Rosettes to Ruin

So, can I keep my stunted Collie? I promise from now on I will tell people she's "kind of a Collie". Sort of.

Gempress....bravo! I was wondering when the "its irresponsible to create new breeds" thread would collide with the "its irresponsible to change existing breeds" thread, and you made it happen.

The fact is that so far as I can tell, the entire purpose of scientific breeding is to change the breed. Conflict comes in determining the purpose and direction of that change.

On other threads serious dog fanciers have said the only legitimate reasons to "evolve" dog breeds are for show (to better match the ultimate standard), or to make them better suited for their original "work" (herding, pointing etc.) As you can tell from this thread some breeders support only one or the other of the goals.

Problem is, neither of these goals necessarily support the characteristics that make dogs healthy and happy (we could learn something from the horse world's recent Barbaro tragedy) nor makes them more compatible with modern human society (and thus having fewer of them euthanized because they did not "fit in" with suburban lifestyles).

I am not advocating that Australian Shepherds should all be bred down to sleepy couch potatoes, just that those who love dogs and dog welfare as much as they value a particular breed should recognize that there is more than one legitimate reason for owning a dog and that the vast majority of owners neither show them nor hunt. It creating the healthy balanced family pet is also a legitimate goal. (And as much as I like Pugs, that should not be my only choice).

Here's my 2 cents. If people want to create a new breed, then do it but do it right. Do it for a purpose & strive for a standard & then focus on more F2, F3 + generation dogs instead of just keeping on producing your typical byb throw any 2 breeds together for a buck & call it an F1 dog.

Also, if you are going to change a breed, then do NOT continue to call the offspring by the original breeds name. That's a huge problem with the APBT. People are referring to their 80+ lb mutts as APBTs when in fact they are nothing of the sort. Finally the name "American Bully" has been put out there & a kennel club formed. Yet most don't want to call their mutt an American Bully because they would rather ride the name of the APBT for all it's historical meaning & it's reputation. Same goes with other breeds. If you take a working breed/dog, breed it down into some miniaturized version that has absolutely no drive & couldn't work if it had to, then IMO that is no longer the same has the original breed. Give it a whole new name....don't continue to ride off the original breed name all for the sake of status.

I want to add that when it comes to making a new breed, I think a lot of thought should go into it. Nowadays people are crossing any 2 ol dogs, making up a cutsie name, calling them "rare" & peddling them like snowcones in hell. That, IMO, is nothing more than back yard breeding & puppy peddling at it's finest & those peopel have no intentions on actually creating a dog to fill a certain void.

To be honest I'm torn on what people who want a low key pet with the *look* of a working dog should do. My first thought on it is "find another breed". But nobody can control what breed someone wants/gets. My next thought is to find a pet-quality pup from a working litter, but with the show-line dogs overpowering the working line dogs, it's hard to find a genuine working breeder and not just a BYB who uses "I'm breeding working dogs" as an excuse to breed their mutts.

I guess show lines have their place. However, they are so very different from their working counterparts. For one, the way they are bred is by heavy linebreeding to achieve certain looks. This has been done thoughout the history of the show Border Collie and has resulted in some genetic diseases such as neuronal ceroid lipofuscinosis (CL) being present in the breed. This is a gene that is a mutation (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) and is not present in working lines. My point is, due to the painfully narrow gene pool, I feel that the show dogs develop quite a few more health problems. A lot of working dogs trace back to a certain few dogs, Wiston Cap is in TONS of pedigrees, but for the most part the breed wasn't founded on just a handful of dogs.

I'm not saying that all working litters are solely outcrosses, but because of the diversity in the gene pool, outcrosses are more readily available and, while appearance might vary in the litter, most of these breedings still produce tremendous workers. (How's that for a sentence? XD)

Ack, I've gone off on a tangent again. Blarg. Sorry!

Anyway, ToscasMom, I do see where show lines have their niche, but in breeds like the Border Collie (not sure of the Collie's status in the working/show "wars") I'd like to see them more heavily separated from the dogs that still perform their original purpose.

RD hit on one of my pet peeves. I can't stand when people act like any non-show line dog is 'working bred'. Just because a dog isn't show type does not make it working type. I see it a lot with labs. Anything not show bench and heavy is 'field bred'. No, the majority are BYB. We had a true field bred lab and he looked nothing like show bench labs, but also didn't look or act like a BYB lab. A lot of people do ride the coattail of working dogs and breeders to explain breeding their non-standard dogs by saying that they are 'working dogs'. Sorry about that, but that annoys me. I hear over and over from people breeding these dogs that neither conform to the standard OR work ragging on shows and the AKC and it drives me nuts.

Anyways, I'm torn on this. I absolutely adore shelties, but neither of mine would be able to work sheep. Nikki, the one from the BYB, I can tell you has more instinct than the show line sheltie we have. She at least shows a ton of interest in sheep/cows every time she's around them. Trey hides. xD Trey is very athletic and beautiful but he wouldn't have made a good herder. Of course, originally, shelties were much more like very small border collie looking dogs called Toonies and crossed in England to collies for show purposes. It still causes issues now such as many dogs being oversized. Anyways, I can definitely see why people want herding dogs who will never own sheep to herd. Herding dogs are very smart and quite unique. I'm not nearly as fond of the other type temperaments of the dogs you all have deemed suitable for pet life. I have no need for a dog that can herd. I won't have sheep ever, however, your average American sheltie makes a great companion animal. Is it wrong that people have adapted them to modern life? No. People get shelties because they like them. I love their looks. Sorry, I wouldn't ever get a shorthaired dog again. I like small to medium dogs with long hair, usually long snouts, and that are athletic and intelligent. The sheltie fits the bill. It's not just looks either. Surprisingly, we've never chosen a dog based on looks. Shelties are also kind personalities, smart, active but not overly active or hyper. People obviously like these combinations as shelties are one of the most popular breeds worldwide. It doesn't make them any less shelties to me. There's just different types for different preferences and lifestyles.

That said, one of the main reasons I want to be involved in papillons instead of shelties is that there's much less contorversy and no working/showing split. The arguements just annoy me endlessly because neither side will ever see the legitmacy of the other. Life's much simpler without people bickering over things that won't change.

I do think it's highly unfair to say that all people who don't want a working dog should go out and get a lap dog. Many people don't want toys or lap dogs, I'm sorry.

this is my dog showing:

this is my dog hunting:

In the ideal world of some (myself included), the answer is yes. If you want a pet, get a dog bred for that. If you want a sled dog, get a Siberian. If you don't want a sled dog, don't get a Siberian just because you think they're "cute" or something similar.

opcorn:

OC... I dont' know how they'd react, but I've never been in that situation. Also, there is no competent trainer within 12 hours to test this... I'm not going to let some yahoo who thinks he/she is an expert whale on my dogs to see how "tough" they are.

And they didn't "growl a little in the beginning" - they weren't just standing there, saying "grr grr grr... ladedadeda..." They meant business. Full eye contact, loudly growling and snarling. When the guy stepped toward me after I told him to leave, Ronin stepped forward VERY quickly, snarling. I called him to stop before he tried to bite - so I don't know what he would have done.

Ronin has protected me once before, and he was *centimeters* from the guy's face, teeth bared at flying towards his face - Ronin was airborn, there was no turning back for him. Ronin would have taken the guy's face off if he hadn't reached the end of his leash (one a prong collar) and I hadn't yanked him back. A human being would probably not be able to fight back after a bite like that, had I let my boy continue on his track. Ronin had holes in his neck from the prong collar after that initial leap, and he went right back to the end of the leash, trying to get at this guy. I had hit Ronin square in the side with my bike tire (accidentally - Ronin swung in front of the bike to face the "attacker" who was coming at my left side) when the guy rushed us. it knocked the wind out of him and he didn't miss a beat and still went for the guy's face. Yep. That's my wimpy, watered down show dog. It's amazing - being hit by a swiftly moving bike and then having a prong collar puncture his neck didn't make him drop his bowels and turn tail. Imagine that. Also interesting... he didn't aim for an extremity, such as a raised/crooked arm or an ankle. He went for one of the most vulnerable areas on the man - his face.

If you'd like to come down and attack me and my dogs, it's okay with me. No bitework pads, either - no sleeves, hidden or otherwise. I think unless someone is on the recieving end of a large angry dog latched onto their face or neck, they really can't say, 'Oh yeah, I'll ignore the crippling pain and beat the dog off me. Simple as pie."

I'm going to bow out of this thread, now that I've shared my personal experiences. It's obvious that the opinions in this thread are not going to be changed - excuses and speculations are running rampant. I'll move on and stick to a "less hot" topic.

I'm not sure who your post is directed at Sizzle, but I never made assumptions about show-line dogs in any breed other than the one I know. I'm glad that your dogs are great protectors. It makes me happy to know that some dogs *can* be bred for appearance and still do their job.

RD - it was directed at OC.

I think its a misconception people have. Not necessarily on this board, but in general. People seem to equate working dogs with hyper things that will destroy the house and eat the neighbors kid AND yorkie at the first chance.

To me, the most important part of a working dog is temperament, followed by structure. With pointing breeds and herders especially, the dog must have a good mind. You need the dog to run out, next to a bit sized quail, or a yummy lamb, and NOT eat it. The dog needs to stop, work it, and leave it alone. This is a very tough task for a dog who can not think.

Yes, many have high energy, but it needs to be controllable. 30min of leash walking might not cut it. Thats not to say that each working dog requires 5h of work to stay sane. Maybe some do, but there are others who wont. Some of the most hyper- bowling ball dogs I've known are show type dogs, often mixed with something else after their parents hopped a fence or 2.

A working Sheltie or Collie might never see a sheep. There are other "Job" they can have. While I would not support people breeding a Sheltie for agility only, there are dogs within every sheep breeding that are not fit for the farm, these are often very good in the home and the agility field.

What it comes down to is a simple question. Is a dog's worth based on what is inside, or based on looks. To me, the the subject of conformation is pretty simple. Does a German Shepherd look like a German Shepherd? If it looks like a GSD, and works like a GSD, its a GSD. If EITHER part of that equation is missing, it is NOT a GSD.

I'm not suggesting everyone should own pugs and Chis. There are many working pups that do not have the required desire, and there are many breeds created primarily for show, or well suited to home life.

The Sussex Spaniel, and Field spaniel were created for shows. The Clumber is a calm, slow moving working dog. Even the Field bred Boykins and American Water Spaniels are meant to live at home.

Poodles- 3 sizes, and well separated from their working roots.
Dalmatian- an excellent example of a high energy non working dog that gets people into trouble.
Retired Greyhounds, very much working bred dogs.
Beagles if you keep it on a leash.
Plus all the toy breeds.

Honestly...these threads are starting to drive me nuts as well.

As someone mentioned before, the absolute INABILITY for one side to see ANY legitimacy to the other makes such a debate nearly pointless.

I get a kick out of the people saying that Sizzle "still doesn't know if her dogs are appropriate guardians until they are actually attacked." HUH? How on Earth do you suppose she should test her animals in the way you suggest? Stand on a corner in the red light district with her dogs and wait? And don't suggest Schutzhund. Yes, it's intense protection-dog training, but at the end of the day it is STILL a SPORT and I guarantee you the dogs recognize this. There is a HUGE difference in going after a human being wearing a massive sleeve (who I'm guessing isn't going to be screaming in agony...), and going after real flesh and blood. Furthermore, often in these tests the dogs KNOW the person they're "attacking." Now, dogs in the police force actually get to "test" their training...but it goes without saying, some dogs DO fail out when it comes to a real life situation. Sizzle's dogs were IN a real life situation and performed admirably.

And I'm tired of hearing the same old adage- "show breeders ruin all breeds." (Or it's well-known counterpart...AKC ruins all breeds...which it can't do, because AKC is a registry, NOT a breeder). You know, it's just NOT that simple, although it would be a lot easier to lay the blame if it was. In the case of my own breed (which didn't gain any kind of foothold in the US until the very late 80s), show breeders really had nothing to do with them until long AFTER they had changed course.

So what changed them?

Progress. Development.

The fact that in modern Japan you are very hard-pressed to find wild boar and bear (although there are still *some.*)

Point is, how do you continue to breed a working dog for a job that doesn't functionally exist? Do you just stop?

These dogs were versatile, wonderful companions nevertheless. The same characterstics that made them wonderful hunters (aloof, independent, bright), also made them fantastic pets.

You can't possibly blame breeders for not breeding "working dogs" when functionally, their job does NOT exist in a present context. (And yes, I understand how this is different from breeding dogs like Border Collies- which DO have a job that not only exists, but isn't quite as dangerous as hunting bear). Just the same...I challenge anyone to MEET my dogs and tell me that they've denigrated into fluffy, toy-like, cotton-brained, a$$-kissers, simply because I choose to show them. HA...good LUCK training my VERY independent, Nordic dogs. All I can say is, the Japanese would be d@mn proud of Kimi, who proves the Shiba adage "they don't call them b!tches for nothing." She is ALL typical Shiba.

There are still a few breeders in Japan that have the wealth and resources to be able to use their dogs to hunt boar in their home country- and you can BET that the breeders I obtain my dogs from are CONSTANTLY importing dogs from those lines.

My dogs are successful dispatchers of all manner of vermin in my backyard.

But honestly- it's all well and easy for some "working only" types to look down their noses at show breeders, without really realizing that the logistics of breeding a working animal that can perform its ORIGINAL job might be a little harder for others than for you.

If I had the money and time to go off to hunt wild boar and bear in Japan with my dogs...well that would be fantastic. But it's a bit more expensive than finding the nearest sheep herding facility. Or hell...perhaps somewhere in Alaska someone will decided to hold hunt tests for Shibas and Akitas and we'll go track Grizzlies. I guess we'll know who wins by who comes back alive, right? I'd LOOOOOVE to be able to find some volunteer judges for THAT test.

So, I have to make do with what I have. What is accessible to me. What is SAFE for both my dogs and myself. My dog's job is more of a historical note than anything, but that doesn't mean I want Shibas to turn into toys. So instead I run my dogs in agility. (Shibas NEED to be agile and quick to dodge wild boar or bear paws). And I'm beginning to train them in tracking (this is a breed that hunts by both scent and sound). I run them daily for miles. I study movement. And yeah...I show. But that's at most 5-6 minutes per day during the weekend. Don't think for a moment that I expect that my dog's TRUE worth as a breeding prospect can be ADEQUATELY measured in a few minutes of trotting in a small ring. At the end of the day, conformation is just one other fun (yes, it's fun) thing I can do with my dogs, that simultaneously proves that I care about this breed. Any breeder's program is a sum of ALL of its parts.

There ARE breeds out there that can perform in the conformation ring AND are still admirable working dogs. Wirehaired Pointing Griffons come to mind. German Shortairs. And yeah...Shibas (There are indeed NIPPO national winners that are ALSO successful boar hunters).

When my breeding program begins in earnest you can BET that I'll only be breeding animals with titles on both ends.

This is why the best people in the breed and the people who really care are the ones who breed for temperament and characteristics along with structure,

The best breeders are the ones who can create a dog that can excel at its original purpose yet have the conformatin to achieve in the show ring,

Hmmm... this kind of reminds me of a discussion I read when I first got into sledding in regards to the AKC approaching the ISDRA about creating a breed standard for the Alaskan Husky.
That request was rejected by the sledding community to preserve the working dog nature of the breed.. or type I suppose.
That works for us... it doesn't work for everybody.

However, OC since you brought Show and working sibes up, you might want to read about a certain musher by the name of Karen Ramstead, who has run and completed the Iditarod with her team of show quality sibes. Both of her leaders from the 2006 Iditarod have won conformation titles. She does not win, against the Alaskan, but even the purebred working lines cannot compete with the Alaskan, hence the purebred only races started by people who were sore about there wonderful purebred dog loosing to what is, by definition of many of them, a mutt.

So did shows wreck the Siberian? well maybe... but the working sibes can't beat the Alaskans anyways. And lord help you if you try and use a malamute at a race.

And now of course we have Eurohounds who also beat the pants off the purebred sibes.

In the sled world the Alaskan Husky(a mutt) has rained supreme since the 70's. Is that the show worlds fault? Not likely since the Alaskan was beating the race lines who had been race and working lines there entire existence.

And I'm not going to speak on anything outside the sled world, because I don't really know a thing about it

.. SOO glad that Belgians aren't affected

People may not change their minds very often, but with 10 lurkers to 1 poster, I hope this debate helps someone. Its been civil, so we can keep doing this until we get sick of it

tempura tantrum, in all fairness, didn't you say in the past that you worked very hard to find a breeder who had "working" dogs? While we don't have so many bears we can test dogs on, you are showing that you are trying to retain much of the dogs working temperament and ability.

I'll be your Grizzly judge if you want, as long as we don't have to catch one! There are also a ton of feral pigs you can try out Short of that, even keeping physical ability in mind is a great asset.

Back to the German Shepherds, many breeders are so completely caught up with the flying trot that they let anything else fall apart if it helps the dog trot better. That might help win shows, but it does not help the breed. Compare those to working police dogs, or even the Schultzhund sport dogs.

I think Tempura takes things a little personally because she is actively involved in shows, but she/he is involved with a breed that i dont know much about, but it doesn't seem to have been greatly affected. She does do things that require her dogs to have working abilities, tracking, etc. So working abilities are in your thoughts when breeding dogs. Other breeds haven't been so lucky GENERALLY speaking.

I"m sure in a few years if history repeats itself as the original article pointed out that there will be BC's that won't know what to do if a Sheep came up and bit its ear off, but will be an AKC conformation champion. I guess a sheep could come up to a working dog and bite its ear off as well, but the big difference is the working dog won't be bred again, and the AKC champion will be bred over and over and over again, because it's an AKC champ. without having to show one once of what makes a BC a BC other than it conforms to the standards that are popular at that time.

IN GSD's most of the dogs that are winning in the AKC conformation rings don't even match their WRITTEN standards. It's appalling, so yes, while the AKC may just be a registry and the responsibility lays with lots of people, to say their hands are clean is just sticking your head in the sand IMO.

Like I said before i have never seen a working GSD that i've mistaken for something else EVER. When "show" dogs start having to prove something i'll take them a little more seriously. I've seen plenty of "show" GSD's that are great dogs, much fewer and farther between, but still some very nice dogs. ANd those people work very hard to get a dog that can win in the ring and on the fields. BUT I think as long as a dog fits conformationally within the standards, the rest of their "show" rating should be based on performance. Why can't an AKC champ be REQUIRED to have a performance rating??? What's everyone afraid of?? Each breed would be different, but that isn't something I can answer, why not get the parent clubs involved, i'm sure something could be done.

I know Karen personally, she's a great woman. If any of you ever get the chance to meet her, definitely do it. But anyhow, look at her pedigrees. Her breeding program now is very different from when she started out. She's got some typey working bred dogs, and some dogs that have 3/4 racing pedigree and 1/4 show pedigree. She is not running show Siberians, as I would define them. The Canadian Kennel Club show scene is also quite different from the AKC show scene, IMO and that of countless others.

I beat Alaskans when I raced purebreds. Blake and Jen Freking (Manitou Crossing/Jedeye, who I worked for from '01-'02 season) have done amazing with their purebred racing Siberians. Blake WON the Beargrease a couple years ago - against a competitive field of Alaskans. It has a lot to do with training and build, not just breed. And as for the purebred only races (which I do not care for), these are often used for show Siberian folks to get together and trade off who wins to earn SD titles - that's been my obersvation, anyhow.

Hehehe...nope. That doesn't work. The POINT of bear hunting with Shibas was to catch one, otherwise wouldn't you just be mindlessly following bears? SERIOUSLY...would you really want to do that? When push comes to shove, and the reality set in, I'm pretty sure you'd be hard pressed to find a large group of people who would feel comfortable with such a test!

As for the feral pigs...I've yet to see many (make that any) in the Pacific Northwest- despite regular jaunts into the backwoods and brush with my dogs. And as of now, I'd need at least 3-4 more dogs to give mine a fighting chance (Shibas are feisty as all heck, but they're also pretty small, so the Matagi traditionally used packs of Shibas to trail and bring down boar). Now perhaps this would be easier for people in the South, where feral pigs are actually an issue...but Shibas aren't yet very popular there. Who knows- it may well become a reality in the future. Until then I'm a bit stuck.

I *can* tell you that my show girl's reaction to a boar (kept in captivity) at 6 months of age was everything I wanted it to be. She had never seen ANY sort of a pig before in her life. Hackles up, standing tall and leaning forward (like a "little Mt. Fuji," as the Japanese say), low, throaty growl, and displaying all the spirited boldness of a dog far older than her. It was clear this was gut instinct- had I chosen to let go of her lead, the results would NOT have been pretty. Needless to say, I was pretty happy with my "stupid show dog," LOL.


You bet I said that. But these breeders ALSO show their dogs. (And they EXCEL). There is no either/or. Those who originated this breed were very quick to point out that part of what makes a Shiba a Shiba is not just what it does, but also how it looks. There are any number of Japanese breeds that do the same job Shibas do (Akita, Kishu, Shikoku, Kai...) and for the most part, they all have a fairly consistent look. It is the small differences in conformation, the nuances, that allow us to keep these breeds distinct. And this was important enough to the Japanese that each of these breeds were designated national treasures.

The lucky Japanese hunt with their dogs for pleasure- I can honestly say that I don't believe there is any form of a "Shiba Hunt Test" in Japan, it's just an activity that the wealthiest of people are able to do. Space is at an ULTIMATE premium in Japan- there is nothing more precious, and therefore, nothing more expensive. To be able to live in the country and have access to land where hunting boar would even be feasible, you have to be making ridiculous amounts of money. Case in point, it is a small minority of even Japanese breeders that are able to allow their dogs to perform an ancient hunting ritual.

I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that the Shiba's traditional vocation is a dying one. I fully respect those breeders who DO use their Shibas to hunt boar and bear, but also understand that REALITY precludes most of them from doing so. The fact that AKC put us in the Non-Sporting Group says as much- by the time we got ahold of Shibas, most JAPANESE people weren't hunting with them.

(And completely OT...I HATE the Non-Sporting Group. I think the title alone does a disservice to every breed that has the misfortune to be placed within it. Not because true fanciers begin to think of their dogs as "pets only," but because anyone AFTER will.)

But I digress.

So the rest of us do our fair best to approximate such hunting skills as closely as possible. It's why I think tracking and agility are events worthy of my time. It's why I think road-working a dog is more than taking just a walk, or even jogging, it's going on a training run with me for 10-15 miles. Conversely, it's why I'll be wary of any Shiba that gets a UD. (And I say that only partially in jest ).

Whatzmatter- maybe I DO take things a little personally, but I guess it's only because I tend to see people involved in the show world at ALL (often regardless of breed), painted with the same broad strokes. And frankly, generalizations that big are NEVER completely accurate.

You're right- my breed isn't completely affected. (Although I won't be so naive as to say that there aren't some people out there breeding Goldens in Shiba suits). And that's because a good number of people involved in my breed took it upon themselves to take both aspects of this dog seriously. People in "breed X" DIDN'T do that. And while both Shibas and "breed x" are involved in conformation shows, one breed falters and the other flourishes. So then, what's the actual problem? The conformation show itself (which the brightest of breeders will realize is but a FACET of a breeding program, not the singular proof that their stock is fantastic), or the actual BREEDERS?

I'll stick with the answer in caps EVERY TIME. It is NOT impossible to value both function and conformation. BREED CLUBS own their standards- NOT the AKC. If the standard is being changed, it sure as heck isn't AKC doing it, but the very people that say they love and want to preserve their breed. If you are so blinded by a 50 cent scrap of ribbon that you find yourself willing to change EVERYTHING that makes your breed what it is...well then, you're best off simply not showing dogs. Unfortunately, there's no law that can stop people from doing that, nor is there one that can stop people from riding the wave of fads. It is up to each individual breeder to do what is in their breed's best interest.

The BC people are angry as heck about the way the show BCs look and behave. And I can't say that I blame them. I feel that the majority of show BCs look more like Australian Shepherds with tails. But where in the heck did those first show dogs come from? How did a large enough faction of people completely uninterested in the functionality of this breed get intact dogs, so that they could "create the monster," so to speak? At the very least, a large percentage of people got so caught up in the idea of AKC recognition, and conformation shows, that they forgot (or stopped caring) to work their dogs.

There is no rule saying you have to stop. People in the breed CHOSE to- or sold intact dogs to people that did. And THAT isn't the fault of conformation shows itself, but of breeders who cared more about winning than dogs.

I have seen many a Saluki and Basenji champion that were also champions in the field.

Even the National Dal club does a trail-riding test that tests for compatibility and workability with horses. Despite the fact that there are certainly no carriages running down city streets these days. Now you can't force people to take these tests, but I can tell you...if I ever bought a Dal, I know who I would get one from.

Thanks for the debate guys. It's especially nice when it remains as civil as it has.