Anxiety in public, reactivness and lunging...

[Kayla]

With Duke finally reaching a year old and having successfuly completed, puppy kindergarden, basic obidence and level II obidence I was looking forward to a settling maturing dog whose behavioural issues would slowly with time, work and positive reinforcement would improve.

But that's the thing they haven't. Duke is still extremely reactive, extremely anxious in public ( lowered ears, frantic look in eyes, rigid tail, growling, barking, lunging and what seems to be nervous panting). I've tried so many things and so many suggestions and nothing seems to work. My OB trainer recomended a Halti so i could physically turn his head away from what he was barking at. But that was only a band aid solution as hed fight like hell and at 85lbs it usually ment I lost. Then i tried teaching more focus with a watch it command, it works semi- well if i have a treat and hold it right in front of my face but only if the cause of the reaction is more then 20 feet away. I've also distracting him by making him get into a down or sit position (i.e making him take attention off reaction cause to work and focus on me) however this to has it's limited effectiveness. I know the penny in the can method is supposde to be a good but my only concern is it will only work for 5 seconds at which point i could get him to watch me or go to a sit or down but he becomes so focused on the reaction that this only would work for a few seconds.

The worst part is never knowing how he will react around approaching people and dogs, many times he walks by without a second thought, i even had a dog snap off its leash and run full speed at us just for duke to casually sniff it before walking along. Other times he will see a dog 10,20 feet away and decides he hates it, same with people. Today he actually sprang up at a young boy walking by and lunged and completely knocked me off balance ( as I was sitting and he got up and sprang up pulling me backwards for a split second.

Usually his reactivness dramatically increases when we are stationary and usually when we are sitting for a smoke especially at night. I can tell many times by his experesson that he doesnt feel comfortable in public when were stationary as after a growling a few times he will stop an cry before resuming and his facial expressions seems very tense.

I'm just not sure what else i can do and with little money to my name as I am a student a behaviouralist is something I wont be able to afford for a few more pay checks as Duke's due for his vaccines soon.

When we go to the vet i'll see if they can check for any imbalances that may be making him more anxious and see if there are any herbal solutions if that were the case along for checking for anything medically wrong that may be making him feel vulnrable. Besides that i'm really beyond knowing what to do.

Obviously I love him to death I just don't like seeing him so uncomfortable in public and because of our current lifestyle he does need to come to many ublic places with me including my work, outdoor outings, smaller parties when im not drinking simply so i can feed him/ give him water/ excersise him etc whenever possible.

The only time i really see him relaxed are at home and when were walking but not stopping...

 

[Zoom]

Actually, it sounds like you'll be able to work with him fairly easily. You've already identified a lot of cues he gives you...the distance he'll tolerate, the looks on his face before he goes off, etc. He gives you a chance to respond before he lets loose. If you know he will tolerate 20 feet, then back up to 25 and work on focusing at that distance (or get a rock-solid "watch me" inside first, away from the distractions).

If you have any extra money, I say go pick up a copy of "Bones Would Rain from the Sky" by Suzanne Clothier. I just got done reading it and she has a chapter where she talks about this problem, with a German Shepherd and what she did. It's just a good book all the way around...she sort of lost me at first with her childhood reminicing, but after that it was good stuff.

 

[Kayla]

Thanks for the book recomendation Zoom i'll check it out as soon as I can afford to. In the meantime i've been uping his OB work at home, doing more heeling, retrieving objects, jumps and obsticle courses to work his attention.

I've also been making an extra effort to read him better and anticipate before he starts by making him to drop to a down stay and watch me ( and holding a treat right in front of my face then clicking and treating), today actually went much better then any other attempt at this and I actully got him to not bark excessively at anyone.

It's just odd as he seems to go through regressions in which he is much much more hard to control on same days in different circumstances then others.

But after todays success i actually think its the first time in months that I've had alot of hope towards solving the behaviour, i think were still in for a ride yet but getting closer and closer every day.

The hardest part is to consistantly remember to grab my clicker and treats before leaving to walk him and equally hard to remind myself to not get fusterated as there have been a few times he has made me lose it unfortunatly (when he lunged at the boy it was just my natural reaction to pull him back and give him a smack before i even realised what i was doing) and he responds so much better to soft handling especially in reactive mode.

Ill keep everyone updated though.

 

[Doberluv]

That's a wonderful book. If he's lunging aggressively at humans, I really would enlist the help of a certified behaviorist who can really evalutate your dog, the body language etc. I know it can be expensive and maybe you can't do that. But when it comes to humans, you really have to be so careful and go about it the right way so things don't get worse. Another great book is Click to Calm, by Emma Parsons. I highly recommend it. Good luck!

 

[VWilson]

Duke does not trust you, nor does he see you as his leader, and protector.
Therefore he feels the need to evaluate, and decide for himself what actions to take.

It is very important that the owner has a grasp upon this, or all the OB training in the world will not matter. as the dog will be unstable, and frightened.

Dogs follow a leader, not a buddy, not the person who feeds them, not a person ith whom they share herbal tea, and talks nice to them. Being on the human end of the lead does not make you a leader, it may only make you an anchor to start.

They always gravitate to the leader. It is deeply ingrained in their DNA to want a leader, and if needed to fill the spot themselves, even if they do not want the job.

The leader makes the decisions, and does the protecting, and thinking.

When left to make their own decisions, they almost always become what you describe.
When in doubt, they will always strike first, if they cannot run.
Yes, he obviously has fear issue, but his biggest fear that cripples him emotionally is his being afraid you will not protect him.

Change that, and you change the dog entire behavior.

Val Wilson

 

[houndlove]

And how would you go about doing that, considering no one is actually threatening this dog for the leader to demonstrate that she would protect him? I've heard that theory a lot before (having a fearful dog myself) and I was never quite able to grasp how I'd show him that I would protect him when in actual fact there is nothing out there that I could demonstrate that protection on because nothing is actually threatening us. It's all in his head.

 

[adojrts]

V Wilson;
Are you saying that by using corrections that you build trust, therefore becoming the leader?

 

[Gempress]

EDIT: Too early in the morning for the soapbox.

 

[Saintgirl]

Kayla, Zoom gave you wonderful advice, and Doberluv recommended another great book. I use to have a problem with my Saint being reactive and snarly with other dogs when we were out in public. Not only was it embarrassing and inappropriate, it made me sad because we were able to go anywhere and do anything before he had reached maturity. But now that maturity had kicked in, and yes he was neutered, he had dog aggression. This was a huge problem for us because we go everywhere with our dogs. Luckily with a little behavior modification using positive reinforcement we can and do go everywhere again.

I used the approach in behavior modification refered to Behavior enhancement approaches. These are designed to reduce the incidence of destructive behaviors by making socially desirable responses more probable by reinforcing more appropriate competing or alternative behaviors rather than by suppressing the destructive behaviors directly. Specifically, I decided to utilize Differential Reinforcement of Incompatible Behavior otherwise known as DRI.

In DRI the issue is one of replacing the undesirable behavior with something better. In practice, an alternative behavior is chosen that is physically incompatible with the problem behavior; increasing the frequency of this incompatible behavior will necessarily produce a decrease in the undesirable behavior. An intermittent schedule of reinforcement is selected. If at the end of each time interval the individual is engaging in the incompatible behavior, the individual receives reinforcement.


You first need to determine the destructive behavior, the undesirable lunging, growling etc, and then decide on a target behavior- one that you will reinforce immediatley when it occurs. The reason that I say chose a specified target behavior is because it is often easier to choose one and immediately reinforce it than deciding on the spot if the other behaviors being shown are worthy of reinforcement even if they are not the destructive behavior? Although this can work, and even has a name, for a beginner to eliminate a behavior it is easier to use A- destructive behavior and B-target behavior. Follow me?

I personally chose a down stay combined with a focus on me. First we made sure that this was a reliable command. One that was immediatley responded to with the appropriate down and focus followed by a great reinforcer- in my case it was CHEESE!!! I swear my boy will do anything for cheese! Hutch could not physically engage in his destructive behaviors of acting like an a$$ (his destructive behavior) while focusing on me in a down stay (his target behavior). Soon we began to practise where there were more distractions, and we graduated to his trigger distractions (other dogs). As soon as he would become interested in the other dogs we went into the down/focus and held it and reinforced!

Now when we see oncoming dogs he is more focused on me to see if he should be awaiting his down/focus. We have been able to eliminate the down part of the incompatible behavior and we only use the focus. Does this mean that he likes other dogs now? No, not really but he is able to produce acceptable behaviors that allow us to participate in any outting we choose. We attend dog functions and he is neither stressed or agitated to be in the situation. He is happy because we are out experiencing new things together- and being together is what matters most to him.

I want to add that I litterally spelled out the science jargon word for word because of late there has been alot of promotion of aversive techniques. I wanted to be able to show that proven methods of behavior modification that are practised daily by professionals around the world do work. My dog was not trained out of his destructive behaviors using fear based methods, and it did not take half of his life to teach him this. It took a couple of weeks. No, not the over night approach, but one that is reliable and did not compromise our relationship in the least.

Kayla, your dogs situation is a different one. He is being reactive to both dogs and humans, which is very serious. However, the simple technique that I used can begin to help you. I strongly urge you to get professional help, because they can better point out his triggers to stress and aggitation and can help you determine the best solution. I know that you have said that money is tight, but if that extra money happens to fall into your lap... Until then, he can't lunge at strange people and risk biting them if he is not in that situation.

 

[Lilavati]

Sarama's problems are nothing as serious as Duke's, but what I do is similar to Saintgirl's recommendations. It seems to work.

When she gets worked up, I tell her to sit. I give her a treat for sitting. And then we wait until she calms down. IIf she gets back up, I tell her to sit again. If I have to, I place her, gently, into a sit (if she absolutely refuses to sit then we leave the area)

If its something she's afraid of, in particular, I start talking in a calm, cheerful voice (not a soothing voice) just a calm, conversational, even somewhat bored tone. For example: "Oh, look, its the garbage truck. Isn't it big and loud. Yeah, and I can see how that might be intimidating. Oh, look at the garbage men. Tough job." I don't do this because I believe she is understanding a word I'm saying, but because it is calm behavior and keeps her attention on me. But it also shows her that I find nothing alarming, or even all that interesting about it (I look around the area while I'm talking, not just at what has her worked up). This seems to work for me. With objects that spook her (like the bronze elephant my grandmother sent me) my fiance and I pass it back and forth, remarking calmly on how interesting and nice it is until she calms down and investigates.

Of course, passers-by probably think I'm deeply insane.

 

[VWilson]

V Wilson;
Are you saying that by using corrections that you build trust, therefore becoming the leader?

Yes they do.

Here is the basic rule of overcoming these fear behaviors, such as lunging, and aggressiveness, and I am quite aware of how it seems, or sounds

The stress of the correction, must overcome the stress of the distraction.
heavy stress gets heavier corrections

The dog will stop the behavior, and find out that everythng is OK when the dog is with the master, and therefore trust the judgement of the master.
eventually they decide everything is just plain OK

It simply works, does not really matter why, but it does.

I have a dog that was extremely aggressive to other dogs, who will lock into my side in a heal position when threatened by another dog.
At that point it becomes my job to protect him, because that is the masters job, not his. He is merely backup.

He is now a curious friendly dog that is constantly wanting to meet, and greet other dogs. A problem all in itself, but a good problem to have.

 

[Doberluv]

Kayla, Zoom gave you wonderful advice, and Doberluv recommended another great book. I use to have a problem with my Saint being reactive and snarly with other dogs when we were out in public. Not only was it embarrassing and inappropriate, it made me sad because we were able to go anywhere and do anything before he had reached maturity. But now that maturity had kicked in, and yes he was neutered, he had dog aggression. This was a huge problem for us because we go everywhere with our dogs. Luckily with a little behavior modification using positive reinforcement we can and do go everywhere again.

I used the approach in behavior modification refered to Behavior enhancement approaches. These are designed to reduce the incidence of destructive behaviors by making socially desirable responses more probable by reinforcing more appropriate competing or alternative behaviors rather than by suppressing the destructive behaviors directly. Specifically, I decided to utilize Differential Reinforcement of Incompatible Behavior otherwise known as DRI.

In DRI the issue is one of replacing the undesirable behavior with something better. In practice, an alternative behavior is chosen that is physically incompatible with the problem behavior; increasing the frequency of this incompatible behavior will necessarily produce a decrease in the undesirable behavior. An intermittent schedule of reinforcement is selected. If at the end of each time interval the individual is engaging in the incompatible behavior, the individual receives reinforcement.


You first need to determine the destructive behavior, the undesirable lunging, growling etc, and then decide on a target behavior- one that you will reinforce immediatley when it occurs. The reason that I say chose a specified target behavior is because it is often easier to choose one and immediately reinforce it than deciding on the spot if the other behaviors being shown are worthy of reinforcement even if they are not the destructive behavior? Although this can work, and even has a name, for a beginner to eliminate a behavior it is easier to use A- destructive behavior and B-target behavior. Follow me?

I personally chose a down stay combined with a focus on me. First we made sure that this was a reliable command. One that was immediatley responded to with the appropriate down and focus followed by a great reinforcer- in my case it was CHEESE!!! I swear my boy will do anything for cheese! Hutch could not physically engage in his destructive behaviors of acting like an a$$ (his destructive behavior) while focusing on me in a down stay (his target behavior). Soon we began to practise where there were more distractions, and we graduated to his trigger distractions (other dogs). As soon as he would become interested in the other dogs we went into the down/focus and held it and reinforced!

Now when we see oncoming dogs he is more focused on me to see if he should be awaiting his down/focus. We have been able to eliminate the down part of the incompatible behavior and we only use the focus. Does this mean that he likes other dogs now? No, not really but he is able to produce acceptable behaviors that allow us to participate in any outting we choose. We attend dog functions and he is neither stressed or agitated to be in the situation. He is happy because we are out experiencing new things together- and being together is what matters most to him.

I want to add that I litterally spelled out the science jargon word for word because of late there has been alot of promotion of aversive techniques. I wanted to be able to show that proven methods of behavior modification that are practised daily by professionals around the world do work. My dog was not trained out of his destructive behaviors using fear based methods, and it did not take half of his life to teach him this. It took a couple of weeks. No, not the over night approach, but one that is reliable and did not compromise our relationship in the least.

Kayla, your dogs situation is a different one. He is being reactive to both dogs and humans, which is very serious. However, the simple technique that I used can begin to help you. I strongly urge you to get professional help, because they can better point out his triggers to stress and aggitation and can help you determine the best solution. I know that you have said that money is tight, but if that extra money happens to fall into your lap... Until then, he can't lunge at strange people and risk biting them if he is not in that situation.

Two thumbs up! Excellent post Saintgirl.

 

[ToscasMom]

....or you can just hit him with a bamboo pole and drown him. Well don't really drown him, just make him *think* he's drowning. That should get him to respect you.

 

[VWilson]

....or you can just hit him with a bamboo pole and drown him. Well don't really drown him, just make him *think* he's drowning. That should get him to respect you.

Sideways insults, nice way to dicuss something.
When the mealy mouthed, narrow minded insulting starts, the discussion is over for me.

Stick to you dogmatic, and limited thinking, and only manage your curable problems instead of fixing them.
Limit the experiences of yourself, and your dog.

You keep that thinking, and the open minded people can go about using the proper methiods for the individual dog whether it be treat, praise, mild, medium, or heavy corrections.

I am done.
No more comments from me.


V W

 

[ToscasMom]

the discussion is over for me.

I am done.
No more comments from me

Excellent.

 

[Saintgirl]

You know what V Wilson, I am sick and tired of hearing you repeatedly say , and I quote

Stick to you dogmatic, and limited thinking, and only manage your curable problems instead of fixing them.
Limit the experiences of yourself, and your dog.

When this is exactley what you are doing and how you are behaving. It is a shame that you have limited your canine behavior expertise to such a small tried but untrue method. Again, I am not denying that it works, but at what cost? And in the end is it truely reliable?

I am done.
No more comments from me.

Good. It is seriously starting to worry me that new dog owners and those interested in canine behavior will consider your methods when better and healthier methods exist. You may not believe this, but the educated behavior modifiers certainly do.

 

[adojrts]

Yes they do.


At that point it becomes my job to protect him, because that is the masters job, not his. He is merely backup.

QUOTE]


And what happends if/when you are unable to protect him??

 

[showdawgz]

Yes they do.


At that point it becomes my job to protect him, because that is the masters job, not his. He is merely backup.

QUOTE]


And what happends if/when you are unable to protect him??

You do your d@mn best to protect them.

 

[showdawgz]

....or you can just hit him with a bamboo pole and drown him. Well don't really drown him, just make him *think* he's drowning. That should get him to respect you.

Isnt that getting quite old.

 

[ron]

Something that I think helps is to catch him being good. When in public and he is not going schizo, reward those calm moments.