down versions of the real thing with no drive- not true.

Terms like 'Barbie collie' and talking about 'ring prancers' is not going to solve anything. You want to talk about issues you find then put it in specifics.

I don't care when people talk specifics- working dogs lacking type or show dogs lacking drive, but when people start calling each other's dogs useless or ugly, then it's just silly and immature.


But it all comes down to taking off the blinders and see the dog for what it is, what abilities that individual dog posesses and what traits might be passed on to its offspring.

There will always be a split, unfortunately, but just looking at its titles (champion versus working) and basically calling all of them crap is only going to make it worse. If you prefer working dogs then thats what you get, but being closed-minded about ALL showdogs will exxagerate the split even more.
This is basically what I'm trying to say.

The truth of the matter involving show dogs is that there ARE people showing (in some breeds a whole lot!) that do way more than just show. They produce well rounded dogs that never get recognized by some people who always balk at show dogs.

Also, to play devil's advocate which I always enjoy doing obviously.... you say many dog breeds go to showing and never return. This is true, but couldn't you say that if the breed was still needed to do it's original job then there would still be some form of working line? If the job is obsolete isn't the breeders' job to make do with what performance/conformation we have and go from there doing the best they can?

Breeding is not and will never be black and white. You're never going to agree with everyone in your breed's idea of the 'perfect specimen'. People emphasize what they feel the most important. In a breed where I can have it all, I want it all. In others then I must, too, decide what I deem the most important. I'll disagree with some people and I really think that's okay...
 

Paige

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#72
If I am one of those turn off people I am sorry, but brace yourself if you want to get into this breed because you are going to hear a lot worse. I get it all the time which is why I am probably coming across as bitter. I phrased some things wrong in a few previous posts that probably made me come across as a bit of a butt wad. Sorry! But those still are my opinions.

This whole thread makes me think of all the little old men who tell me about their Border Collies from their childhoods. They never speak of the dogs outer beauty. Most don't seem to recall what the dog looks like. If they do, I will never know because they never talk about it. They talk about the dogs brain. It's instinct. For the love of these dogs keep them the way our forefathers meant them to be. When I'm old and grey I can't wait to tell some youngster out with theirs the tales about my dog and how he was better than the help of ten men.
 

Laurelin

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#73
If I am one of those turn off people I am sorry, but brace yourself if you want to get into this breed because you are going to hear a lot worse.
It wasn't you, it was just in general. Though, I hear a LOT. It's a HUGE turn off.

I can agree with someone on every point but if its worded a certain way then I really don't want to listen to a word they say and may just in fact argue to make a point. It's the way I am.

I however won't not get a border collie because the breed has so many messed up politics. I'll do my research and get a dog from the source I deem the best for me and that's all I can ask of anyone really.

ETA: And I'm not going to become anti AKC or anti showing because I'm getting a dog from a breed with such a split. I think showing has it's place and is very important in many cases. I'll never not be proud of Beau's AKC Ch and yes I hope to show more dogs in the future.

Luckily I have a thick hide.

But don't worry, my BC will most likely be a rescue of indeterminate breeding. ;)
 
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Paige

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#74
You need a thick hide for sure but the dogs are worth it. I have met a few of each type. Not all conformation bred ones are stupid. I will admit I have yet to meet one who's even mediocre when it comes to herding but that doesn't make them stupid. I've met a few crazy, no off switch ones who do sports but that, from what I picked up on, is just a result from not being worked enough. I've met working bred ones who are terrors because they are locked up all the time. I've also met wonderful dogs from every division of the breed. Do I always agree with their pedigrees? No. Usually I don't. Most are lovely dogs with lovely owners who don't mean the breed any harm even if in my opinion they are causing it. If there weren't so many unwanted Border Collies in shelters I doubt I'd even care at all.
 

Laurelin

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#75
You need a thick hide for sure but the dogs are worth it. I have met a few of each type. Not all conformation bred ones are stupid. I will admit I have yet to meet one who's even mediocre when it comes to herding but that doesn't make them stupid. I've met a few crazy, no off switch ones who do sports but that, from what I picked up on, is just a result from not being worked enough. I've met working bred ones who are terrors because they are locked up all the time. I've also met wonderful dogs from every division of the breed. Do I always agree with their pedigrees? No. Usually I don't. Most are lovely dogs with lovely owners who don't mean the breed any harm even if in my opinion they are causing it. If there weren't so many unwanted Border Collies in shelters I doubt I'd even care at all.
Honestly in the shelters you are VERY unlikely to find a dog of any decent breeding. Certainly not a conformation bred dog. The borders we get I'm pretty sure are either dogs bred by local farmers sold to pet homes or just pet bred dogs. To me the latter is the most damaging and the biggest problem right now.

I think it'd be silly for anyone to have to agree on every breeding! We all have our preferences (and I certainly have mine). There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Honestly, right now I worry about are the dogs produced healthy and sound? Do they have good screened homes lined up where they will hopefully stay forever? Do the breeders take back their dogs so they don't end up in shelters? And hopefully are they being bred for some reason other than companionship? (This is important to me to limit the breeding program. Indiscriminate breeding is a big no for me)

Past that its personal preference really.

Working in a shelter has really changed my outlook on a lot of things.
 

Paige

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#77
Oh I fully agree! I like to see ethical breeders. Specifics do matter to me, but at the same time I think there are bigger fish to fry before we battle that one out.
 

Paige

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#78
The breed had better be worth it or else I'm tracking down all you border collie people and calling you all liars. ;)
If that's the case I'll give you my address and you can come up to Canada, kick down my door and give me an earful.

:lol-sign:
 

ihartgonzo

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#79
Laurelin, I totally understand what you're saying... if people are putting down others, and or their dogs directly, that IS wrong.

I'm not going to say I have never used the terms "Barbie" or "Sporter" Collie. But, honestly, it's just a way of describing the breeding of the dogs. I would never declare to some one's dog, "Ugh, that's such a Barbie Collie." That is rude.

Honestly, the vast majority of breeds with a split are not anywhere near as severe as Border Collies. They're a special case. So much so that even the national breed club will UNREGISTER your dog if it gets an AKC Championship. There are few other breeds who base their breed entirely upon working style, hence the massive split in working and show people. Border Collies have also been pretty recently recognized by the AKC, and working people are trying to fight it. Which could help to explain why there isn't such a radical split in show/working Labs, or other breeds.
 

SizzleDog

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#80
So much so that even the national breed club will UNREGISTER your dog if it gets an AKC Championship
And void/refuse to recognize all previously earned performance and herding titles. IMO that's sad. The dog EARNED those titles, and IMO a "Ch." in front of the dog's name doesn't automatically send an electrical signal to the brain saying, "oops, you're a champion now - you now cannot do anything but prace around a show ring, and shall never be recognized for anything else."

I know someone who was the victim of this. The dog was a herding dog, agility dog, flyball dog. Dog was going to be shown within a few points of their AKC championship to prove that she WAS a lovely dog. But the owner miscalculated the points and the dog took a 4 point major instead of a three... and the dog finished. All the other titles her owner had worked so hard on... poof, disappeared. It was really a shame.
 

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