BC breeders, Ontario-wise?

[showdawgz]

There is a HUGE conflict between work and sport dogs in MANY breeds, not just one .

I'm going to make a reference to something that I am more familiar with. Schutzhund dogs are great on the field, are known to be flashy and typically are worked mainly in prey drive (at least these days). Great for repitition as the routine is the same every time. Now just because a dog has a Sch title does not mean they will protect you in real life. A protection dog has to have the courage and temperament to actually fight a real threat and most schutzhund dogs will back down at the first sign of stress, but then some DO posess the proper drives to do both. It all comes down to genetics. Some dogs CAN do both (work and sport) whereas some can only do one or the other.

 

[PAWZ]

Do NOT go to a confirmation breeder that does not work her dogs, and I am not talking akc herding tests, agility, flyball or whatever. BCs are bred to work and should be bred for that reason only to parents that are working dogs, have working titles at open level or higher. OFA Good (minimum) and CERF -normal are a must, look for epilepsy in the line too as that is becoming more prevelent in the breed. AKC/CKC registered dogs are nice looking but instinct wise theres not usually a whole lot going on upstairs. Sport bred dogs can have some nice working lines behind them, but I dont believe in breeding a dog just because he/she is good at agility. Stick to the working dog, in a litter not every pup has the ability or desire to work and a good breeder can evaluate their pups for that desire/drive. I know of several breeders here in the US that breed working dogs that are in big demand from agility people.

 

[AllieMackie]

Hey all!

I'm the friend that Beanie was referring to - I've had an account here for a little bit, to watch threads, but never posted. Hello!

Since Beanie originally posted, I found a few other breeders that I've been in contact with. Amanda Milliken is nice, and her dogs seem of great working stock, with some of the offspring going flyball and agility here in Ottawa. She gave me references, which is great! But, her only litter this year, she said, is due next week - and I don't even have my new house until August, and would probably look for a pup withing the realm of Fall 2008-Winter 2008/2009.

I also contacted Margaret at Rival Kennels:

http://www.rivalkennels.com/index.htm

We had a good email chat, mostly figuring out if her dogs would be well-fitted to me - she breeds for both working and sport, seems like a lot of her offspring go to sport families. She said her dogs and their offspring are, with training, good at controlling their drive when inside the house, which is extremely important. Does anyone hyere know anything about her dogs, who might be able to offer some insight?

I've also emailed a few contacts I got from thew CBCA website, but not much else in the way of reputable responses yet.

Thanks for the suggestions and help so far!

 

[Sapphire-Light]

So how show BC are in comparation of the sportting and working ones?

I'm curious

 

[CharlieDog]

So how show BC are in comparison of the sporting and working ones?

I'm curious

Its been my experience that this sparks a lot of debate.

Mostly though, you are going to hear people say this;

Show line Border Collies are all fluffy, dead eyed clones. Not an ounce of instinct left in them, and no drive, blah blah blah. Seriously. Personally, it is a bit creepy how they all have the same markings, the same blaze up their nose, the same amount of white on their ruffs. Border Collies aren't supposed to look a certain way. Who cares if they are purple, as long as they can work stock?

The so called "sporting" line of Border Collies has also sparked a serious debate. Supposedly these are the Border Collies to blame for the prevalent theory that all Border Collies are maniacs with no off switch, and unless you have fifty acres and endless amounts of time to devote to making sure this type of dog is sufficiently exercised, don't ever ever get a Border Collie.

Then, we have the working line dogs. And, supposedly, this is the best route to go should you want a Border Collie for something other than amusing yourself watching it spin around in circles while you search frantically for a tennis ball. Working line dogs should be able to do everything a sport line dog can do. The opposite however, does not always hold true, in that sport line dogs can retain enough instinct to herd sheep, goats, whatever.

Working lines dogs have an off switch. Its up to the puppy buyer to make sure that is developed, and I'm not sure how much of the sport dog theory is due to the handlers, or the breeding. I don't know, I don't breed, and I have done minimal research on sport line breeders, mostly because I knew where I wanted my dog from.

That said however, not every working line dog has the temperament, the instinct or the drive to work stock. These dogs can and DO go on to make excellent sport dogs, companions, service dogs, and many other things.

Sport dog lines seem to be producing dogs with HUGE amounts of drive, and others with almost none. The latter usually gets placed in a pet home, and the former goes on to perpetuate the crazy Border Collie sport dog type.

Working line breeders and fanciers are upset because this is a breed whose only written standard should be a WORKING standard. Not a conformation one. As soon as you start selecting for any trait besides temperament, working ability, and drive to do the work(and in my opinion it should be in that order too), you lose that instinct. And you create dogs with the right shoulder set to trot around the ring, maybe, but you've created a Border Collie who can't do the work because now, his shoulder is to upright, and he would hurt himself if he had to do a 800+yard outrun to do a double lift on heavy stock. Thats my take on it anyway.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

 

[Paige]

Have you ever eaten fake meat? Looks like meat, can fool the eye but it doesn't fool your taste. That's how I always looked at it. No matter how nice they make that darn tofu look it never measures up to the real thing.

(ps- I'm having a meat craving right now. Darn veganism. Some times I really just want to bite into a huge steak!)

 

[Lizmo]

Hi Allie! Glad you could come on here.

Would you consider shipping a pup? Or flying to get a pup? That might open up your options some.

 

[AllieMackie]

I would rather have a breeder that's withing driving distance, since it makes things easier to keep in touch with the breeder, visit the breeder, etc.

Currently contacting Rival Kennels and Cedar Border Collies, since both breed fantastic dogs, by the looks of things, and offspring of both go to homes in similar situations as mine.

Any thoughts on those two? I'm arranging to go meet with them personally sometime next week or the week after.

 

[AllieMackie]

Oh, right, I already mentioned Rival Kennels above. Oops!

I also need to contact the OVBCC. I think there's a Flyball tourney this weekend, that I might be able to get to on the Sunday. I'd love to meet some locals and get their opinions. Plus, then I'll know more about the local events my dog and I could get involved in.

 

[Lizmo]

Just be careful, like said, with going to the dog sport tourney. Most of the breeders there are going to be breeding sport BCs, not working BCs.

But, me personally, I wouldn't go with either of those 2 breeders.

 

[SizzleDog]

My earliest experiences with the BC breed was through the type I call "Sporter Collies" - ohh how I learned to hate those Sporters, and their equally detestable owners! In fact, before coming to Chaz my idea of the BC breed had been poisoned by those dogs - BCs were my least favorite breed on the face of the planet.

My opinion on them has changed a lot, but I'm still highly critical of the BCs I meet - because there is one facet to the BC gene pool (BCs bred for Flyball) that I hate with ever fiber of my being. Not the dogs' fault of course, don't think I'm hating the dogs, it's not their fault - it's the breeders and enthusiastic owners of the Sporters that I can't stand.

The only BCs I've ever liked have been the ones from working breeders. If for some reason I ever started looking for a BC puppy, the LAST place I'd go to look would be a Flyball tourny, and by extension a breeder who does Flyball with their dogs. I think Flyball is just as detrimental to the BC breed as AKC conformation is. Except most people could live with an AKC conformation-bred BC - it's the sporting lines that I see packed in the shelters around here (and at least the conformation folks do health testing. In this area, sporter collie breeders will produce epilepsy, shoulder instability, deafness, hip dysplasia... then do a repeat breeding as if nothing was wrong.)

 

[AllieMackie]

Yeah, I know about the sport breeders, I'm mostly going to meet the local folks. And why wouldn't you go with either of these breeders, out of curiousity?

 

[AllieMackie]

SizzleDog - I've made it pretty clear that I'm steering clear of dogs bred only for sport. Most of the breeders I've been looking at, breed for a combination of working and sport - the dogs have a good mentality for sports, but don't have the ridiculous, non-stop drive that I've seen in BCs bred solely for sport.

A good breeder, to me, will breed offspring that do well in the sport world -and- the herding world, and have offspring in family homes that I can contact and inquire with. A good indicator of a dog's off-switch, in my opinion.

Seems to be a lot of opinionated hatred towards one type of breeder, then another, etc. I think what matters here is that I find a breeder I like, meet their dogs, and find out if the dog is a right match for my situation. I'm merely asking if anyone knows of a breeder, or has experience working with a breeder, who's dogs have the qualities I may be looking for in a pup, in the Ontario area.

 

[OutlineACDs]

Seems to be a lot of opinionated hatred towards one type of breeder, then another, etc. I think what matters here is that I find a breeder I like, meet their dogs, and find out if the dog is a right match for my situation. I'm merely asking if anyone knows of a breeder, or has experience working with a breeder, who's dogs have the qualities I may be looking for in a pup, in the Ontario area.

YAY! Finally someone talking some sense! Just go with what you like. Find a a breeder whose dogs are dogs YOU would want to live with.

No offense to anyone, but I get so tired of hearing sport vs. herding vs. conformation.

 

[Lizmo]

Allie, we aren't trying to bash all the breeders you've posted. Honest! This is a breed very near to my heart. I'm going to PM you something I hope you'll take a look at.

I just recently got a pup from a working kennel, and already he's got so much drive - off stock! I can't imagine what a "Sporter Collie" would have at his age.

Finally someone talking some sense! Just go with what you like. Find a a breeder whose dogs are dogs YOU would want to live with.

I'm not even going to touch that. . . .

 

[CharlieDog]

AHAHAHAHA. Sporter Collies.

What a dumb name. Now we've got Barbie's and Sporter's. Didn't Barbie have a friend named Sporty? Or am I completely off the mark??

 

[Lizmo]

Barbie's only friend was Ken (okay, shows you how much I know about Barbies! LOL)

 

[jess2416]

AHAHAHAHA. Sporter Collies.

What a dumb name. Now we've got Barbie's and Sporter's. Didn't Barbie have a friend named Sporty? Or am I completely off the mark??

There was a Sporty (in the spice girls) ROFLMAO

 

[CharlieDog]

Oh, lol. Okay then. It sounded familiar. Barbie had a friend named something else... Kelly? maybe?? I do know she had a girl friend.

 

[AllieMackie]

Allie, we aren't trying to bash all the breeders you've posted. Honest! This is a breed very near to my heart. I'm going to PM you something I hope you'll take a look at.

I just recently got a pup from a working kennel, and already he's got so much drive - off stock! I can't imagine what a "Sporter Collie" would have at his age.

Thanks for the PM! It helped a lot. And I know, you're not trying to bash. But hear out my side.

While I'm pretty new to the whole "find a reputable breeder to your breed" business (my border collie mix was a rescue), I've also been researching this ever since I found out I'd have a house for the dog. I've wanted a border collie for a number of years, beginning with when my old dog Fozzy started having joint issues and couldn't do agility anymore.

I -have- been mostly looking at working breeders. I also contact breeders that appear to be sport breeders, because websites are always decieving. I want to talk to the breeder directly, to find out about the drive their dog has, and whether the dog would be fitting to a home situation like mine.

The two current breeders I've been looking at, I chose to contact because they produce good dogs for working AND sports. The offspring are reputed sport dogs that go to family homes, their hips and eyes are certified, abd the registrations seem proper (although Cedar registers with AKC< which is a red flag, but they also haven't responded to my email yet).

I'm still waiting for a proper, "I've dealt with this breeder" opinion from anyone. If all I'm getting is "I wouldn't go to them because some of their dogs happen to do sports", then I'll be meeting with the breeder and their dogs myself to figure out if their dogs are a good match for me.

Not trying to be argumentive here, just explaining the process I've been going through thus far, and why I've chosen to contact specific breeders. I do appreciate the non-biased advice that people have posted here, based on their own experiences. It's nice to not feel like the dumb newbie. :X