Almost at the end of my rope........

[iheartsammy]

there seems to be alot alot of stuff going on but what I think is that a dog may choose to obey or not obey. There is no such thing as a dog that will do everything a owner tells it to, everyone makes mistakes, even dogs. and I do believe it's wrong to compare dogs to humans, but dogs can be stubbern. 'sometimes' if they don't feel like doing something they wont, there not some man-made creation that does everything we tell them to do...anyways thats my 2 cents...whether you agree or not, I'm not trying to side with anyone or have people yelling at me and trying to shove it in my face...like I said thats just my opinion

 

[laneyandme]

it seems to me that 8 hours in a crate for a young puppy is too much. way too much. i've heard you should only leave them in as many hours as they are old +1/2... so you could leave your puppy in for 3 1/2 hours... when i have to be gone for a longer period of time, i leave my puppy in a crated off bathroom with some toys.
it sounds like you are very frustrated. it also sounds like you want this puppy to act like you want it to act... but it's an animal.. not a robot. it sounds like a good choice to get sandler a new home.. not for your sake, but for his.

 

[Doberluv]

and I do believe it's wrong to compare dogs to humans, but dogs can be stubbern. 'sometimes' if they don't feel like doing something they wont

When they don't feel like doing something, they are not thinking...."I know what she wants, I know what is the right thing to do but I don't want to do it." That would be stubborn. This is projecting human-like thought processing to dogs. This is saying that dogs are moral creatures. They are not. They are amoral. That is a human trait, not an animals. Morals...or knowing the difference between right and wrong in our world is beyond a dog's experience. Right and wrong to us is based on our value system and our value system is created by our experiences and how we process those experiences. Dogs do not share that.

Dogs do not do things to please us. They do things which will serve themselves. If pleasing us happens to please them, then they will. But, it is a fallacy to think that dogs are thinking about our emotional state of mind and what they can do to please us. They are animals and do what they need to do for themselves and their own survival.

They do choose to give a correct response.....to "obey" or not. But the reasoning going on in their head is not the equivelent of human reasoning. They are not in a moral dilema...or making a choice based on our value system and morals. They are making a choice based on their hard wiring...(which will serve me better? Which will provide me with what I need to survive or have a better outcome?) They also need to have gotten to the point where they will have some reason to repeat or obey a behavior. (ie: training) The ONLY thing which causes a higher probability for a dog to repeat a behavior is reinforcement. If there is not a strong history of reinforcement, the odds of repeating a behavior are much lowered.

They are selfish, but innocently so. It's how they're made, how they survive. They're not being "bad" when they're not obeying as a human would be if they knew right from wrong and chose not to obey. This is why I hate the term "stubborn" for a dog. It implies that the dog is choosing to be naughty and then aversive treatment is heaped on dogs because people are attributing this human trait to dogs. They do not have it.

I'm not trying to side with anyone or have people yelling at me and trying to shove it in my face...like I said thats just my opinion

I'm not yelling at you or shoving something in your face btw. I'm trying to share some science....share what a great deal of research has shown behavioral scientists and biologists. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but learning from what others have experiemented on, observed, done controlled studies...people with PHDs in behavior have learned can help enlighten one.

It's time to get out of the dark ages where animal behavior is concerned and start getting enlilghtening ourselves instead of being "stubborn." LOL.

 

[chloesowner]

Might I suggest that you use treats to train him ("Sit, good boy, heres a cookie) We used treats to crate train my dog (who is a beagle) and now we either just have to go to the cabinet and open the door or tell her to "kennel up" and she listens.

 

[tinksmama]

Caza doesnt care most of the time. But he wouldnt DARE react to them. I still scrrff him when he does something really bad. One time this girl tried to correct him and almost got her face bit off. NO ONE handles him but me. He dont take sh*t from nobody except me.

Were you joking when you said this???
This sounds absolutely like a nightmare waiting to happen to an innocent person. I'm sorry, but I've known too many people like this,with this attitude, taking a large dog,and creating a creature that must be controlled by them at all times, or there is danger for others. The kids walking past on a sidewalk. people in a park. Exactly what are you defending?
if your dog don't take no*** from nobody but you,then I hate to think about the fear/aggression cycle you've set up. maybe not.Maybe you're not like my neighbor who shouts commands at his scary GSD's in german,and who present a major risk to anyone if they manage to get out of their fence. BTW, these are the same people whom I've seen SLAPPING their tiny dog when he was barking at us as we walked by. Not just once, but repeatedly.Again and again,a full size man hand slapping a 7 pound dogin the face.
Maybe you haven't created a monster that can only be touched by you. Any dog that would almost take a kids face off for touching it is a monster. You call yourself GSD lover. Well, I don't think that's love.

 

[Alphafemale]

Hello: First of all, you actually don't need to "say" much of anything to your pup. Your energy, attitude is everthing. When you walk him.... put the leash on and don't hesitate, just start walking. Have the leash in your right hand, arms down, shoulders back, let the leash go across the front of you and hold it again with your left hand attached to the dog. Be assertive...just walk. You might even drag him a bit...he'll protest, but just keep going. If he's protesting a lot, make sure you're not using a choker chain, but use a cloth one, too many esophogus injuries with a choker.
Hounds need exercise...exercise...exercise. They were bred for running in the woods and hunting. If he's in a crate 8 hours a day, then he's not getting enough exercise.
Your life and schedule should determine the kind of dog you get...not just get one because they're "cute".
Might be a good idea to find him a home with some land where he can run, and be happier.
and "NO", 12 weeks is NOT too young to be house broken.
Please check my website and see if there are some articles there that might be of help to you. If not...contact me and I'll be glad to give you a bit more advice.
Be assertive...
Alphafemale

 

[Alphafemale]

oooops

Sorry...forgot to add my website addy
www.peopletrainingfordogs.net

 

[dr2little]

Were you joking when you said this???
This sounds absolutely like a nightmare waiting to happen to an innocent person. I'm sorry, but I've known too many people like this,with this attitude, taking a large dog,and creating a creature that must be controlled by them at all times, or there is danger for others. The kids walking past on a sidewalk. people in a park. Exactly what are you defending?
if your dog don't take no*** from nobody but you,then I hate to think about the fear/aggression cycle you've set up. maybe not.Maybe you're not like my neighbor who shouts commands at his scary GSD's in german,and who present a major risk to anyone if they manage to get out of their fence. BTW, these are the same people whom I've seen SLAPPING their tiny dog when he was barking at us as we walked by. Not just once, but repeatedly.Again and again,a full size man hand slapping a 7 pound dogin the face.
Maybe you haven't created a monster that can only be touched by you. Any dog that would almost take a kids face off for touching it is a monster. You call yourself GSD lover. Well, I don't think that's love.

Not sure what this dog is supposed to be "trained" to do but with what has been described in this and another post, he's seems ruined for any real job. The risk to society (both human and animal) with a dog with these issues under incompetent and unqualified control is just plain horrifying.

 

[Melissa_W]

Maybe you haven't created a monster that can only be touched by you. Any dog that would almost take a kids face off for touching it is a monster. You call yourself GSD lover. Well, I don't think that's love.

I agree.

 

[dr2little]

He knows the consequences, and I rather not say. I dont play around when it comes to agression especially with me.

What are you doing to try to deal with his aggression issues? You talk a lot about consequences (with regards to aggression towards you), but I haven't seen a single post where you show concern for this mounting problem. What I have read looks more like pride over this dogs totally unexceptable level of aggression.

 

[Roxy's CD]

I must disagree with that statement GSD.

Having a dog that would rip someone's face off over a correction is not a good thing. Sure, you have a special feeling when you know that your dog listens to you better than anyone else, but a dog that's training for SchH should know what to determine as a threat and what isn't it.

Was it a pop on the leash?

To be honest we all thought it was a bit cute, (before we started going to school, when Roxy was a pup) when Roxy showed her teeth. She never bit anyone or ever looked like she was going to bite. Most of the time we thought she was playing.

And now I'm paying for it. I'm paying for not socializing her with other people like I should've when she was younger. Paying for it, with my time, my nerves and lots of money.

I don't expect or really even want Roxy to just listen to anyone. But I also don't want her to be an "unpredictable animal", who poses a danger to the public and ultimately herself.

Roxy definitely shows her dislike if my trainer corrects her while demonstrating something. Whether it be a "smile" or low growl, or sometimes even just a look. But unless my trainer went to grab her or hit her that is all Roxy would do. She knows that there would be serious consequences for biting someone. Usually there are serious consequences for even "smiling", usually a very firm, loud, angry correction, and she slumps submissively because she knows that is not allowed.

 

[dr2little]

I must disagree with that statement GSD.

Having a dog that would rip someone's face off over a correction is not a good thing. Sure, you have a special feeling when you know that your dog listens to you better than anyone else, but a dog that's training for SchH should know what to determine as a threat and what isn't it.

Was it a pop on the leash?

To be honest we all thought it was a bit cute, (before we started going to school, when Roxy was a pup) when Roxy showed her teeth. She never bit anyone or ever looked like she was going to bite. Most of the time we thought she was playing.

And now I'm paying for it. I'm paying for not socializing her with other people like I should've when she was younger. Paying for it, with my time, my nerves and lots of money.

I don't expect or really even want Roxy to just listen to anyone. But I also don't want her to be an "unpredictable animal", who poses a danger to the public and ultimately herself.

Roxy definitely shows her dislike if my trainer corrects her while demonstrating something. Whether it be a "smile" or low growl, or sometimes even just a look. But unless my trainer went to grab her or hit her that is all Roxy would do. She knows that there would be serious consequences for biting someone. Usually there are serious consequences for even "smiling", usually a very firm, loud, angry correction, and she slumps submissively because she knows that is not allowed.

So true CD - This level of aggression (described by GSD) would be grounds for dismissal from any reputable Schutzhund training association. Even Solid Tempermant is priority number one when PROPERLY training a dog for protection.

 

[Doberluv]

With my Doberman Pinscher, I've always periodically asked people who wanted to give him a dog biscuit to please ask him to sit or shake first, especially children. I want him to understand that all regular, friendly humans are to be respected and that they're generally likeable. He's got a dream temperament.

I've had GSDs before. And they were friendly to people, trustworthy and lovely with children. I never had to be careful when someone came to my house, including delivery people...no worries at all. They, like my Doberman understood the difference between a good guy and a bad guy. They came unglued in the middle of the night if there was a strange sound out on the porch. One time someone tried to jimmy the door. (this happened when I had my Lab also....2 times) and those dogs...all of them became gnashing teeth...vicious in the entry way inside the house. The rest of the time, marshmellows to everyone we met.

 

[RD]

Just on the subject of the statement that dogs do not want to please people.. I honestly cannot agree 100% there. Some dogs just don't give a ****, but there are individuals who quite plainly strive for approval. My Border Collie will work just as hard for a "that'll do" and a pat on the head as he will for a piece of steak.

When given the choice between doing a very rewarding behavior on his own (chasing a squirrel, for example) and doing what I ask, he will do what I ask. He almost always does what I ask, and he is soooo proud when he doesa good job. "That'll do" gets his tail wagging like crazy. Doesn't matter if I have a treat for him, he will listen and obey because he wants to. Border Collies were bred to work easily with their handler and I do believe that they have a desire to "please" or recieve praise or approval.

JMO, of course.

 

[Doberluv]

but there are individuals who quite plainly strive for approval.

Yes, and what does that approval represent in the whole scheme of things? That if the owner approves, the dog is secure that he will be taken care of and have his needs met and resources provided, that he will be safe and secure in the "pack." That's what I've gathered anyhow. LOL. Some dogs do very well on praise, play etc. But for most dogs, that in combination with a very high value treat reeeeeeeeellly makes 'em work hard.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

First of all I got Caza when he was around 7 months old. The owner gave him away to a trainer who is a really good friend of mine, because he challenged the father of the family. I took him in for a week while she had to have surgery. We bonded and she was so busy with all her others dogs she gave him to me.

Were you joking when you said this???

Nope

This sounds absolutely like a nightmare waiting to happen to an innocent person. I'm sorry, but I've known too many people like this,with this attitude, taking a large dog,and creating a creature that must be controlled by them at all times, or there is danger for others. The kids walking past on a sidewalk. people in a park. Exactly what are you defending?
if your dog don't take no*** from nobody but you,then I hate to think about the fear/aggression cycle you've set up. maybe not.Maybe you're not like my neighbor who shouts commands at his scary GSD's in german,and who present a major risk to anyone if they manage to get out of their fence. BTW, these are the same people whom I've seen SLAPPING their tiny dog when he was barking at us as we walked by. Not just once, but repeatedly.Again and again,a full size man hand slapping a 7 pound dogin the face.

On the contrary. He is OVERLY confident and will rise if someone "challenges" him. It was not a child, a grown women tried to scruff him, which is something you wouldnt do to another dog, especially one like Caza or any other working dogs. He did not bite her. He stood on his hind legs and looked her right in the eye growling. I corrected him for that behavior but it was the girl's fault, plain and simple. You dont correct other dogs ESPECIALLY when the dog is in drive. Caza has bitten me in drive when I go to grab the prey item. Its not so much that he bit me, but when dogs go into high drive they dont want NOTHING taking away that prey item.

Maybe you haven't created a monster that can only be touched by you. Any dog that would almost take a kids face off for touching it is a monster. You call yourself GSD lover. Well, I don't think that's love.

You can touch him he would just sit there and growl. He will growl all day and not bite. But once someone tries to "dominant" him, he will not take it. IF someone decides to correct him, other than myself then you better be ready to string him up and cut off his airflow because other than that he will get in your face.

I must disagree with that statement GSD.

What is there to disagree with.

Having a dog that would rip someone's face off over a correction is not a good thing. Sure, you have a special feeling when you know that your dog listens to you better than anyone else, but a dog that's training for SchH should know what to determine as a threat and what isn't it.

Its not a matter of what is a threat and what isnt. People have to realize that he is not a pet. Unlike most dogs out here today who are fearful you have some who WILL rise when challenged. Caza will NOT sit back and let a "nobody" to him correct him. I would never do something so foolish as to correct another working dog.

Was it a pop on the leash?

Not she grabbed his neck and shook him.

To be honest we all thought it was a bit cute, (before we started going to school, when Roxy was a pup) when Roxy showed her teeth. She never bit anyone or ever looked like she was going to bite. Most of the time we thought she was playing.

But the difference is my dogs are trained to bite. I CAN turn them on and off. My puppy is ENCOURAGED to bite.

I don't expect or really even want Roxy to just listen to anyone. But I also don't want her to be an "unpredictable animal", who poses a danger to the public and ultimately herself.

He's not dangerous as you may think. You can walk him, feed him, play with him (in a not too physical way, whereas you are hugging him and stuff) but once you "challenge" him its on.

oxy definitely shows her dislike if my trainer corrects her while demonstrating something. Whether it be a "smile" or low growl, or sometimes even just a look. But unless my trainer went to grab her or hit her that is all Roxy would do. She knows that there would be serious consequences for biting someone. Usually there are serious consequences for even "smiling", usually a very firm, loud, angry correction, and she slumps submissively because she knows that is not allowed.

Caza always warns. He got in the lady's face and showed her that he wouldnt back down. If she did it again he probably would have bitten, and he would have had his a*s strung up. People think I'm letting him run around biting, far from it. I strung him up before, when it comes to agression, its not "lets desensitize him" it "correct" him. He KNOWS he can do some damage and I let him know loud and clear that it is not acceptable.

So true CD - This level of aggression (described by GSD) would be grounds for dismissal from any reputable Schutzhund training association. Even Solid Tempermant is priority number one when PROPERLY training a dog for protection.

He is stable. When I tell him to bite he bites. When I say "aus' he stops. He is just very confident and will not back down from a challenge. He passed his BH with flying colors. He is not fearful in any way shape or form, taht is where you have your problem biters. its just people have to understand that you cant go around correcting other peoples dogs. He can be in a room of people, he can be let out to use the bathroom, its just when someone challenges him he lets them know that he is ready to go at it.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

Not sure what this dog is supposed to be "trained" to do but with what has been described in this and another post, he's seems ruined for any real job. The risk to society (both human and animal) with a dog with these issues under incompetent and unqualified control is just plain horrifying.

LOL, you dont even know me or my dog. He has no issues. Hes confident he rises to a challenge, END OF STORY. Oh, he gets the job done. And unlike you and many other people on this forum I correct my dog. I always have him under control, I will string his a*s up and he knows it. See when i correct my dog I CORREECT them. Not no simple "no". When he acts agressve I give a GOOD correction, and I know he feels it. The way he is is his personality NOT my training. But I guess he's ruined for life .

As I said before, you handle your dog and I handle mine.

 

[iheartsammy]

exactully how do you give him a 'good correction'?

 

[LabBreeder]

Back to the OP's concerns: You don't 'slap' a puppy. You can't expect a 12 wk old to be house broken; most dogs take up to 6 months depending on the breed. Keep him on a leash when outside and walking then he won't run back to the house or hide under cars. Train him to sit, stay, come, lay and walk on a leash (the basics). No dog that young needs to be crated for that long. He needs more exercise and more potty time. His potty problems are your fault, not his. My lab puppy is almost 4 months old - during the day he goes outside and at night he uses his potty pad and we have a baby gate up to keep him in their room (spare bedroom) and the bathroom and hallway area. The kitchen, our room and living room are off limits at night. If it was just our 2 yr old lab it would be fine, but we have a puppy now so they both get cordoned off at night.

 

[Doberluv]

Thank you Lab Breeder for getting this thread back on topic...and giving good advice to the original poster.