Almost at the end of my rope........

[Doberluv]

I understand about hounds. They're darling too. But for me, one trait which is soooooo important to me personally is to have a dog who is bred to work closely with man, not do the work all by himself. LOL. And a protection breed is particularily apt to stick close and that's one of the reasons I chose a Doberman....they tend toward being very obedient and very trainable.

You're right...it's always wise to research the breed to make sure that it's tendancies are right for you and your life style.

I have a member of my family who got a puppy at a shelter. He's adorable, but he's obviously got a lot of hound in him. He is like you describe. We use to go for hikes together and all four of my dogs would stick very close and come when called. Her dog would run off and not be seen for hours. He was also not worked with or trained very much, but that natural strong instinct to follow a scent was just way stronger than his "pack" drive....to stick together.

 

[sweetbassets]

I understand. I love all breeds. Bassets are the smallest breed I've ever owned, I've always had Great Danes which is another breed I love and hope to have another in the near future.
When inside my hounds are glued to me, they follow me everywhere. In fact Lawson won't go to bed unless I go. Out side is a different story, but they are pack dogs. That is one reason why you can put two unaltered males in with a female and the males won't fight. They were bred to not be aggressive because hunters wanted them to track but not attack. They like being with other dogs, but if the other dogs aren't Bassets or not after a sent then they will still follow the sent by themselves, but originally they hunted with them in packs.

 

[Aussie Red]

This sums it all up

You're slapping a 12 week old puppy? You're training him properly?

Please re-home this puppy. Your idea of proper training is way off the map. Stubborn? That's a human characteristic, not a dog's.

Still peeing in the house at 12 weeks??????? Of course he is. He's an infant. And you're not preventing accidents. Your fault, not his.

Jumps all over after being in a box all day long? Of course he is. How boring would that be?

Won't walk with you? You must not be making it worth his while. Any behavior you want your dog to do, you must make it fun and worthwhile. Motivate and reward your dog to reinforce behaviors you like. Slapping and getting angry makes you an untrustworthy, out of control non-leader.

When I hear someone is slapping a tiny puppy, I can't help but pray that the puppy gets a home where he can have a family who understands dogs.

In a nut shell. Hitting is just wrong would you hit a 3 month old baby if it isn't potty trained ? Just about the same.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

Doberluv, I will NOT allow my dog to do what they want when they want. By that I mean, my dog does something because I tell them to. Yes, they are opportunist BUT that does not mean that they are exempt from expected behavior because there is no motivation at that point in time. My dogs do as I say, WHEN I say it, if they CHOOSE not too because the motivation is not good for them then they WILL get corrected.

 

[Doberluv]

if they CHOOSE not too because the motivation is not good for them then they

are undertrained.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

are undertrained.

No not undertrained. If they can do it for a treat then why cant they do it for me, they KNOW the command. But I see this argument isnt going anywhere. Do what works for you.

 

[Doberluv]

If they can do it for a treat then why cant they do it for me, they KNOW the command.

Because dogs don't do things for you. They do things for themselves. Dogs don't give a rat's *** about your needs and internal state of mind. They are animals...not humans.... hunters, scavengers, opportunists and they do what WORKS for them. That's how they are hardwired and nothing is going to change that, no matter how much you wish for them to have this drummed up fallacy that they live to please you. They're social animals and so they enjoy love and interacting with their people, but they are that way because it has worked for them from the very earliest of the domestication process and it still works for them.

Until people realize this fact, they're going to be insisting that their dogs are stubborn, are blowing them off, that they know the command. They're not stubborn. They're doing what they are designed to do....survive the way dogs do....to do what works best for them. If "blowing off a command" works better for them than complying, then they're going to continue to be "stubborn." If complying and giving you the response you want works better for them, then that's what they'll do. In order for a dog to give a correct response reliably (even if they have complied before, but aren't now) it means they need a stronger history of reinforcers. It takes a lot of repitition and reinforcement, practice in many different contexts and locations for a dog to become reliable with a response. The motivator must be stronger than the environmental motivator.

If you're opposed to using treats or some other motivation which a dog finds just as good or better than treats, and you think your dog "should" be working to please you, or working because you're the boss and you said so, then you'll be in a constant power struggle and will be working against the dog's nature of being an opportunist, being innocently selfish. That's how they are.

There are ways to use treats or other rewards in an effective manner, so that they work, so that they can be phased out later. There are ways to strengthen behaviors by way of timing, shaping behavior, reward schedules etc. You'd have to put in some serious study on the subject. But please don't anyone keep saying that treats and operant conditioning doesn't work because that is false. What doesn't work are people who think they are training correctly and they're missing the mark somewhere.

All the education and science of learning cannot be summed up on one post on a dog forum. You would need to do some substantial study on your own.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

Because dogs don't do things for you. They do things for themselves.

EXACTLY!!!

 

[Doberluv]

So, stop trying to make them be like humans and start seeing them for what they are. Stubborn is the willful act of disobeying even when they *know better. * Dogs don't think like that. Knowing better indicates an awareness of morals. Dogs are amoral. They are unable to see the "wrong" in what they're doing the way we see it as wrong. So harsh corrections or punishment is out of sync with their nature. They don't understand that according to your value system... it is not moral...or it is wrong to disobey you. That is not in their make-up.

Instead of fighting their nature and trying to interject your human thought process, your value system and morals, start working with theirs. Motivate and reward. Make complying with you beneficial to them. Punishing a dog who doesn't have a strong enough history of reinforcement, has been inadequately trained is unfair, confusing and most certainly doesn't teach the dog what you want. It makes a dog unhappy and confused.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

I guess my dogs are "unhappy and confused". Yes, dogs are amoral, but that does not mean that they dont make choices. They DO, and my dogs make the choice to work for ME to escape a correction.

 

[Doberluv]

They DO, and my dogs make the choice to work for ME to escape a correction.

That's too bad. My dogs work to earn a living. I don't believe in....You do this or else. I believe in...You do this and you get to live. ROFLOL.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

That's too bad. My dogs work to earn a living. I don't believe in....You do this or else. I believe in...You do this and you get to live. ROFLOL.

I like that, lol. My dogs work for everything. If they want to eat they MUST do something for me first.

 

[elegy]

I guess my dogs are "unhappy and confused". Yes, dogs are amoral, but that does not mean that they dont make choices. They DO, and my dogs make the choice to work for ME to escape a correction.

wow. i hope you never get a hard dog who doesn't give a crap about your corrections. you'll be up the creek without a paddle.

i'd much prefer my dogs work with me, not out of fear of consequences.

 

[Doberluv]

wow. i hope you never get a hard dog who doesn't give a crap about your corrections. you'll be up the creek without a paddle.

Yup...they tune you completely out. I hope you don't get a sensative dog either. They'll shut down and stop behaving in general. Poof. There goes the drive and zest.

 

[Roxy's CD]

I made that mistake with Hades, Roxy can handle corrections, Hades can't... Stops working, lies down belly up... It's all over...

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

wow. i hope you never get a hard dog who doesn't give a crap about your corrections. you'll be up the creek without a paddle.

i'd much prefer my dogs work with me, not out of fear of consequences.

Caza doesnt care most of the time. But he wouldnt DARE react to them. I still scrrff him when he does something really bad. One time this girl tried to correct him and almost got her face bit off. NO ONE handles him but me. He dont take sh*t from nobody except me.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

Yup...they tune you completely out. I hope you don't get a sensative dog either. They'll shut down and stop behaving in general. Poof. There goes the drive and zest.

My Doberman is VERY "soft". I have to change my mentality with all my dogs while training.

Caza mode- Hardass, be firm and hard
Neeko- Softer tone, LOTS of praise (if not he shuts down), no correction other than a verbal one
Joe- Lots of encourements, move slow, constantly bring him into my arms and tell him its ok (he is a submissive peeer and I want to let him know nothing bad will happen when someone touches him.)
Hondo- He's a puppy, be a cheerleader, lol, short short sessions.

 

[dr2little]

Caza doesnt care most of the time. But he wouldnt DARE react to them. I still scrrff him when he does something really bad. One time this girl tried to correct him and almost got her face bit off. NO ONE handles him but me. He dont take sh*t from nobody except me.

Pretty much say's it - there it is in a neat littly frightening package.

People wonder why the majority of my bite cases involve dogs who have been "trained" using physical correction.

When you say "he wouldn't DARE react to them", what exactly would the consequences be then?

I'm honestly trying to see and understand where you're coming from and in some posts (another thread) I can truly say that I was at least starting to...then you come up with something like this and I'm back to scratching my head.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

Pretty much say's it - there it is in a neat littly frightening package.

People wonder why the majority of my bite cases involve dogs who have been through physical correction.

LOL, I said I didnt want to argue with you anymore but you make it nearly imposible for someone to respect you. My dog is a working dog. Doesnt like to be touched isnt a dog you run up to and pet. I CONTROL my dogs and the girl had NO business *trying* to correct my dog. I would NEVER do something that stupid with a dog with so much intensity. I dont work anyone's dogs because I dont know how they will react and I am no one to them. When I'm at the Sch club no one pets the dogs, might give them a light pat, but most of them are not cuddly dogs. Caza is not agressive, he ignores people. But when provoked he will bite (but always warns first, and the girl decided to ignore the warning and correct him AGAIN for growling). It was completely the girl's fault. Of course I correct him for atempting the bite, but I blame the girl completely. I do NOT tolerate agressive behavior but I CANNOT change his personality. I will never FORCE him to sit in a crowded room with people hugging all over it. If he ever actually bit a person for no good reason I would.... I rather not say what I would do because most people would not agree with it.


You handle your dog and I'll handle mine, lets just leave it at that.

 

[GSDlover_4ever]

When you say "he wouldn't DARE react to them", what exactly would the consequences be then?

I'm honestly trying to see and understand where you're coming from and in some posts (another thread) I can truly say that I was at least starting to...then you come up with something like this and I'm back to scratching my head.

He knows the consequences, and I rather not say. I dont play around when it comes to agression especially with me.