Beyond CM

[Renee750il]

Maybe they all need a good alpha roll in the hay?

[Red.Apricot]

Originally Posted by Renee750il

Maybe they all need a good alpha roll in the hay?

I snorted so hard I woke Elsie up.

[Dogdragoness]

Originally Posted by OwnedByBCs

Honestly I can't stand training discussions. Ever. I'm really not much of a trainer myself- I like teaching my dogs stupid tricks and all that, but when it comes to seminars and training classes I am so not interested. Why? Because most of the trainers I end up with tell me that I'm doing something wrong, even if its producing the desired result. Sorry, I am not of the opinion that learning is done in one specific way.

And yes, I am a "learning based" trainer in the sense that I believe that a clicker and treats are the most powerful tools in dog training- and those are generally the only tools I use. I don't use prongs or chokes or e-collars on my own dogs, ever. Do I think it's wrong to use them on other dogs? Eh, I don't know. I feel like I've never really been shown how a prong improved an owner or a dog's life. But I'm not going to say I never correct my dogs..

I enjoy dog behavior, and I understand it. But for some reason, when people start talking about it, I shut down. Maybe it's because I believe that positive trainers need to be positive with PEOPLE too, or the point is totally lost!

Like 100%

I use whatever method the DOG responds to (most of the time I can get a dog to respond with positive ways BUT some breeds like cattle dogs who are very testy & almost NEED to know where the limit it by being told no & "ah ah!" Every now & again.

"Positive punishment" at the right time isn't always a bad thing

[Linds]

Originally Posted by Dogdragoness

Like 100%

I use whatever method the DOG responds to (most of the time I can get a dog to respond with positive ways BUT some breeds like cattle dogs who are very testy & almost NEED to know where the limit it by being told no & "ah ah!" Every now & again.

"Positive punishment" at the right time isn't always a bad thing

See, that's not it to me. The issue I have isn't that they aren't fans of using correction to train a dog or that they believe no dog needs it to learn.

My issue is shoving that belief down others throats and if they don't follow their strict guidelines of what is or isn't ok they start freaking out about it and chase them around crying dog abuse, laziness and so on.

I have an issue with them hunting around the internet and creating mobs to witch hunt people because they don't train like you. Educate, talk, discuss, lead by example and most of all have a bit of empathy.

[Danefied]

Originally Posted by Linds

See, that's not it to me. The issue I have isn't that they aren't fans of using correction to train a dog or that they believe no dog needs it to learn.

My issue is shoving that belief down others throats and if they don't follow their strict guidelines of what is or isn't ok they start freaking out about it and chase them around crying dog abuse, laziness and so on.

I have an issue with them hunting around the internet and creating mobs to witch hunt people because they don't train like you. Educate, talk, discuss, lead by example and most of all have a bit of empathy.

This this this!

I firmly believe that there are trainers out there good enough that they never need positive punishment. I’m not one of them, I hope to be one day, but I’m not there yet. I am all for someone helping me find that way. But if I show up to learn, don’t start by berating me for what I’m doing. Show me something ELSE to do instead!

[elegy]

Originally Posted by Linds

I have an issue with them hunting around the internet and creating mobs to witch hunt people because they don't train like you. Educate, talk, discuss, lead by example and most of all have a bit of empathy.

This so much.

And this is the bit they do not (cannot?) understand.

[Greenmagick]

Originally Posted by Linds

I have an issue with them hunting around the internet and creating mobs to witch hunt people because they don't train like you. Educate, talk, discuss, lead by example and most of all have a bit of empathy.

This!

I actually agree with the majority of WHAT they are saying, just not execution of it and yes, the hunting around the internet in mob formation. I have seen some really heated nasty arguments over things they are basically even agreeing with each other on.

[Lyzelle]

Originally Posted by OwnedByBCs

Honestly I can't stand training discussions. Ever. I'm really not much of a trainer myself- I like teaching my dogs stupid tricks and all that, but when it comes to seminars and training classes I am so not interested. Why? Because most of the trainers I end up with tell me that I'm doing something wrong, even if its producing the desired result. Sorry, I am not of the opinion that learning is done in one specific way.

And yes, I am a "learning based" trainer in the sense that I believe that a clicker and treats are the most powerful tools in dog training- and those are generally the only tools I use. I don't use prongs or chokes or e-collars on my own dogs, ever. Do I think it's wrong to use them on other dogs? Eh, I don't know. I feel like I've never really been shown how a prong improved an owner or a dog's life. But I'm not going to say I never correct my dogs..

I enjoy dog behavior, and I understand it. But for some reason, when people start talking about it, I shut down. Maybe it's because I believe that positive trainers need to be positive with PEOPLE too, or the point is totally lost!

This.

And this:

Originally Posted by Dogdragoness

I use whatever method the DOG responds to (most of the time I can get a dog to respond with positive ways BUT some breeds like cattle dogs who are very testy & almost NEED to know where the limit it by being told no & "ah ah!" Every now & again.

Number one thing that turns me off of trainers : "Dogs only learn ONE way. You HAVE to make them want to work FOR YOU. It doesn't matter if that goes against every more likely way the dog is going to better learn this. You're wrong. All dogs respond the EXACT SAME WAY to this EXACT SAME STIMULUS." Doesn't matter if the reaction is fear, frustration, annoyance, happy, disengagement, boredom, etc. 95% of trainers feel like ALL dogs should only react ONE way to that stimulus. And yes, +R trainers are the worst with that, but it applies all across the board, to many trainers with many different methods.

I'd rather do what works best for the dog, period. Some dogs need a choice. Easy/fun or hard/not fun. Some dogs are simply born more handler-oriented. Some dogs are far more stubborn and would rather learn things on their own. Other dogs like guidance in order to find their confidence. Some dogs are puzzle solvers. Some dogs couldn't give a hoot about their handler, because the entire breed was specifically bred to NOT be handler-oriented and to think independently. Other dogs were born to live and die by their handler's word. Some dogs like fast learning. Some dogs like slow learning. Some work best with lures. Some work best with shaping. Others learn best by the example of other dogs in the household.

If something is frustrating the dog or impeding progress, sure, offer a different view on how to do things because dogs CAN be individual in their training needs. But all the bashing, insinuating, and throat-cramming "education" isn't really needed. Makes things a lot less fun for the handler and the dog. And you are probably turning off far more people than you are convincing.

So everyone, from both sides, just need to calm the heck down, go walk their dog, take a chill pill, and have a happy Thanksgiving. And if they don't, then stop shoving your nose in drama and you wouldn't have that problem.

[OwnedByBCs]

Originally Posted by Dogdragoness

Like 100%

I use whatever method the DOG responds to (most of the time I can get a dog to respond with positive ways BUT some breeds like cattle dogs who are very testy & almost NEED to know where the limit it by being told no & "ah ah!" Every now & again.

"Positive punishment" at the right time isn't always a bad thing

See, you missed the point of my post.

I just hate the term positive trainer so I don't call myself that, but I am pretty much that. All my dogs are clicker trained, and when I do "correct" my dogs, it is with my voice or with body blocking. I guess to some that means I'm "balanced" or whatever, but to me, I hate correcting my dogs- because for the most part I feel like I probably could be doing something else but don't have the patience or am too lazy. Eh, at least I admit that. LOL!

My point was that in general, hardcore trainers, no matter what methods they use, are crazy.

And of course I like training discussions with you guys, because if it gets to be past my limits I can always leave. Sometimes, when you're stuck with someone who is being crazy at you in person, its really hard to walk away.

[OwnedByBCs]

For the record, I'm not advocating any method or any trainer. I'm advocating STFU and keep it to yourself, whatever it is.