Attack of the stupids/ The dog whisperer!

[Manchesters]

Well, the statement was made that Angelique has met Caesar. It would be interesting to know under what circumstances she met him.

Personally I think Caesar is blasted good at what he does. He gets results, and the dogs are happy little suckers when he is done with them. THAT is what counts........a dog that does what its owners need for it to do, and that comes out of the training a happy, secure, contented dog.

Love and praise will do wonders. So will understanding of the pack mentality of the dog!

 

[Manchesters]

And NO.......I am NOT Angelique!!!!!!!

We are in the process of having a good ole Florida thunderstorm moving in on us. Yipeeeee!!!!! Temp will go down!!!!!

 

[yuckaduck]

And NO.......I am NOT Angelique!!!!!!!

We are in the process of having a good ole Florida thunderstorm moving in on us. Yipeeeee!!!!! Temp will go down!!!!!

Never implied that at all, actually never crossed my mind. I just thought you seemed to have a few things in common and you might find this thread of interest. I also was interested in your opinion because I am in no way familiar with this show or this trainer. I trust your opinion because I have talked with you and know what you are all about.

 

[Manchesters]

Angelique

No name calling or offence intended. However, since the word "stupid" was introduced to open this thread, it deserved to be put into a more appropriate context.

Sometimes ya just gotta consider the source.....in this case a book toting, certified behaviorist who passed several courses and professor formulated tests to become an accredited behaviorist.

There seems to be the impression that unless one has attended school, one cannot claim to be a behaviorist. Nor can anyone who breeds, and has spent decades SHAPING canine behavior in hundreds of puppies dare to call him/herself a behaviorist.

This is ala the O.P. So, there is definitely a difference of opinions on this forum.......as the old saying goes.....those who Can DO. Those who can't TEACH, rofl.

(Just aggitating a bit here, folks!)

 

[yuckaduck]

Sometimes ya just gotta consider the source.....in this case a book toting, certified behaviorist who passed several courses and professor formulated tests to become an accredited behaviorist.

There seems to be the impression that unless one has attended school, one cannot claim to be a behaviorist. Nor can anyone who breeds, and has spent decades SHAPING canine behavior in hundreds of puppies dare to call him/herself a behaviorist.

This is ala the O.P. So, there is definitely a difference of opinions on this forum.......as the old saying goes.....those who Can DO. Those who can't TEACH, rofl.

(Just aggitating a bit here, folks!)

As sad as it is to say but I have to agree with you.

 

[Manchesters]

I Know You Know

Never implied that at all, actually never crossed my mind. I just thought you seemed to have a few things in common and you might find this thread of interest. I also was interested in your opinion because I am in no way familiar with this show or this trainer. I trust your opinion because I have talked with you and know what you are all about.

That I am NOT Angelique, rofl. Power keeps flickering off. I have a Manchester trying to shinny up my leg, and a Whippet with her nose velcroed to my other leg because of the severity of this storm. Wind stronger than with Dennis, lightning that is cracking right over my trailer. Oh hell, here is Sharkie again......tongue hanging out having a complete breakdown. For some reason she won't believe me when I tell her it is OK.

I am looking forward to hearing more from Angelique. Gotta go before lights go off again. Florida the SUNSHINE state my fat behind!!!!!!

 

[yuckaduck]

Nope I don't think you have a double identity, two seperate people, I just wanted to hear your opinion. Hope all is well with the lightening capital there and the weather settles for you. Give sharkie a hug for me, poor doggy.

 

[Mordy]

what i find most interesting is that paul owens has been around for much longer than cesar, who just relatively recently claimed the "dog whisperer" title and became yet another "celebrity trainer" popularized by TV.

http://www.dogwhispererdvd.com

i don't agree with all of cesar's philosophy, but am in full agreement with his advocating proper exercise. most dogs that are out of control do not get enough daily exercise. for a medium to large dog, 15 minutes around the block at the pace of death (i.e. owner at normal walking speed) isn't exercise.

 

[bridey_01]

The proper use of a choke chain! My God, if proper use is constant pressure, you should have SEEN THE FEAR. As far as I've been taught, it is a little pop, as a correction when the dog is doing something wrong.
I must have seen quite a "shortened" episode, because there wasn't a single drop of desensitization! I just feel awful because I know how all the idiots who live around here will react. They'll go out and get that check chain and use it to correct PHOBIAS!
It's just so saddening and awful.

 

[yuckaduck]

I guess really it is in the eye of the beholder. You can find something useful even from the worst trainers and everyone interrupts information differently. What I may think is horrible someone else might think is great. That is what makes the world such an interesting place all the different ideas and opinions. I agree that people will see a choke collar being used on tv and they will start yanking away without knowing how to use one. Problem is it is not always easy in tv shows to show the entire training session and things often get editted out so we really don't get the full picture. Makes it hard to judge completely fairly. Each opinion is muchly valued for me here as I have not seen this show but now am going to see if I can at least view one episode somewhere, to form my own opinion.

 

[bridey_01]

Maybe I just saw a particularily cringe-worthy episode. Pushing a dog into it's worst fear is just so against every single thing I have ever learned and applied that I was physically sick!
But you are right about there nearly always being something to learn from someone. He did have a few (very few!) good points, such as not babying a crying dog, etc. Unfotunatly he is still operating under the "pack" theory, rofl.
But, it is more the publics technique that I am concerned about. I geuss all the doggy chiropractors around here will be getting alot more business though, same with the behaviourists. Hey, it might even benifit me! But I don't enjoy being called in to correct people's mistakes, and I sure as hell don't like hearing that they learned them off t.v

 

[yuckaduck]

Maybe I just saw a particularily cringe-worthy episode. Pushing a dog into it's worst fear is just so against every single thing I have ever learned and applied that I was physically sick!
But you are right about there nearly always being something to learn from someone. He did have a few (very few!) good points, such as not babying a crying dog, etc. Unfotunatly he is still operating under the "pack" theory, rofl.
But, it is more the publics technique that I am concerned about. I geuss all the doggy chiropractors around here will be getting alot more business though, same with the behaviourists. Hey, it might even benifit me! But I don't enjoy being called in to correct people's mistakes, and I sure as hell don't like hearing that they learned them off t.v

Really I can't disagree with you there and again I have not seen this guy so I hear he is wonderful from one and crap from another. I guess best for me would be to watch him and then decide what I think. I just can't argue anybody without knowing the full facts, you know what I mean. I need to see the show to decide whether he is wonderful or crap.

 

[bridey_01]

Good idea, not to judge someone before you actually see what they're doing. But I can tell you, I'm not usually angry or sad when I see someone working a dog with a check chain, I don't beleive that they are too harsh or cruel. But dragging a water phobic dog into the water via the chain? argh.
As for my methods, I stick by something I think I heard from creature teacher "Don't do to your dogs what you wouldn't do to your kids!"

 

[Doberluv]

I've only seen his show a few times and what I saw of him was gentle. He did use a check chain, but wasn't rough with it. One dog went bizzerk when the mail man slipped the mail through the slot in the front door. The dog wisperer just held him with the leash, had him sit, calmed him right down. Another dog was pulling on the leash and he just used the typical pops and kept walking. I didn't ever see an episode where he was rough. He did use "flooding" techniques, where he exposes a dog to something he doesn't like or fears rather than a gradual conditioning or desensatization process. I don't agree with that method at all. Also, I don't like the term wisperer in this case because he is using more adversive methods than a wisperer, such as the horse wisperer. I think that although overall, he looked like a kind man, the term wisperer should be reserved for someone who can reach an animal and train an animal by "wispering" and not by any traditional, compulsive methods.

That episode that you saw, Bridey, sounds horrendous! I can hardly believe someone would do that and call themselves a trainer.

 

[Angelique]

Dogs are not people. They have a completely different psychology. They keep it simple and in the moment. Dogs do not throw around insults and inflamatory statements due to fear of what they do not understand.

Unfortunately, when human beings start overannalizing their simple world with all of our complex agendas, motivations, and neediness...the dogs are the ones who suffer. No amount of conditioning can ever equal the direct communication with a dog, which is possible if one pays close attention with an open mind.

Dogs are trying to communicate with us all of the time. It is much simpler to enter their world, on their terms, than to condition them into ours. Those of us who work in the rehabilitation of dogs, understand this clearly. Dogs read us very well! Most training can be aided or undone by something the human being is communicating to the dog, without even knowing it. There is a big difference between book learning and common sense communication.

I have one collegue who claims this is something you must be born with, and further gain through an intense exposure of working with dogs from a very young age. Although, this does seem to be true of the handful of people I know who truely "get it", I believe this is something that can be taught. But it must be learned from the dog's point of view, not the human's.

Yes, Cesar's show is just a small sample of what's going on between him and the dog. Rather than criticize his way of working with a dog, (if you can only see it from a "training" point of view), pay attention to what he has to say to the owners. Pay attention to his body language. Pay attention to his level of compassion, even when taking a bite or breaking up a fight. There is a lot more going on than meets the eye.


Angelique

 

[SandraC]

In England we call them check chains, the idea being they are used to check the dog not to choke them.The larger linked ones are supposedly the best as it's the noise of it tightening that supposed to correct them.
Many people don't even know the correct way to put one on or even know that here is a right or a wrong way. In England they don't come with any instructions and in the wrong hands they can be extremely uncomfortable for the dog or even lethal.
I have 3 German Shepherd Dog's and only use half checks.
Also with the check chain a compulsive puller can used to it and you have to take it higher and higher till eventually it's up around the dogs ears.

 

[loren Kristunas]

I saw the episode you are talking about. It was a very anxious, fear aggressive dog. I was really surprised and didn't agree with the flooding approach he used, having the dog jump right into the pool, however, I didn't see him treat the dog roughly in any way. Yes, he used a choker, as he usually does, but I didn't see him drag her into the water, he encouraged her and gave her no choice and she jumped in and swam around, actually seemed really willing to do it on her own after the first jump. That dog had fear in it's eyes in general, but I really didn't see any look of terror in the water and I didn't see him drag her or abuse her in any way. I wasn't sure about the flooding technique but I thought he treated her appropriately and didn't abuse her or drag her at all. Just a different view of the same episode.

 

[Angelique]

I saw the episode you are talking about. It was a very anxious, fear aggressive dog. I was really surprised and didn't agree with the flooding approach he used, having the dog jump right into the pool, however, I didn't see him treat the dog roughly in any way. Yes, he used a choker, as he usually does, but I didn't see him drag her into the water, he encouraged her and gave her no choice and she jumped in and swam around, actually seemed really willing to do it on her own after the first jump. That dog had fear in it's eyes in general, but I really didn't see any look of terror in the water and I didn't see him drag her or abuse her in any way. I wasn't sure about the flooding technique but I thought he treated her appropriately and didn't abuse her or drag her at all. Just a different view of the same episode.

Yes, this dog, Ruby, was in a constant state of fear. After listening to what the owners had to say, it was clear her state of mind was inadvertantly being reinforced by her owners on a daily basis. It was good to see her eye dialation go down, and her having fun swimming and jumping into the pool with the kids at the end of the episode. Dog rehabilitation is a very rewarding field and the outcome is usually quite dramatic.

Part of this is "containing" the dog's fear and addressing the phobia. But the most crucial part, is the ability to project our own lack of fear towards the oject the dog is reacting to and not react to the dog's behavior. If you can remain calm and assertive while doing this, it's almost as if they draw on your strength and feel safe in your presence. It's all about leadership.

As I mentioned, there is a lot more going on between Cesar and the dog, than meets the eye. I catch something new everytime, even if I've watched the episode before.

 

[Doberluv]

No amount of conditioning can ever equal the direct communication with a dog, which is possible if one pays close attention with an open mind.

What does this statement mean? How is conditioning opposed to direct communication??????? Conditioning IS direct communication.

I've conditioned my dogs and many fearful horses to things and I most certainly am directly communicating with them. It's merely taking them through smaller steps to achieve the same ends.

When I first got my Lab, as a young puppy, she was indeed afraid to go in the water. (believe it or not....puppy Labs can be just as fearful as another breed) I never forced her into it all at once. We'd go to the edge of this little lake by my house and we'd play around there for a bit and I'd toss a toy in just a few inches of water where she'd go for it. I then carried her in and just got her feet and legs wet and let her back out again. Then just a tad deeper and back out again. She showed no fear when I did this...maybe a little apprehension, but trusting me well enough. After a couple of times doing like that, she went in on her own and for the next 14 years, I couldn't keep her out of any body of water that she had access to.

With frightened horses, same thing....gradual, baby steps makes them trust you more and teaches them confidence.

Learning behavior is quite universal among mammals. You can say what you like about comparing their psychology to ours and yes, it is not the same entirely, of course. However, there are likenesses in the way all mammals learn. And new science is showing that dogs indeed have many emotions which are in line with ours, different in that they have different perspectives and experiences to shape these emotions. But scientists are discovering emotions which are broader and more intense than previously presumed. I've read many such articles in dog science magazines and other literature.

 

[yuckaduck]

Agreed, at least with the horse part that is how I trained my horses when I had them. Babysteps and communication and treats. Then the treats became a word "Good" espically with one that was terrified to jump the wall jump. Oh man embarrassing to be perfect until the wall and get no furthur. It worked very well we started small and worked our way up and everytime he jumped it he heard the word Good and new hey I did good for mamma. Can't comment past that though.