Anxiety in public, reactivness and lunging...
- Thread starter Kayla
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Before this thread gets terribly offtopic (though i think my failure to respond earlier may have set it off track) I just wanted to thank everyone for taking the time to reply. I will admit I do not know enough about detailed canine to truley make judgements on some harsher corrections.
That being said however I know my dog well enough to know he is an extremely "Soft" dog, in OB a slight negative tone in my voice was more then a suitable correction thus I would never be able to use some of the methods described simply as I know he would react negatively to them.
I do not agree that Duke does not respect me as his pack member and leader. I spend 10 hours a day with him ( mainly as he comes everywhere I do, parties, friends places etc). We do OB everyday and spend a huge portion of our time walking and sitting around outside.
Again excuse my extremely limited knowledge of detailed canine behaviour and training techniques beyond NILF but I don't believe reactivity is linked at least in Duke's case to a lack of respect/acknowledgment of my leadership but more in fact due to heritage and a combination of me simply not being able to socalize him past his own nervousness. Many may disagree with me but this is simply what I have noticed over the last 10 months of owning him.
Like I have said before I am an 18 year old student with limited income which at the moment does not have anything in the ball park of affording a behaviouralist. That being said I have been bringing my clicker out with us on every walk, practicing to death a solid emergancy down-stay and developing a rock hard watch me incase i should need it as well as clicking when he doesnt react to people while walking ( as he usually doesnt until we arent moving).
I believe it's to early in the process to see any results but if two levels of OB have taught me anything that Duke is an incrediablly quick learner and I do strongly believe that operant conditioning such as using a clicker can at least help a dog learn to not fear certain situations and I strongly hope with consistant work ( which is in truth the hardest part as I find the second we get out of an OB class I stop training on the side).
Either way if things don't improve in a few months i will have enough money to hire a behaviouralist at that point and go from there.
Ideally if I could find enough people willing to indulge some time I'd like to get them to walk about 20-30 ms away while we are sitting down in a park for a smoke like we usually do and then if he reacts get him to down stay, settle, click, treat get the person to walk 5 m closer, repeat. walk 5 ms closer, repeat. Until eventually they could get right up to Duke without him reacting and give him a treat as extra reinforcement.
The only problem is in reality it would be very hard to find someone Duke doesnt know well enough to react to, to actually give up there time to do such a thing. I could get a friend or someone to put a mask on just that he's so used to coming everywhere with me that he knows all of my friends that he would probably smell their scent when they got close and no longer react and thus not really reinforce the idea that actual strangers are NOT dangerous.
Sorry to make this so long, but regardless Duke is my companion, he's been there with me through a very dangerous relationship and physically saved me from him one night. I owe him my life and as such I don't care how many things I have to work through with him, or if I do have to save up for ahwile before I can bring him to a behaviouralist if it is nesicary as I love him and that's all it really comes down to in the end.
(p.s can we delete all of the non thread specific posts in this thread so that it stays relevant to the original topic incase new comers come to the thread as I think good arguments/points have been brought up in this thread even if I dont agree with some of the outlooks on some training techniques suggested).
That being said however I know my dog well enough to know he is an extremely "Soft" dog, in OB a slight negative tone in my voice was more then a suitable correction thus I would never be able to use some of the methods described simply as I know he would react negatively to them.
I do not agree that Duke does not respect me as his pack member and leader. I spend 10 hours a day with him ( mainly as he comes everywhere I do, parties, friends places etc). We do OB everyday and spend a huge portion of our time walking and sitting around outside.
Again excuse my extremely limited knowledge of detailed canine behaviour and training techniques beyond NILF but I don't believe reactivity is linked at least in Duke's case to a lack of respect/acknowledgment of my leadership but more in fact due to heritage and a combination of me simply not being able to socalize him past his own nervousness. Many may disagree with me but this is simply what I have noticed over the last 10 months of owning him.
Like I have said before I am an 18 year old student with limited income which at the moment does not have anything in the ball park of affording a behaviouralist. That being said I have been bringing my clicker out with us on every walk, practicing to death a solid emergancy down-stay and developing a rock hard watch me incase i should need it as well as clicking when he doesnt react to people while walking ( as he usually doesnt until we arent moving).
I believe it's to early in the process to see any results but if two levels of OB have taught me anything that Duke is an incrediablly quick learner and I do strongly believe that operant conditioning such as using a clicker can at least help a dog learn to not fear certain situations and I strongly hope with consistant work ( which is in truth the hardest part as I find the second we get out of an OB class I stop training on the side).
Either way if things don't improve in a few months i will have enough money to hire a behaviouralist at that point and go from there.
Ideally if I could find enough people willing to indulge some time I'd like to get them to walk about 20-30 ms away while we are sitting down in a park for a smoke like we usually do and then if he reacts get him to down stay, settle, click, treat get the person to walk 5 m closer, repeat. walk 5 ms closer, repeat. Until eventually they could get right up to Duke without him reacting and give him a treat as extra reinforcement.
The only problem is in reality it would be very hard to find someone Duke doesnt know well enough to react to, to actually give up there time to do such a thing. I could get a friend or someone to put a mask on just that he's so used to coming everywhere with me that he knows all of my friends that he would probably smell their scent when they got close and no longer react and thus not really reinforce the idea that actual strangers are NOT dangerous.
Sorry to make this so long, but regardless Duke is my companion, he's been there with me through a very dangerous relationship and physically saved me from him one night. I owe him my life and as such I don't care how many things I have to work through with him, or if I do have to save up for ahwile before I can bring him to a behaviouralist if it is nesicary as I love him and that's all it really comes down to in the end.
(p.s can we delete all of the non thread specific posts in this thread so that it stays relevant to the original topic incase new comers come to the thread as I think good arguments/points have been brought up in this thread even if I dont agree with some of the outlooks on some training techniques suggested).
Kayla, I 'm glad that you realize that your pup is a soft dog that would not benefit form aversive methods. I can't stress enough how well reinforcing an alternate conflicting behavior works. My boy is 190lbs, and I needed a solid fix, physically he is stronger tha me and we needed to have a mutual understanding on appropriate behaviors. Like I said before, he goes everywhere with me. The last event we attended was a fundraiser for our SPCA and there were nearly 200 dogs in attendence. Not once did he growl, show any sign of anxieties or stress instead he had a great time!! He even won a prize for being the biggest boy there! Positive reinforcement is a solid form of training...proven...period!
OMG...I am still laughing about the clean up in aisle 5!!! Tosca's mom, you are a riot!!!
And Doberluv, you are one smart woman! Rational discussions with people who understand and have taken the time to educate themselves in behavior modification are one thing- even if there are disagreements- but to feed the trolls when they obviously know nothing about canine behavior is another!!
OMG...I am still laughing about the clean up in aisle 5!!! Tosca's mom, you are a riot!!!
And Doberluv, you are one smart woman! Rational discussions with people who understand and have taken the time to educate themselves in behavior modification are one thing- even if there are disagreements- but to feed the trolls when they obviously know nothing about canine behavior is another!!
Kayla...for someone who says they don't know much about canine behavior, I think you've hit the nail on the head all throughout your post. You have so much more insight than a lot of people. Sharp corrections or frequent corrections can shut a dog down. That's why the experts have come up with better ways to train.
I think if you go through a systematic approach, get the help of the books that were mentioned, find people to practice with, utilize a desensatization process, with distance (at first) being your tool and good timing, frequent reinforcement for calm behavior, you'll make headway.
If you can't afford a behaviorist, do try and get a few books; the one Elegy mentioned, Click to Calm and very importantly, (IMO) Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. That is an excellent book and one which will enhance your understanding of how dogs perceive things, how they learn, why they do the things they do. And why stern "corrections" are not in line with their understanding, cognitive abilities, their culture and values as much as they are in line with our own human projections, which are all too sadly common with people who do not understand canine behavior.
Do let us know of any progress you make. Best wishes.
Edit: Saintgirl....sorry, missed your last post while I was typing. Thanks!
I think if you go through a systematic approach, get the help of the books that were mentioned, find people to practice with, utilize a desensatization process, with distance (at first) being your tool and good timing, frequent reinforcement for calm behavior, you'll make headway.
If you can't afford a behaviorist, do try and get a few books; the one Elegy mentioned, Click to Calm and very importantly, (IMO) Culture Clash, by Jean Donaldson. That is an excellent book and one which will enhance your understanding of how dogs perceive things, how they learn, why they do the things they do. And why stern "corrections" are not in line with their understanding, cognitive abilities, their culture and values as much as they are in line with our own human projections, which are all too sadly common with people who do not understand canine behavior.
Do let us know of any progress you make. Best wishes.
Edit: Saintgirl....sorry, missed your last post while I was typing. Thanks!
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Let me start by saying I only read the First post of this thread, so this may have already been said, but here I go. I also have a leash reactive dog, he lunges and barks at dogs whenenver one comes into sight.
Over the last 10 or so months we have been working on it and actually seeing some results. We consulted a behaviourist, read a bunch of forums like this one, and read a couple of books. So here's the condensed version of what I've learned.
Baby steps, if your dog's threshold is 20 feet, work with him at that distance from a distraction until it no longer is a distraction, then try 15 feet, if it doesn't work, go back to 20 then try 18 and so on. The point is DON'T rush it. Think of it this way, the slower the progress the more solid it will be.
Watch me, it sounds to me like you have already done a lot of work in this field. Getting your dog's attention, specially when he/she is reactive is WAY harder than anyone will tell you, just keep working on it. If treats work for you, trust me, you're lucky, at one point my dog would ignore a rib eye steak if there was another dog around. I had to work on it for a while before i could get him to eat a stupid treat when there was a distraction around.
Don't yell, don't say no, don't give him a command unless you're possitive he'll comply, don't wrestle, just manage while he's throwing a fit. The INSTANT he calms down praise/treat/show him you're pleased, sometimes they will only calm down for an instant to catch their breath, you have to be FAST.
There's two GREAT books about his, Click to calm and Scaredy Dog. The therapy plan the behaviourist outlined for us is a combination of those two books and some other sutff of her own, please feel free to email me if you want more details (there's a lot).
Whatever you do, do not try to correct the lunging/barking/annoying behaviour, it'll only backfire (boy would I know). This sort of problem is best erradicated by teaching the dog to do something conflicting with the bahaviour instead of teaching then NOT to do it.
Over the last 10 or so months we have been working on it and actually seeing some results. We consulted a behaviourist, read a bunch of forums like this one, and read a couple of books. So here's the condensed version of what I've learned.
Baby steps, if your dog's threshold is 20 feet, work with him at that distance from a distraction until it no longer is a distraction, then try 15 feet, if it doesn't work, go back to 20 then try 18 and so on. The point is DON'T rush it. Think of it this way, the slower the progress the more solid it will be.
Watch me, it sounds to me like you have already done a lot of work in this field. Getting your dog's attention, specially when he/she is reactive is WAY harder than anyone will tell you, just keep working on it. If treats work for you, trust me, you're lucky, at one point my dog would ignore a rib eye steak if there was another dog around. I had to work on it for a while before i could get him to eat a stupid treat when there was a distraction around.
Don't yell, don't say no, don't give him a command unless you're possitive he'll comply, don't wrestle, just manage while he's throwing a fit. The INSTANT he calms down praise/treat/show him you're pleased, sometimes they will only calm down for an instant to catch their breath, you have to be FAST.
There's two GREAT books about his, Click to calm and Scaredy Dog. The therapy plan the behaviourist outlined for us is a combination of those two books and some other sutff of her own, please feel free to email me if you want more details (there's a lot).
Whatever you do, do not try to correct the lunging/barking/annoying behaviour, it'll only backfire (boy would I know). This sort of problem is best erradicated by teaching the dog to do something conflicting with the bahaviour instead of teaching then NOT to do it.
I, too, want to congratulate you for realizing that you have a soft dog. In fact, probably 80% of this type of aggression is rooted in fear or anxiety, which can be made much worse if you use punitive methods or some of the other suggestions made earlier in the thread by people who have no respect for things like agility and obedience. Truthfully, I found obedience as a competitive sport just as boring as my dogs did, but they light up for agility, tricks, tracking, and other things. But, that doesn't mean that I would slam anyone with a well trained dog for participating, or for showing in the breed ring, or any other dog sport. To each his own. But, the macho attitude displayed by those unenlightened souls who think that only a protection dog is a *real* dog is appalling, and not at all in line with what modern trainers are all about. Progressive people evaluate a new method objectively before coming to any conclusions about its use. I have yet to meet one of the "schutzhund trolls" who has actually done that - they seem to just stick to the same old same old. Sure, it works, but progressive dog-friendly training works, too. Thankfully, some protection and police trainers "get it". People like Steve White, for one. He has over 32 years experience training cop dogs, but is now using clicker training. Why? Because he investigated it (good cop) and found that it works - it's solid science. And, he is not so set in his ways that he isn't always looking for a way to make things safer for his cops, and better for his dogs. Eley's advice is good advice.
:hail: :hail:
The only thing I would disagree with is that "it" (stern punishment) doesn't work. It may appear to work because it is supressing the "symptom." It is not making the dog OK with the other dogs or whatever it is he's reacting to. There are all kinds of undesireable side effects of stern aversives which behaviorists...people who know behavior, know dogs and their body language, their signals etc... know about. So, I guess what some people accept as good enough and what they call "working," ("it works.") isn't the same or enough for the vast majority of trainers and enlightened dog owners today. For me, just stopping the behavior isn't the end all, in other words. There's more to it than that.
The only thing I would disagree with is that "it" (stern punishment) doesn't work. It may appear to work because it is supressing the "symptom." It is not making the dog OK with the other dogs or whatever it is he's reacting to. There are all kinds of undesireable side effects of stern aversives which behaviorists...people who know behavior, know dogs and their body language, their signals etc... know about. So, I guess what some people accept as good enough and what they call "working," ("it works.") isn't the same or enough for the vast majority of trainers and enlightened dog owners today. For me, just stopping the behavior isn't the end all, in other words. There's more to it than that.
What is the point of that photo?? It's either a pic of two dogs playing and it looks like they are fighting or....
your into dog fighting???
As per usually Prudue, you have missed the mark again. By the way I see you conveniently DIDN'T awswer my direct question to you on the other thread about YOUR worldly experience as a dog rescuer. Care to do that now??
your into dog fighting???
As per usually Prudue, you have missed the mark again. By the way I see you conveniently DIDN'T awswer my direct question to you on the other thread about YOUR worldly experience as a dog rescuer. Care to do that now??
I'm not a certified dog trainer. But I know what flooding is. It is the intentional exposure of the animal to an stimulus that upsetting with the idea that massive constant exposure will basically burn out the fear that they have. It's hit and miss, as a method. In the hands of an uneducated person, it will be a large miss, totally ineffective and likely to cause other problems.
ETA: I could swear I read somewhere that flooding as a technique doesn't work as well as some would like it to. It is far better to train for calmness and attentiveness at a distance beyond the range of reactivity and slowly work the range down to nothing. The idea is to change the meaning of the stimulus from one of fear to one of reward, or at least, ho hum, what's next.
ETA: I could swear I read somewhere that flooding as a technique doesn't work as well as some would like it to. It is far better to train for calmness and attentiveness at a distance beyond the range of reactivity and slowly work the range down to nothing. The idea is to change the meaning of the stimulus from one of fear to one of reward, or at least, ho hum, what's next.
