Breeding for Performance Sports

Lizmo

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#41
I totally disagree with breeding for sport, it serves only, at least in the world of bc's, to produce dogs that are neurotic, hyper, have no ability to settle, and more often than not end up in rescue because the family that bought the pup in the first place can't handle the dog and turns it over to rescue...which is exactly what happend to my pup Whim at 10 wks of age! Although he is not neurotic, he is very high drive, and can settle in the house only because I've taught him how to.
People who tout agility/flyball titles as proof of a dog's "breedability" scare me. To me, there is nothing about those titles that set them apart from a billion other dogs..


A good solid working-line Aussie IS the perfect performance dog. The way they're put together and what they were originally bred for means that they can excell in anything from flyball, Rally, agility, etc. They've got the total package and I wish people would keep to that.
Agreed, both of you. And the Aussie thing goes for Border Collies too. I, too, wish people would leave the breed (whether Aussie or Border Collie, I don't know much about Aussies) alone and admire and respect the breed for what it is - a WORKING dog.

I am pretty much against breeding Performence dogs. Showing is a different thing, though. Showing for somes breeds in great, but for others it's not. And I dislike how if a breeder/breed doesn't show their dogs, they are atomatically written off by some people.
 

Laurelin

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#42
As for Trial Labs... thats not hunting either. A hunting dog book will typically warn the reader for getting a Trial Lab for a hunting dog; almost as strongly as they warn against Show- Only Labs. A lot of the Pointer trials are run from horseback, which is great if you have giant fields and a horse, but not so good for most people.
That's what I mean. A lot of people show trial labs as 'field labs' and I really don't think that should be the case.

Anyways, for breeds where the original purpose is obsolete I'd hope a breeder would breed for a total dog, not just one sport.

I have a very performance bred dog, but his parents did multiple sports and did conformation as well. That's the way I'd prefer to see it.
 

SizzleDog

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#43
And I dislike how if a breeder/breed doesn't show their dogs, they are atomatically written off by some people.
I agree. But, I also dislike how if a breeder/breed DOES show their dogs, they're automatically written off by some people. ;)
 

Zoom

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#46
^^x4

Ok, not really, I just wanted to get in on the action. ;)

I guess I sort of agree, though I think I'm a little skewed/biased because I'm looking at this through the lens of Aussies.
 

Paige

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#47
^Same here Zoom. Conformation bred BCs are not what I consider to be a true BC. I would never purchase one from a breeder. I wouldn't hesitate to adopt one if the chance ever came up and I was smitten with the dog but I think that would be the only time I'd ever get a non working bred BC.
 

SizzleDog

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#49
Conformation bred BCs are not what I consider to be a true BC.
Interesting point of view! :) Here's a hypothetical question... Which of these "made up" BCs is the "true" BC?

DOG A: Zip is a puppy from a working breeder. His parents are top ranked trial dogs, and also work on the farm every day. However, Zip is a pet quality puppy, as he does not show as much promise in herding as his pedigree would normally produce. He is not a dog that will ever see a herding trial, he just doens't have it in him. His littermates show more promise, but every litter has a puppy or two that don't seem to have inherited their good working genes from the parents.

DOG B: Carlie is a Border Collie from show lines, and she is a finished champion. Her sire is the #2 Border collie in the AKC. Her dam is a champion, and a very pretty dog as well. Now, Carlie is very special - she has a knack for herding! We're not just talking AKC trials here, she really has a gift for being able to move and control stock. No, she's not going to be winning any national herding trials, but she does very well locally.


Okay... which one is a "true" BC? Zip or Carlie?
 

Lizmo

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#50
Hmm.

Thats an interesting question Sizzle! :)

I would say Zip is more of a "true" Border Collie. Here's why; I think what makes a true Border Collie is working ability and breeding.

Also, just because Carlie has a knack for herding -since she's from show lines- doesn't mean she would produce more working offspring.
 

Paige

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#51
I was speaking in general terms. I'm sorry for that actually. It wasn't fair to the dogs that are able to conform to the physical standard and are incredible at herding. Sorry puppies!

I could care less if a dog can win in the ring if it's lacking what it should have out in the field. However, if the dog can succeed in both the breeder has my full support. I think that would be amazing. I honestly wish I saw more of it. Now that would be cool.
 

Paige

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#52
Also dogs don't have to succeed at trials to be great farm dogs. I have met tons of dogs who will never step foot in a trial ring but are more worthy to be bred then most that do. They are doing what their ancestors did day in and day out. Now those are dogs to be admired.
 

ihartgonzo

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#53
Okay... which one is a "true" BC? Zip or Carlie?
Personally, I would not be interested in a puppy from either parent.

Technically, what defines a "true" Border Collie is the dog's working style, alone. Even a fluffly conformation BC is just as much a Border Collie, if they have the appropriate drive and style to work like one. However, I would not buy a puppy from Carlie because, if for generations back in her pedigree the dogs were strictly show dogs and never proven on stock, her working ability could be a complete fluke. However, as long as her style is consistent with how a BC should work, and as long as she herself is not an AKC CH, she could be ABCA registered. I would not buy a puppy from Zip because he is a pet quality puppy... low-drive puppies happen, even in litters from dogs who work every day. That doesn't mean he is not a true BC, it means he should not be bred.
 

Laurelin

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#54
I'm going to probably rub a lot of people the wrong way in a second... that said....

I HATE the term 'Barbie Collie' and the term 'Sporter Collie'. I think it's just really unneeded and just kind of stupid and really just reflects poorly on the working people. What is wrong with just saying 'working bred' and 'bench bred'?

I mean, lab people don't say those fake labradors and then the field labs. they just say bench and field regardless of the way they feel about bench labs...

To me, regardless of your personal beliefs about what constitutes a breed and a good breeding program, you need to acknowledge that the 'other side' is putting more emphasis on other aspects of the breed. They don't see what they're doing as wrong at all. You don't have to agree with them at all, that's not what I'm saying... I think bench bred border collies ARE border collies. They've been taken in a direction that I don't personally care for.

I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about lack of drives or why you don't agree with said breeding programs but at the end you really just have to agree to disagree.

I'm a fan of working border collies, but the attitude is very off putting. Just a thought to some staunch working border collie advocates.

It just reminds me of high school cliques.
 

bcmoffatt

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#58
Also Applauding....

But maybe that's because I have one of those worst-of-the-worst Sporter Collies from flyball/agility lines (who happens to be sleeping on my feet and not bouncing off the ceiling like a neurotic mess). :rolleyes:

I pretty much steer clear of politics in general. It's not any of my business what somebody else wants in a dog. As long as they're responsible about it...
 

Laurelin

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#59
Also Applauding....

But maybe that's because I have one of those worst-of-the-worst Sporter Collies from flyball/agility lines (who happens to be sleeping on my feet and not bouncing off the ceiling like a neurotic mess). :rolleyes:

I pretty much steer clear of politics in general. It's not any of my business what somebody else wants in a dog. As long as they're responsible about it...
I try to, but it gets hard sometimes, lol. One some forums its very 'in' to have a show dog and anyone getting a dog from a non show breeder is hounded. On others if you show or advocate showing to any extent then you're wrong. I can go from one debate defending the field lab to another on another forum defending show dogs...

I have my preferences and my thoughts on the matter of course and I am very opinionated. There is a difference between stating your opinions on a subject and explaining your stance and then belittling others and what they do. Some people are very informative and great at this from whatever side of the 'split' they're on and others just seem to want to rub it in your face at how right they are and how wrong you are. I don't think they know they're coming off this way, but they do come off this way.

But really, this happens in all hot button topics on dog forums- training methods, designer dogs, feeding... C'mon people, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. What works for one person or one situation is not going to work for them all. If anything, I know that with certainty.

I'm at the point where I don't care what your breeder really breeds for as long as its something and is done responsibly. Get the dog breed and line that best suits you. Research, get the dog that fits your life and take good care of it!
 

adojrts

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#60
Sizzle for me, neither dog ...both in my opinion should be culled from breeding........
There are several problems in breeding performance dogs as I see it (notice I didn't say it shouldn't be done lol).
First is when the breeders don't have a high enough value on genetic testing, proper structure, temperament (not the latest fad in the show ring) and the fact so many breeders try to change the breed i.e breeding smaller or larger for a given jump height.
I have seen an alarming amount of Tollers lately that are almost dwarf looking, these dogs have been bred for agility and to have them in a lower jump height so they don't have to compete against the BC's and Kelpie's etc.
Over sized Yorkies (although not sure that isn't a problem compared to the teacups lol).
For working breeds, I think it is wise to chose a dog from strick working lines for performance.
But having said that as a breeder of Jrts, I want it all. I breed strickly working and prove my dogs by working (hunting) because I don't want to lose those drives. I am fairly knowledgable about my lines and other lines, therefore I don't want a working line that doesn't have an 'off switch'.
I want a dog that absolutely falls into the breed standard (thats the working standard of the JRTCA/CA/GB and the bonus is having dogs in my lines that have won conformation championships or Nationals but then our National Conformation Champions have to be proven working dogs.............
I want and do genetic testing, therefore trying to produce very healthy dogs.
I want speed and performance ability that is proven. And I want awesome temperaments. NONE of it should be compromized and it should all be equal.
When I look at my pedigree's, its not a mix of working/show/performance on different dogs, its a record of working/show/performance on EACH DOG. The only exception to that is some of the working/show dogs........but then they have produced performance dogs.......so its a win/win as far as I am concerned :D
I too have known people that have bred the Border Jacks, there are more litters being produced than I think some realize....and thats because we just don't ever see what was produced.......because the cross DIDN'T work.
When the pro's that want those dogs can't get them trained.......thats a problem. I know of one litter that was put down by 1 1/2 yrs, all of them. And that was kept pretty hush hush.
 

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