Favorite specimens of your breed

Erica, I apologize. I made a post based on misinformation. I understand why you are upset, and I didn't mean to offend you. I felt very passionate about a slew of issues I could see coming on breeding a double merle, because I thought it was essentially the same as breeding merle to merle.

^ This is still a concern, but it's not nearly the issue I thought it was.

Well hopefully there won't be any more "accidents". :/

How can merle x merle be done safely, again?

LOL you're so clever! ^^

Gosh, thanks. I assume that means you won't actually be answering my question.

Yes, yes and yes. One of the most "respected" and well-known show APBT breeders knowingly bred dogs with sub-aortic stenosis and other issues. Another "respected" breeder openly claimed that he would continue to breed a certain famous bitch "until her uterus fell out" and I believe she was bred at least 10 times. Reputable != ethical.

Holy snark... Can't we all be civil?

Yes please!

This is a heated subject but the amount of personal attacks and just outright meanness isn't necessary on all sides.

Plus it could be an interesting/educational discussion.

I agree! I think it's an very interesting subject and good to discuss, but not if people are going to get incredibly upset and attack because of it.

Actually the act of condoning, supporting, etc was called gross and sad. You, as a person, haven't given enough of yourself to allow judgement and frankly it's none of my business.

To be frank I'm not sure what clique you're referring too. There are several people who agree on any topic, there just happens to be a stronger consensus on this one. Are you alone? Of course not. Are you alone in your reasoning for disliking ecollars or showing border collies (which still confuses me why either were brought up in these topics)? Of course not.

Just because people (I haven't kept score) disagree with the creation and or further breeding of the dog at hand does not mean people are ganging up and attacking you as a person.

I just joined this forum like two months ago, I'm not sure I count as being in a "clique".

But the breeding of him was still unethical. I don't care if he's the most amazing dog to ever walk the planet. Breeding merle x merle is still rolling the dice and potentially producing puppies with no eyes in order to make a pretty color. How is that ever worth it?

He's not being bred to merles. Why ever not? I mean, if he's so amazing, and breeding merle x merle is not an ethical hangup, why not continue to make more?

God I'm glad I"m not involved in conformation. It doesn't matter one whit what color my dogs are.

TBH I don't entirely see how breeding a double merle with hearing or vision issues is any different than a double merle without. Those are not health issues the dog will pass onto their offspring.

I don't have a merle breed, so this is all information I have heard second-hand from breeders and friends in other breeds. Keep in mind, in lots of breeder circles breeding merle x merle is taboo, most people won't talk about it, or disclose information. You're shunned if you do it, but those same people will beat down your doors to breed to your double merle stud dogs or buy a pup out of a double merle bitch.

Most people just don't mess with it. There are a few breeders I have heard of who do double merle breedings and do them successfully. By successfully I mean, they study pedigrees and health testing, do the testing on their own dogs, and health test the puppies. I've heard some breeders can do the breedings with little to no risk to the puppies. I have never personally heard of any puppy being born without eyes. Not saying it doesn't happen, but it sound like one of those HSUS/puppy mill horror stories. Keep repeating it to the public until they are so afraid of the consequences they won't breed.

There are breeders out there with 20, 30, 40 yrs experience that really do claim to know how to minimize the risk of merle x merle breeding. Much like in koolies or catahoulas. Breeding dogs with less "chrome" and larger black spots with minimal merle dogs in the pedigrees to other dogs who are similar. I was told it comes down to knowing the pedigrees etc. Of course, you hear all of this stuff, and hear names thrown around, and suspect some breeders of it, but no one will outright admit to it most of the time because of the exact attitude that I'm seeing in this thread. Has it been taboo? Yes. Is there possibly a way to do it safely? Yes. Why not open your minds to being educated and learning instead of immediately attacking anyone who even owns a double merle dog?

The consequences can be bad, yes, but my breed isn't a merle breed and we have an extremely high deafness rate with puppies out of full-hearing parents. Should we stop breeding cattle dogs? Well, I won't.

I guess I also hate the double edged sword... "It's ok for koolies and catahoulas, but **** everyone else."

Yes, I understand that there are people who claim to know how, I would like some evidence that it is true.

Because dogs shouldn't pay the price for something that is as easily avoided as simply not taking a chance with another being's life based on the speculation that breeding less flashy dogs results in a lesser risk. I really believe it is wrong and it riles me up. If people truly believe it's true that it can be done safely, and want me to open my mind, then they should study it and garner some evidence to convince me instead of doing it in secret, not talking about it, or refusing to admit that you do it. It doesn't help open my mind to behave like what you are doing is wrong.

As it is, human nature being what it is, until proven otherwise I think it's more likely that it's just people finding a way to justify the things they want to do anyway. Happens every day all across the world with lots of things, why not dog breeding? Breeders are human beings, too, with human motivations and faults, and it doesn't take that long for "bad to become normal" when the alternative is to admit to yourself and others that after 20, 30, 40 years you've been playing roulette with puppies' lives.

I don't think it's ok for koolies and catahoulas, and I suspect that a lot of puppies are quietly culled. From what Linds is saying, at least there is an effort being made to introduce solids into koolies - which is good, because when you know better, you should do better. But it will take time to get enough solid dogs in that population to eliminate merle x merle breeding.

Yes, please! I'm not well versed in merle/merle breedings beyond basic facts, but this topic is definitely a very interesting and enlightening discussion!

Yes, another member pointed this out earlier, and I commented back. Thanks for pointing that misunderstanding out, though.

This does not really have anything with merle/merle breeding, but I, too have have heard it said that those close breedings such as mother/son, generally turn out either really good, or really bad.

You aren't going to get that from a breeder. They aren't going to risk being kicked out of their national breed club etc just because someone on the internet wants verification. People don't play games with this and don't hesitate to call someone up in front of an ethics committee.

Best look towards science and breeding laboratories to get a colony of merle dogs to start breeding.

Most of the double merles that I've seen have microopthalmia to some degree. It ranges from eyes imperceptibly smaller than normal to eyes that are completely missing. I assure you that it's not just a scare tactic.

yup and I didnt bring the oops up as an effort to say all incestual breedings are bad, they are a dangerous die roll though, I brought it up to reference a dog who was produced with outstanding conformation and coat but held other issues not fit for breeding per the standards of the owner. I respect the choice not to breed a dog with issues long before those who make excuses to breed dogs, of course that may just be close minded and elitist but dogs are more than a breeding program to me. I don't have the stomach to heighten the risks of producing puppies with crippling or fatal birth defects.

There are entire rescues for dogs with double Merle issues, it would be nicer if it were just a scare tactic.

Honestly there may be a way to breed these double Merle safely but a greater question is why and if so why does it have such a bad name? I can't justify dead puppies, culling, and what not just to get an ideally colored dog. I suppose it confuses me more than anything.

The important one I saw earlier was if a Merle to Merle was *not* dangerous why is the owner/breeder being very clear they won't breed Casper to another Merle?