Alpha Roll - Dangerous?

[WestiePupp]

i just read on puppy training online and some book that said alpha rolling was ok to do then i did further research on alpha roll where it said that it could be dangerous. i have only done this at max 3-4 times to my westie because he has constantly been hyper and play-biting. when doing this i just picked him up and lay him down on the floor with my hand on his body so he cant get up. he just gets calm and after the first time he got a bit rowdy and started acting hysterical. i will not do this anymore but has doing it that little amount of time really going to be as bad as people say? i read this on wikipedia but it says its bad for adult dogs and does not specify if it is bad for puppies. this is a puppy that is about 2 months old that i rescued from a shelter. i think it shouldnt be too bad since puppies are too young to know and remember unless it is reinforced many times. what do u guys think?

 

[Herschel]

Not only is it just "bad" for puppies, it's potentially damaging (physically and mentally).

8 weeks of life and someone is already "showing him who's boss"? Stop. Now you know better, don't do it again. Let your puppy be a puppy.

*Way to go, Cesar...*

If you want to teach bite inhibition, try this:
http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bite.txt

 

[WestiePupp]

=( thanks herschel. yeah i saw dog whisperer and he does that. do u think he will be ok though herschel? he still seems to be acting fine and running around healthily. im worried now =( i just wanted him to stop play biting. someone referred that mother dogs do that and then they stop doing what they are doing and said u can imitate that. but i will stop doing that right away.

 

[Herschel]

Yes, he will be OK. Just don't do it again!

You aren't a dog, don't pretend to be one. Cesar Milan is full of...

 

[WestiePupp]

im paranoid because i did it 3-4 times =( thank you though herschel. after noticing he got aggressive the 2nd time of doing it i stopped doing it. i read the link u gave me. that is the exact thing i tried doing. it is right that u cannot teach bite inhibition without lettin him bite. but i notice he continously play bites even when i say no and walk away. he just follows and starts lickin. later after ignoring him he will play bite again and i will say OUCH and get up to walk away and repeat but the same occurence happens. i guess hes just bein a puppy by nature

 

[Maxy24]

I think as long as you stop everything will be fine I think alpha rolling is stupid. People think they are supposed to roll "dominant" dogs. Well most people think of dominant as somewhat aggressive. Now imagine rolling a somewhat aggressive dog into a position where he feels threatened and uncomfortable. Chances are you'll get bit (hence why it is dangerous, I'd bite someone if they did it to me).

Alpha rolling teaches nothing it is just an attempt at suppressing the dog's behavior.

Now your dog is a puppy, puppies are active and therefore hyper, please don't punish him for being active. Make sure he is getting enough exercise and has plenty of toys to play with.

For the biting you need to teach him that when he bites the fun stops. This can be taught without scaring or confusing the dog (which alpha rolling may do, it also increases the dogs biting and will make him more active as he tries to get up). As soon as he bites you stop playing with him and completely ignore him (don't look at, touch or talk to). As soon as he stops biting or trying to bite start playing again (use a toy not your hand other wise he will think he is supposed to bite hands) and repeat. You will have to be starting and stopping over and over but eventually he will catch on.

If you need training help with these problems feel free to make a thread about it in the training or puppy section.

I don't like alpha rolling, think it's useless and scary for the dog. Being on his back is very vulnerable especially since you are most likely angry when you do this. Forcing fear on a dog gets you bit. plus it does not teach anything, it is not training.

I don't think you have caused any damage to your dog by doing this but if I were you I would stop, we can help you with methods to stop these "bad" behaviors that have no negative side effects.

 

[WestiePupp]

thank you maxy and herschel. you guys have relieved me of my paranoia. i didnt want to cause and physical or mental damage to him. am i supposed to just get up and ignore him or do i say something loud and yelp? when he bites and i pull away sometimes he will bite at my body and drag my shirt.

 

[Maxy24]

I hate Ceasar too.

im paranoid because i did it 3-4 times =( thank you though herschel. after noticing he got aggressive the 2nd time of doing it i stopped doing it. i read the link u gave me. that is the exact thing i tried doing. it is right that u cannot teach bite inhibition without lettin him bite. but i notice he continously play bites even when i say no and walk away. he just follows and starts lickin. later after ignoring him he will play bite again and i will say OUCH and get up to walk away and repeat but the same occurence happens. i guess hes just bein a puppy by nature

You let him bite but the second it hurts the fun stops. He is just a baby and it will take time. What you need to make sure you do is stay consistent. Continue getting up and ignoring EVERY time it hurts, never fail. It's not going to work in one or two tries maybe not in 20 times. Maybe he will start doing great one day and be just as bad as when you started the next day, these things happen because it is such a natural behavior.

Another VERY important thing to remember is that you can't stop him from biting and chewing, you just need to stop him from biting and chewing YOU (and other people). That means you need toys!! Lots of toys, chew toys (teething) and squeaky toys and bones and balls and toys bigger than him that he can attack and smaller ones he can carry and shake, basically toys that will satisfy all his chewing and killing needs When you are training him not to bite (playing with him) make sure you have many toys near you o when you ignore him for biting he can go and start chewing them (this shows he has made the connection that chewing toys are better than chewing you).

 

[Maxy24]

am i supposed to just get up and ignore him or do i say something loud and yelp? when he bites and i pull away sometimes he will bite at my body and drag my shirt.

I would not yell or do anything too loud. I would just say ouch! and immediately stand up and turn your back to him (if he decides to run in front of you after you turn away then just stay facing that direction or it will turn into a game). Ignore him until he stops jumping at you and trying to bite, or if he stops as soon as you stand, wait about 30 seconds (don't count too fast) then go back and continue play. You will likely get bit again almost immediately so stand back up and repeat.

Good Luck with your pup, I'm glad you are willing to learn what is best for your dog. I'm going to bed but I'll check back in first thing in the morning

 

[WestiePupp]

thank you maxy. you and herschel have been very helpful. i dont think he has learned bite inhibition yet. sometimes he just puts his teeth onto my skin but at times when i am sitting and he bites i try to get my finger out without rippin my skin in his mouth but he'll try to jerk my finger and then itll start to bleed. he will insist on biting harder if i try to pull my finger out. thats when i get up and walk away from him where i will find him either chasing or just layin on the floor with his head down. or he'll go play with one of his toys

 

[RSX JDM Integra]

Someone's been watching the Dog Whisperer alot

But do not enforce it back onto him anymore. He will be okay, or atleast I think so.

As for the play biting, this will have to happen. It's when he learns when it is enough that is crucial. If you read my other thread, I puppy-sat a Dachschund and he play bit frequently too. Just not enough for me to bleed though. There are many approaches to this while some are not recommended or recognized by some people on this forum.

1) Let out a firm OUCH or NO. You can emulate a puppy yelp too if you'd like. Get up and let him know that the game is over. Do not look at him or touch him at all. Leave him be. Should he follow you, continue facing the opposite direction of him and go to an area out of his reach.

2) Following 1) you can crate him to let him know that you are disappointed and that you will be out of his reach and that nobody will play with him. (Just make sure there are toys in there to keep him occupied)

3) You can try holding his muzzle so he knows that you are not happy with his puppy biting (I have not tried this but several puppy training books and pages will tell you that you can utilize this for 15 seconds to see if they stop)

4) You can grab him by the scruff of his neck as well and pull him off of you. Then immediately get up while holding his scruff and walk away from him. This is what I did when the Dachshund did this to me. I held him by the scruff, pointed my finger at him and said NO with my face as serious as possible and just walked away. If he insisted on jumping at my legs I would turn around and then say NO and walk away into a room.

Try either of these and see if it works. I would like to recommend 1 and 2 first. Don't give up, he will eventually learn how to control himself as he progresses through his puppy ages. You can't expect a well behaved puppy that is less than 6 months old.

 

[WestiePupp]

i need a method of training and that one method only. i dont want to switch between methods as i believe it may confuse the pup. which one do you strongly recommend using and see a positive outcome and a guaranteed efficiency

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

With my puppies, I like to 'yelp' really loudly in a high voice. The trick is to look VERY hurt and dissappointed and make the yelp very obvious. Most puppies will immediately stop and look at you, kinda confused and curious. At this point, walk away for several minutes before coming back to play WITH a toy.

~Tucker

 

[Mcpie]

*Way to go, Cesar...*

To be fair, I have read about alpha rolling in what were, aside from that, absolutely excellent books. Not all of it comes from Cesar

Westie, in terms of training methods, "positive" training is generally seen as the best method and it really is a much better way to train your dog than past methods. As far as certain ways to train your dog-- as in specifics, IMO there is no such thing. You will have guidelines, and from there, you need to see what works for you and your dog.

There is more than 1 way to teach your dog almost anything. I.E, some people physically place their puppy into a sit, others try and lure by putting their hand over their heads, and others wait until the behavior is shown itself, etc. Three different methods to get the same action-- but the overarching theme is positive in nature. Just make sure that whatever option you choose, it is humane.

 

[hedwig]

puppys play bite, even till they are a year old or older if not trained.

mine still does it but only ocassionally then i stop playing immediatly n ignore him for a while.

 

[Fran27]

I'll tell you something. For my golden, my husband used to do the alpha roll thing (although I told him not to, but what can you do...), while I would just stand up and turn away.

Well, he still does it to him. He hasn't done it to me since he was 8 months old.

And my husband still hasn't understood that ignoring is the way to go.

 

[DanL]

Ignore=yes
Punish in crate aka "timeouts"= ridiculous
Alpha roll= LOL! Gunnar would have you for lunch. While he will readily give up his belly to you, it's on his terms. If you tried to force him over, good luck. You'd first have to get him off his feet, not an easy task.

 

[Dekka]

Time outs work great on my dogs. I guess it depends on how badly they want to be with the humans.

 

[SharkyX]

Different punishments for different crimes.
Tyr won't always listen when I call him and have to go get him... he doesn't do that anymore.
But when he's out in the yard and he's not listening... ignoring isn't the best option because then he's won that battle and figures out that if he doesn't listen long enough I will ignore him and he can keep doing what he wants.

It's just figuring out what type of corrective actions will work for what situations.

 

[DanL]

The problem I see with timeouts is by the time you get the dog in the crate, he's already forgotten what he did wrong.