Breeding a Rescue (hypothetical question)
- Thread starter Brattina88
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So I asked, and I will also answer, since I have a litter on the way right now.
Yes, of course. She is AKC and CKC registered.
Yes. The sire is a multiple BIS BISS winner, the dam is a UKC/AKC CH, UKC/AKC CD titled, reg. therapy dog
Both dogs have CHIC numbers on file at the Orthopedic Foundation For Animals (OFA). In order to earn a CHIC number, a Rottweiler must have on record health testing (passing OR failing) for hips, elbows, heart, and eyes.
My bitch's virtues include very strong breed type, a lovely head, with an especially nice full muzzle and excellent cheek development for a bitch, good shoulder layback, firm level topline standing and moving, excellent correct heavy bone, good tight feet with thick firm pads, beautiful free side gait with excellent reach and drive, and firm topline, beautiful depth and width of chest, excellent body substance, nice short rear metatarsals ("hocks").
Her faults would include:
rounder and larger eye than is preferred
Mouth pigment could be better
Could use more length and return of upper arm
Could use more turn of stifle
Could be slightly tighter in elbows coming
Ear set could be better, it is slightly high, and ears could lie closer to the head.
Has a slight dip behind the withers
Falls slightly more at the croup than might be ideal
The stud dog is the top winning Rottweiler in the history of the breed. IMO, and that of many others, he is the finest specimen of this breed to ever walk on 4 legs. He is nearly flawless in breed type, structure, and movement. He does have some small amount of sootiness down the front of his pasterns on his forelegs. I'll take it.
I selected this dog for many reasons, not the least of which is that he is strong in nearly ALL her weak areas.
All of them, since they are doubled on.
The sire speaks for himself. His strongest virtue is his movement. He has MANY qualities that our breed needs badly.
The bitch is a Multi (UKC) BIS winner, a Multi (UKC) High In Trial winner, holder of 2 CH titles, two CD titles, the ATTS TT certification, along with Canine Good Citizen and Therapy Dog certs. She is an outstanding specimen of her breed, in the opinion of MANY esteemed judges, and her performance in the obedience rings, and her scores, speak for themselves.
That's my answer, and I'm sticking to it.
Yes, of course. She is AKC and CKC registered.
Yes. The sire is a multiple BIS BISS winner, the dam is a UKC/AKC CH, UKC/AKC CD titled, reg. therapy dog
Both dogs have CHIC numbers on file at the Orthopedic Foundation For Animals (OFA). In order to earn a CHIC number, a Rottweiler must have on record health testing (passing OR failing) for hips, elbows, heart, and eyes.
My bitch's virtues include very strong breed type, a lovely head, with an especially nice full muzzle and excellent cheek development for a bitch, good shoulder layback, firm level topline standing and moving, excellent correct heavy bone, good tight feet with thick firm pads, beautiful free side gait with excellent reach and drive, and firm topline, beautiful depth and width of chest, excellent body substance, nice short rear metatarsals ("hocks").
Her faults would include:
rounder and larger eye than is preferred
Mouth pigment could be better
Could use more length and return of upper arm
Could use more turn of stifle
Could be slightly tighter in elbows coming
Ear set could be better, it is slightly high, and ears could lie closer to the head.
Has a slight dip behind the withers
Falls slightly more at the croup than might be ideal
The stud dog is the top winning Rottweiler in the history of the breed. IMO, and that of many others, he is the finest specimen of this breed to ever walk on 4 legs. He is nearly flawless in breed type, structure, and movement. He does have some small amount of sootiness down the front of his pasterns on his forelegs. I'll take it.
I selected this dog for many reasons, not the least of which is that he is strong in nearly ALL her weak areas.
All of them, since they are doubled on.
The sire speaks for himself. His strongest virtue is his movement. He has MANY qualities that our breed needs badly.
The bitch is a Multi (UKC) BIS winner, a Multi (UKC) High In Trial winner, holder of 2 CH titles, two CD titles, the ATTS TT certification, along with Canine Good Citizen and Therapy Dog certs. She is an outstanding specimen of her breed, in the opinion of MANY esteemed judges, and her performance in the obedience rings, and her scores, speak for themselves.
That's my answer, and I'm sticking to it.
my dogs have wounderful temperments and nothing wrong with them. if your idea of a great dog means papers than so be it. and most people cant afford a dog with registration anyways yeah my first cost me $50 not $700 and breeding rights on top of that. and i love my dog(people can love a slightly imperfect dog(looks wise)). think what you want but you dont have to be rude about it
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BYBs are not always motivated by money. They are often one-time breeders breeding for no particular reason or a reason that is not about improving the breed, which is the only valid reason for breeding a litter.
You say you bred her once, you apparently have 3 puppies going to other homes on spay/neuter contracts. How does that improve your breed? It didn't, it doesn't, it won't.
There was no valid reason to breed her other than something you've concocted in your mind.
You say you bred her once, you apparently have 3 puppies going to other homes on spay/neuter contracts. How does that improve your breed? It didn't, it doesn't, it won't.
There was no valid reason to breed her other than something you've concocted in your mind.
I would never ever ever breed a rescue. It's not improving the breed and that's the purpose of breeding- plus, there is no room for pet quality dogs to be bred when millions of them are put to sleep every year. Dogs should be bred for a show or working purpose, and anyone who breeds a rescue dog and a pet quality one at that is not much of a rescuer in my eyes, and a BYB.
And there is an infinite difference between loving an "imperfect specimen" and and *breeding* an "imperfect specimen." I have 2 pet quality dogs and 2 purebred cats who I love with all my heart and more than most people, but I would never breed them. As an advocate of rescuing, responsible breeding, and spay and neuter, I would be going back on my word.
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In answer to the OP: NO. Nonononooooo. For all the reasons above-stated. I agree with you as well as all the other knowledgable people who have posted in this thread. I can't really add anything to it. :hail:
Thanks to The Backyard Breeders' & Puppy Millers' Big Book of Old Excuses.
15. Assure everyone that your dog does not need to be shown because you were assured by someone at Petsmart/the park/the vet's office/a friend that your dog is a perfect example of the breed.
21. If asked why you think your dogs are breeding quality, point out that they "have papers." Extra points awarded for using the phrase "AKC Certified." Double points if those papers come from the Continental Kennel Club. This also goes under Magenta.
24. Claim that none of the rules of ethical breeding apply to you because you only intend to have one litter and therefore aren't a "real" breeder.
24. Claim that none of the rules of ethical breeding apply to you because you only intend to have one litter and therefore aren't a "real" breeder.
8. Be sure to champion the right of poor people to breed dogs.
21. If asked why you think your dogs are breeding quality, point out that they "have papers." Extra points awarded for using the phrase "AKC Certified." Double points if those papers come from the Continental Kennel Club.
Interesting. You seem to refute that above, in Dark Orchid.
I'm waiting for this:
25. If all else fails, tell everyone who criticizes you to "get a life."
Personally, I think it's an odd variety of penguin. I could be wrong, though.
For all the reasons above-stated. I agree with you as well as all the other knowledgable people who have posted in this thread. I can't really add anything to it. :hail: Thanks to The Backyard Breeders' & Puppy Millers' Big Book of Old Excuses.
15. Assure everyone that your dog does not need to be shown because you were assured by someone at Petsmart/the park/the vet's office/a friend that your dog is a perfect example of the breed.
21. If asked why you think your dogs are breeding quality, point out that they "have papers." Extra points awarded for using the phrase "AKC Certified." Double points if those papers come from the Continental Kennel Club. This also goes under Magenta.
24. Claim that none of the rules of ethical breeding apply to you because you only intend to have one litter and therefore aren't a "real" breeder.
24. Claim that none of the rules of ethical breeding apply to you because you only intend to have one litter and therefore aren't a "real" breeder.
8. Be sure to champion the right of poor people to breed dogs.
21. If asked why you think your dogs are breeding quality, point out that they "have papers." Extra points awarded for using the phrase "AKC Certified." Double points if those papers come from the Continental Kennel Club.
Interesting. You seem to refute that above, in Dark Orchid.
I'm waiting for this:
25. If all else fails, tell everyone who criticizes you to "get a life."
Personally, I think it's an odd variety of penguin. I could be wrong, though.
I don't think anyone's idea of good breeding is all in the papers. Papers are only the tip of the iceburg when it comes to ethical breeding. And I'm sorry, but if someone can't afford one of my PAPERED puppies for $800, then how can I expect them to give the dog vet care and proper food and professional training it needs?
I will answer these questions according to my next litter (which I am VERY excited about!).
My bitch is CKC registered, will be AKC registered this year. The pups will be both CKC and AKC registered.
Currently Visa has her CGN and HIC and will finish her Canadian championship before she is bred and hopefully acquire a couple agility titles by then as well (the breeding is next year). The sire had his Canadian, American, and UKC Championship. He was a UKC Best in Show dog and also has his U-CD, CD (AKC), HS, and TT.
Visa has her hips and elbows OFA certified. Her eyes are CERF tested.
The sire had his hips OFA certified and his eyes CERF certified. He did not have his elbows as he was bred in the day and age when elbow testing for Belgians was not a common thing (he died several years ago).
Visa's good points:
PERFECT seemingly effortless movement from all angles with great reach and drive, perfect front and rear, never a foot out of place, good solid bone and body substance, level topline, beautiful sloping croup, well laid shoulders, perfect cat feet, great tail carriage, nice long neck, nice thick and straight coat, good pigment, eyes perfectly almond shaped and well set, head nicely chiseled and good even and parallel headplanes.
Visa's faults:
Half inch longer than tall (the standard calls for a square dog, but I have found every 100% square dog I've met to have poor movement due to short length of loin, so I actually prefer my dogs to be a bit longer than tall), coarser head, tail a bit short, bit too much grey on the muzzle (not a fault, just something I hate), eyes could be darker, coat could be harsher, ears could be set closer together.
To be completely honest I have never met the dog and so I have to rely on what others tell me, and so far most people have focused on his good temperament which is fine by me as I am breeding mostly for temperament and health above all else. His UKC Best in Show and UKC Ch tell me enough about his looks, as Belgians are very very hard to finish with UKC and have to be very typey to do so.
To be completely honest if I can keep what she has, I do not care if her faults are improved. They are so minor to detail and she has so much more important attributes. If I CAN improve them, GREAT, I'd love to have a much prettier head with tiny ears right up on top of it, and almost black eyes, and a nice looong tail. But if I can keep what I have without improving her faults I will still be happy. Her faults do not hinder her working ability, health, temperament, or structure in any way, and so they are not a priority for me.
All of it, but mostly health/temperament, movement and structure.
1. Health and temperament you do not see often these days. This is one of the healthiest pedigrees you will find and both parents have excellent temperaments. 2. Good working ability that is being bred out by many show breeders. These dogs will be able to be active in protection sport, which most groenendael can not do anymore. 3. Old lines. It is always good to bring old stuff back, especially when they remain in such good health.
I will answer these questions according to my next litter (which I am VERY excited about!).
My bitch is CKC registered, will be AKC registered this year. The pups will be both CKC and AKC registered.
Currently Visa has her CGN and HIC and will finish her Canadian championship before she is bred and hopefully acquire a couple agility titles by then as well (the breeding is next year). The sire had his Canadian, American, and UKC Championship. He was a UKC Best in Show dog and also has his U-CD, CD (AKC), HS, and TT.
Visa has her hips and elbows OFA certified. Her eyes are CERF tested.
The sire had his hips OFA certified and his eyes CERF certified. He did not have his elbows as he was bred in the day and age when elbow testing for Belgians was not a common thing (he died several years ago).
Visa's good points:
PERFECT seemingly effortless movement from all angles with great reach and drive, perfect front and rear, never a foot out of place, good solid bone and body substance, level topline, beautiful sloping croup, well laid shoulders, perfect cat feet, great tail carriage, nice long neck, nice thick and straight coat, good pigment, eyes perfectly almond shaped and well set, head nicely chiseled and good even and parallel headplanes.
Visa's faults:
Half inch longer than tall (the standard calls for a square dog, but I have found every 100% square dog I've met to have poor movement due to short length of loin, so I actually prefer my dogs to be a bit longer than tall), coarser head, tail a bit short, bit too much grey on the muzzle (not a fault, just something I hate), eyes could be darker, coat could be harsher, ears could be set closer together.
To be completely honest I have never met the dog and so I have to rely on what others tell me, and so far most people have focused on his good temperament which is fine by me as I am breeding mostly for temperament and health above all else. His UKC Best in Show and UKC Ch tell me enough about his looks, as Belgians are very very hard to finish with UKC and have to be very typey to do so.
To be completely honest if I can keep what she has, I do not care if her faults are improved. They are so minor to detail and she has so much more important attributes. If I CAN improve them, GREAT, I'd love to have a much prettier head with tiny ears right up on top of it, and almost black eyes, and a nice looong tail. But if I can keep what I have without improving her faults I will still be happy. Her faults do not hinder her working ability, health, temperament, or structure in any way, and so they are not a priority for me.
All of it, but mostly health/temperament, movement and structure.
1. Health and temperament you do not see often these days. This is one of the healthiest pedigrees you will find and both parents have excellent temperaments. 2. Good working ability that is being bred out by many show breeders. These dogs will be able to be active in protection sport, which most groenendael can not do anymore. 3. Old lines. It is always good to bring old stuff back, especially when they remain in such good health.
No, no, no.
Breeding a rescue is unethical no matter how you look at it. But my first thought is that no dog from a truly ethical breeder would wind up in a shelter or rescue, and certainly not a top notch, breeding quality dog.
Now, you might get dogs in rescue that could've made a positive contribution to the gene pool, but I would have to wonder about what kind of people would *choose* to breed them. Sorry, but the chances of a quality, breeding animal coming into rescue is very slim. Someone who would take chances on breeding a rescue is not the kind of breeder I would go to.
Breeding a rescue is unethical no matter how you look at it. But my first thought is that no dog from a truly ethical breeder would wind up in a shelter or rescue, and certainly not a top notch, breeding quality dog.
Now, you might get dogs in rescue that could've made a positive contribution to the gene pool, but I would have to wonder about what kind of people would *choose* to breed them. Sorry, but the chances of a quality, breeding animal coming into rescue is very slim. Someone who would take chances on breeding a rescue is not the kind of breeder I would go to.
That is not always true -- One of my co-breeder's first Belgian litters had a dog put in the SPCA. The owner passed away and the dog was left with his niece and nephew. These people actually worked with my co-breeder and knew she bred him but rather than give him back they dumped him at the SPCA. The SPCA never bothered to check his tattoo number and called her, since she does Belgian rescue, and said they have a Belgian they'd like her to foster. She checked the tattoo number and was shocked.
Same thing happened to me late last year. Gave a young dog to a couple in Alberta who train for drug/bomb detection and own an obedience training school, boarding kennel, and train and compete in protection sport. You'd think they'd be a good home, but instead hey resold her to a lady with children who later could not keep her because she was too prey driven and called a breeder, asking if she wanted her. The breeder took the tattoo number and was shocked to see that she bred the dog. Of course I rehomed her with full permission from the breeder and made the people sign a contract saying she would be returned to me if they could not keep her.
Sometimes it just isn't a perfect world, people don't always do what they say.
Same thing happened to me late last year. Gave a young dog to a couple in Alberta who train for drug/bomb detection and own an obedience training school, boarding kennel, and train and compete in protection sport. You'd think they'd be a good home, but instead hey resold her to a lady with children who later could not keep her because she was too prey driven and called a breeder, asking if she wanted her. The breeder took the tattoo number and was shocked to see that she bred the dog. Of course I rehomed her with full permission from the breeder and made the people sign a contract saying she would be returned to me if they could not keep her.
Sometimes it just isn't a perfect world, people don't always do what they say.
