Favorite specimens of your breed

[PlottMom]

Every time you post a picture of Plotts I get raging hound fever. *WAAAANT*

Do they bay as much as say, a beagle?

No, mine are pretty quiet until a kid on a scooter or a big-wheel goes down the street... they don't like the noise, so they run to the fence roaring... a "SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN!" usually stops it.

Bear is really noisy, but that's because I was letting him live inside with us, so when he went back to Andy and had to live outside, he protested. Andy said his neighbors are going to burn his house down. But mine are quiet. lol

 

[Sit Stay]

Sit Stay those are some gorgeous ES!

Maybe once my lil mini/hobby farm is up and running...

Fortunately I think Kim is going to make a great catchall hobby farm dog, though she's getting a late start. ES are such cool well-rounded, well-grounded dogs though <3

Aw you would be the perfect ES owner! And I can totally see Kim as a little farm dog

 

[OwnedByBCs]

Ok, some of my favorite BCs-

First, there is Sage. She didn't compete much, a bit in obedience, but she is by far the most amazing Border Collie in history. An import from England, where the best of this breed come from... her owner Diane bought her as her next Search and Rescue prospect. She was brilliant- a natural- and was one of the youngest dogs to be certified with FEMA. She was just 2 years old on September 11th, 2001, and was called to search for missing persons at the pentagon, where she found remains of one of the terrorists. Then, she was sent to search for missing girl Natalie Holloway in Aruba, then was deployed after Katrina. In 2007, Sage and Diane were sent to Iraq to search for missing soldiers. For her work, Sage was awarded the 2009 AKC A.C.E. Award for Search and Rescue, then in 2011 would step into the limelight again as she won the very prestigious Hero Dog Award for Search and Rescue. Sage was diagnosed with cancer, and a fund was set up to help pay for medical expenses- and so much money was raised that there were leftovers after Sage's surgery, so The Sage Foundation was started, which donates money to help pay medical expenses of service dogs. When my 13 year old BC was diagnosed with cancer, he was helped by the Sage Foundation.

Sorry for the book Anyways, here's Sage, AKA Lydeardlea's Desert Song CD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSZWjIXHFrA&feature=player_embedded

What can I say about the fabulous Twister. He is not only breathtakingly gorgeous, with a temperament that can only be described as ideal for a BC, he is probably one of the most versatile dogs I have ever seen. He's a dock diver, runs agility, works sheep every day... he's incredible. Built like a dream and works low to the ground. He is a great dog, and I know he will give us great puppies this year.

UAGII UKC-GRCH BCSA-V AHBA-HTCh AKC-DC Glenangus TX Twister O JiJin HSAsc HSBs HIAds HIBs HXAsc OA NAJ NF HTAD III-s HTD III-s HTD-Id HRD III-s RLF III-s EAC OJC ECC TG-E O-TN-E WV-O HP-N SJ CGC

Next, Tally, AKA Sh Ch Littlethorn Continental. The sire to my 2010 litter. He produces amazing puppies, who are incredibly driven, extremely talented on sheep, and structurally excellent.

One of Tally's daughters, Eve, is my dream dog. I am lucky to have her half sister Riot who is extremely similar to her. Eve is an ISDS Register on Merit, and a very talented trial dog.

Those are some of my favorites. I could post all day if I had the time, there are so many fantastic dogs out there.

 

[OwnedByBCs]

Tucker&Me- Spy is REALLY gorgeous. Love that dark face with those piercing eyes. Where did you get him?

 

[Pops2]

i don't even worry about it, different time different social norms. there is more important stuff now to get wound up over than a dog's name from way back when (for that matter there was more important stuff then to get bent about).

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

Tucker&Me- Spy is REALLY gorgeous. Love that dark face with those piercing eyes. Where did you get him?

Thanks! It's funny, I never used to be that attracted to tricolour until I got one. In fact, I was a bit bummed that the breeder recommended the tricolour dog in the litter to me I was so hoping for a black and white dog... But obviously colour takes a back seat to temperament so I went with her recommendation and am now very happy I did

He is from a breeder in Saskatchewan, but she is no longer breeding So I will be finding a new breeder for the next puppy, which will hopefully be not too far off.

 

[ihartgonzo]

I don't want to start anything but... all double merle breedings have a risk of producing lethal white (blind and/or deaf) puppies. I assume he's BAER and CERF tested... so thats all fine and dandy... but the whole premise of intentionally breeding a merle to a merle, to me, is irresponsible. Just saying.

I know... and I don't condone intentionally breeding merles to merles. BUT, look at Koolies, they are very often bred merle to merle. I feel there is a safe way to do it. And from speaking with Kim personally, Casper is the result of an accidental breeding.

 

[ihartgonzo]

I do think it's interesting that in a thread about examples of dogs who "embod[y] what the breed should be" someone would post a dog who is not to standard, half-deaf, and the result of what most people consider to be unethical breeding practices. The only thing remarkable about Casper is that he's a "rare" color.

Says a lot about what people look for in dogs, doesn't it. And why "color breeders" are so successful.

He's just one of my favorites. The title is "favorite specimens", and I really love Casper, he's gorgeous! He was an accident but he's a beautiful accident.

Gonzo is one of my favorite Border Collies, but he's far from what a BC should be, conformationally and otherwise. Sorry I didn't read the first post carefully, and post only the BEST dogs of my breed. It's all opinion/preference! Why get nasty and pick on some one?!

Haters gonna hate. Gross and sad, that's me!!! Funny, because I fostered a badly bred, deaf double merle Aussie and know of the issue pretty well. That Aussie was also a wonderful, gorgeous dog.

 

[MandyPug]

He's just one of my favorites. The title is "favorite specimens", and I really love Casper, he's gorgeous! He was an accident but he's a beautiful accident.

Gonzo is one of my favorite Border Collies, but he's far from what a BC should be, conformationally and otherwise. Sorry I didn't read the first post carefully, and post only the BEST dogs of my breed. It's all opinion/preference! Why get nasty and pick on some one?!

Haters gonna hate. Gross and sad, that's me!!! Funny, because I fostered a badly bred, deaf double merle Aussie and know of the issue pretty well. That Aussie was also a wonderful, gorgeous dog.

No, he was not an accident. The breeders bred two merles together knowing **** well what could come out of it. The people that bought him also knew what they were purchasing and now they're breeding him all over.

That Aussie you fostered, would you have bred it like the people are breeding that double merle partly deaf cardi? Sure they can be wonderful and gorgeous, but their creation is against the CWCCA code of ethics.

Blue Merles may be bred to blacks (with or without red or brindle points) only.

http://cardigancorgis.com/CodeOfEthics.asp

To put something that is unethical to create as your opinion of something that is a stellar specimen of the breed is absolutely disgusting. All he has going for him is that he's a "fancy rare white".

 

[ihartgonzo]

Blue Merles may be bred to blacks (with or without red or brindle points) only.

I disagree with this, and was going to buy a puppy from a Blue Merle x Brindle litter before I adopted Fozzie... there is definitely a split in Cardigan circles regarding colors and breeding. It drastically limits the gene pool and limits amazing breedings and colors to prohibit ANY other color besides black with blue merles.

Where did you find the info about Casper's litter being intentional? I'm messaging Kim on FB to clarify, but I swear she said Casper & Wendy were from an accidental breeding. Regardless, she loves those dogs, they're healthy, even service dogs! I do hope that the breeding wasn't intentional but I stand behind her as being completely dedicated to bettering the breed & an amazing breeder. I would love to know how many of you are also vehemently against Koolie merle to merle breedings.

No, I wouldn't have bred that deaf Aussie. He was poorly bred, out of standard, had a weird temperament and he was abandoned in a shelter by a known double merle Aussie puppy mill! He was also completely deaf. No way would I breed him. I know for a fact that these Cardigans are well bred and amazingly cared for and they nor their offspring would end up in a shelter. Casper is a gorgeous dog with beautiful confo and a perfect temperament for the breed, he's not just a "rare white"... whatev I'm so sick of being jumped on by politically correct elitists whenever I give an honest opinion. Let me stop and check my posts for anything that might offend anyone from now on. This is a dog forum, not the end of the world.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

You can take things as personally as you please but it's not you anyone takes issue with. For the record I see more emotion and excitement in your responses than the posts you're rebutting. It's the idea of condoning, supporting, and encouraging a dangerous breeding that people take issue with.

It is gross and sad to breed a breeding that is known (safe in some circles or not) to produce crippled puppies.

I believe those of us have also said the Koolie breedings make us uncomfortable when they are merle to merle. Just like the Catahoulas. Does that mean they aren't somehow different? I'm not sure, honestly, but in certain breeds it has been done enough and proven dangerous enough that it's a sad shame that anyone is willing to risk the lives of innocents in an effort to achieve a pretty face.

 

[Fran101]

I believe the issue with Koolies is that they are such a rarer breed first of all, so yea, limiting merle x merle would SERIOUSLY limit their gene pool. And also since, for the most part, these dogs are recognized as being merles and to many, they are a MERLE BREED, so MOST of the breeding animals out there are merle regardless. The reprocussions of further limiting the gene pool by only breeding the MANY merles to the few non-merles wouldn't be a very good idea either.

Other breeds.. aussies, cardigans, etc.. it would not have such a drastic effect on the gene pool nor would it be that difficult to find a dog that suits yours that isn't merle! They aren't primarily merle breeds and there are plenty of them out there.

Really the only reason TO knowingly do this, as a breeder of a popular breed that you COULD easily find another stud/bitch otherwise that suits your needs, is to hop on the chance for pretty puppies and throw health to the way side for a chance to do it.

Just my 2 cents.

I don't agree with it regardless. but I tend to kind of conceded on rarer breeds such as the Koolie where they are KNOWN as merle and most of the dogs are merle.. so there is kind of a history and whole thing behind it other than "OoO.. pretty puppies!"

 

[stafinois]

If the reason for breeding merle to merle is considered acceptable due to the lack of solids and low population, that is pretty ridiculous from a scientific standpoint.

If you breed a merle to a merle, statistically you will get 1/2 merle, 1/4 solid, 1/4 double merle. If you breed a merle to a solid, you will get 1/2 merle and 1/2 solid, which will increase the breed's genetic diversity and population of breedable dogs.

In Catahoulas often double merles are born with normal sight, hearing, and a good deal of color. Why it doesn't strike Catahoulas as hard as other breeds, I don't know. My guess is that they have some sort of unidentified modifier that overcomes it? It's been brought up in Koolies that they don't produce as many afflicted double merles as other breeds. Perhaps they have the same thing going on as in Catahoulas, but I question if it is due to a high rate of reabsorption of the truly lethal white puppies. If so, it's incredibly stupid to be breeding merle to merle consistently and reducing the population by ensuring that 1/4 of their litters are never born.

Without testing the puppies to see if they are heterozygous or homozygous merle, we won't know. Considering that health testing doesn't seem to be done in the breed, I doubt anybody will be getting to the bottom of the color issue any time soon.

 

[sassafras]

I feel there is a safe way to do it.

How is that?

 

[Linds]

Ok, so since Koolies have been brought up multiple times now I'll give what info I have.

First off they are considered a merle breed and have been thought of like that for pretty much ever. They also look very similar to Kelpies so it's my understanding that many people considered solids to be Kelpies (or throw backs) and the merles real Koolies.

Something that needs to be understood is that the founders in this breed and many of the breeders to this day are not people educated in genetics. They have bucket loads of common sense and experience but not any scientific learning. Because of that things were assumed, like the fact that if it wasn't merle it wasn't a Koolie. And it's hard when you have a ranch and want to breed your Koolie to another and Tom over there says "I have Koolies!" but it's a solid black that looks like the Kelpie that likes to roam around from Tims farm.

Yes, we all know that you can get a merle even if Tim's Kelpie got to Toms merle Koolie. But it was just the way it worked. Merle=Koolie Solid=Not Koolie.

Now, because of this they worked with the merle to merle rather than just not do it. Merle dogs that produced a lot of high whites were not bred, dogs that produced a lot of nicely marked dogs that could hear and see fine where bred more. Blind or deaf? They were culled. Dogs with more solid patches and less white showed to produce less issues so they were bred more.

When you have a breed that's bred like that for generations upon generations, working away from defects while still breeding merle to merle I think it does make a difference. The chance of getting a double merle doesn't change but the consequences do because they have been bred away from producing dogs with defects.

I also think cryptic merles or very very minimally merled merles become much more common which seems to lead to dogs with good pigment that produce nicely colored double merles. I would be super curious to see if a lot of the solids came up genetically as actually solids honestly.

In addition I think they have an edge, much like Catahoula's because they are not bred for a lot of white in Irish Trim markings. I really think those Irish trims, with the white all around the head and neck really really add to the occurrence of blind and deafness in double merles.

And honestly, at the end of the day these ranchers and breeders aren't going to not breed their best worker with their other best worker because both are merle and try to find a solid that matches their dog when those are not anywhere near as common in the breed.

Times are changing and solids are slowly being brought into a lot of breeders stock but it's still one solid for every ten merles and that makes merle to merle a reality in the breed.

ETA: Koolies don't have a small population, they just are a mostly merle population.

 

[vandog]

This discussion is getting interesting! I've started a new thread "Double Merle Breeding" if any or all of you want to comment.

 

[Lizmo]

Ok, so since Koolies have been brought up multiple times now I'll give what info I have.

First off they are considered a merle breed and have been thought of like that for pretty much ever. They also look very similar to Kelpies so it's my understanding that many people considered solids to be Kelpies (or throw backs) and the merles real Koolies.

Something that needs to be understood is that the founders in this breed and many of the breeders to this day are not people educated in genetics. They have bucket loads of common sense and experience but not any scientific learning. Because of that things were assumed, like the fact that if it wasn't merle it wasn't a Koolie. And it's hard when you have a ranch and want to breed your Koolie to another and Tom over there says "I have Koolies!" but it's a solid black that looks like the Kelpie that likes to roam around from Tims farm.

Yes, we all know that you can get a merle even if Tim's Kelpie got to Toms merle Koolie. But it was just the way it worked. Merle=Koolie Solid=Not Koolie.

Now, because of this they worked with the merle to merle rather than just not do it. Merle dogs that produced a lot of high whites were not bred, dogs that produced a lot of nicely marked dogs that could hear and see fine where bred more. Blind or deaf? They were culled. Dogs with more solid patches and less white showed to produce less issues so they were bred more.

When you have a breed that's bred like that for generations upon generations, working away from defects while still breeding merle to merle I think it does make a difference. The chance of getting a double merle doesn't change but the consequences do because they have been bred away from producing dogs with defects.

I also think cryptic merles or very very minimally merled merles become much more common which seems to lead to dogs with good pigment that produce nicely colored double merles. I would be super curious to see if a lot of the solids came up genetically as actually solids honestly.

In addition I think they have an edge, much like Catahoula's because they are not bred for a lot of white in Irish Trim markings. I really think those Irish trims, with the white all around the head and neck really really add to the occurrence of blind and deafness in double merles.

And honestly, at the end of the day these ranchers and breeders aren't going to not breed their best worker with their other best worker because both are merle and try to find a solid that matches their dog when those are not anywhere near as common in the breed.

Times are changing and solids are slowly being brought into a lot of breeders stock but it's still one solid for every ten merles and that makes merle to merle a reality in the breed.

ETA: Koolies don't have a small population, they just are a mostly merle population.

Thanks for this post, I was hoping you would chime in! I'm not well versed in the merle/merle topic, however this makes so much sense, really. Not even thinking about the gene/merle part of it, but if you think about it, those farmers are not going to breed a deaf and blind dog when they need a dog who can hear and see to work on their farm. So in terms of those dogs who are merles, they're thinking whose the best worker overall. And breeding those dogs. If the dogs produced alot of deaf and blind pups, they'd try a different breeding till they found a line of dogs that were producing healthy pups. Even if that means breeding and producing merle dogs. Something must have changed in these dogs.

Or it's because they're breeding for dogs that, no matter the color, get the job done. And that's only going to be the ones that can physically do the job. Whereas most of the dogs, such as Cardis, Border Collies, Aussies, etc, are being bred for looks. So it doesn't matter as much if many of the pups are deaf and blind.

Well, I don't know if this post makes any sense, but it makes a little more sense in my mind, now. LOL.

 

[OwnedByBCs]

Last word on the subject- OF COURSE the breeder swears it was accidental! For crying out loud....

 

[ihartgonzo]

Actually, she doesn't. I was thinking of another FB friend who has a white Cardigan. Here's Kim's response... she said I could post it here. And, to be honest, I trust the word of a dedicated, celebrated Cardigan breeder over anyone here rambling about double merles being bred just to make money off of blue merle puppies. No offense. Also, keep in mind, Kim herself has NEVER bred two merles together. His sire is Coedwig's Carbon Blue, another one of my favorite Cardigans ever, and owned by one of the best breeders in this breed.

"Casper has passed every health test available to the breed. Hips, elbows, dm, cardiac, pra. Granted he has an eye issue, but every pup he has produced has passed their cerf. They breed no differently than a blue Merle. The only thing is you can only breed them to a black, as you could produce more dbl merles going to a unknown blue or cryptic.

Did you know the all time number one producing sire is a sheltie that is a double merle? Dachshund people do it, sheltie people do. And it's no different than breeding Dalmatians.

Casper has most of his hearing, due to having no pigment in the ears his scillia never formed and those tiny hairs are what we hear with. He's never produced a deaf pup.

He has the best front of any cardigan out there and has been used in judges ed for it over and over.

I usually tell them ignorance is bliss! And if you don't understand the genetics of the color to shut the f up!

Thanks for supporting him, he is my heart dog and love of my life!

Betty Ann Seeley has Kodak and she has used him for the past 8-10 years and she's been in the breed for over 30 yrs. "

Casper & his son, Teague

Casper's grandson, Boo.

I still stand behind loving Casper, he is one of my favorites. Not just because he's a "rare white", because he's amazingly well put together, has the most soulful eyes, and his perfect Cardi temperament just shines through. Sorry if you find that disgusting. If we're going to talk about disgusting, let's include brachiocephalic breeders, dwarf breeders, Koolie & Catahoula breeders, anyone breeding dogs with ANY chance of having ANY issue or deformity. I am clearly a loving, ethical dog owner... this is clearly a loving, ethical dog breeder. Period.

 

[Laurelin]

Well in dalmatians you don't risk dogs being born with no eyes. I will agree that the risk of deafness is probably about the same though.

I don't understand how we don't understand the genetics of merle? It's a very basic incomplete dominant...