Beyond CM

Discussion in 'Dogs - General Dog Chat' started by Danefied, Nov 22, 2012.

  1. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    I tried to explain exactly this.
    The difference between: “OMG don’t you know prong collars hurt the dog?! How can you call yourself a dog lover if you HURT your dog?!â€

    Versus: “Hey, have you tried a front clip harness? They work really well on hardcore pullers and there are programs where rescues can get a ton of them for free, like through the No Choke Challenge.†And then post a link.

    IDK... seems like a no brainer to me, but what do I know :confused:
     
  2. Greenmagick

    Greenmagick New Member

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    Not to turn this into a debate, but I do have issues with the idea of "as long as it works its all good". WHY it works is very important.
     
  3. Dogdragoness

    Dogdragoness Happy Spring!!!!

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    I use what works & doesn't do mental or emotional damage to the dog, example a correction that works on Josefina would make buddy shut down :)
     
  4. OwnedByBCs

    OwnedByBCs Will Creep For Sheep

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    I agree, but for example, I was teaching a dumbbell retrieve during down time at a dog show, by shaping it with the clicker. This lady came up and was like "you're not breaking that down small enough, you have to click for the tiniest head movements. This behavior takes days to teach the right way, and you're already adding duration to it (having her hold the dumbbell for a few seconds until I clicked and took the dumbbell away). You're going to ruin your dog!"

    The thing is, Sadie is not most dogs. She was born shaping- and she picks up new behaviors as quick as lightning. Not to mention I was successful in training that behavior, even if I went faster or asked more of my dog than some would think is appropriate, it worked for my dog because that's how we do things. That's what I mean when I say that some PR trainers are freakazoids. I mean, I was clicker training a behavior, my dog was successful, and we were having fun, and *that* needs to be critiqued? Really? Not cool.
     
  5. Fran101

    Fran101 Resident fainting goat

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    I joined that group for a bit and left just as quickly.. whoever said "pack of wild dogs" had it right.
    It's a giant witch hunt.

    I don't understand how the philosophy of being kind and positive while teaching dogs does not equate to the same atitude when teaching human beings.
     
  6. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    It matters very much to me too :)
    I can explain to others why it matters to me, I can explain my reasoning, but there comes a point where you have to accept that not everyone cares about the same things. (I know you know that Nicole, just talking in general terms.)
     
  7. Danefied

    Danefied New Member

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    Oh and forgot to add - to be fair, there is another FB group (that of course the Beyond crowd trolls) that is just as bad as them only from the other side. Same thing, post a video, say how stupid it is to train that way, and go off on the trainer’s looks and weight. Post an article, go off on how stupid the author is. Recruit troops to go flood said article with comments. Ditto the pics and videos. *sigh*

    Time to go hug the dogs :)
     
  8. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I don't go on any other forums or groups....only Chaz. But I do understand that. I lose patience with humans way quicker than I do with dogs. Humans are exasperating. They do understand more from each other. They do have more cognitive sophistication than dogs do. So, when humans won't even examine or listen at all to anything, it's like....:wall: When humans are being stubborn and rebellious they're being just that. When dogs appear to be those things, they aren't because they can't be expected to run off the same engine that humans run off of as....different values altogether, amoral etc.

    So, I do understand how the philosophy of teaching dogs in a PR way doesn't transfer perfectly onto human-human teaching. It's not quite parallel when you're dealing with two different species and especially when one of them is a primate! Very different. It should definitely be something we strive for and from a behavioral standpoint, we do all operate conceptually the same way. It's more effective to utilize PR with humans. But our interactions and how we relate to one another is significantly varied between dogs and humans. Just my .02 worth. ;)
     
  9. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I have remarked on that very thing many times in the past. I hate it when people keep chanting "whatever works...." Or, "It works." That's not all she wrote. I am not impressed with something someone teaches a dog when the only thing that matters to them is if it worked. What did the dog have to go through to get it working? What did it do to the relationship between the human and dog? What kind of long term wear and tear might this be doing? There is so much more than....It's working so it must automatically be good.
     
  10. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    FWIW, For some people (myself included), "whatever works" doesn't mean we don't care why, and/or that we don't understand why, but rather that we have absolutely zero interest in a discussion on the topic at that moment and are attempting to politely deflect and dismiss the person so we can get back to work ;)

    I'm sure there are people who truly don't care, but I'm hardly unique in my use of the phrase.
     
  11. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    I hear ya. But what I'm remembering...what sparked my comment was a lot of people who use harsh aversives or corrections, including CM followers saying things like, "Well, my way is fine because it works." That's what I'm talking about. I say, "It works" too. But I'm talking about things like setting the dog up for success, preventing unwanted behavior in the first place, distraction, emphasis on the correct responses, shaping approximations, etc....it works in other words and you don't have to be harsh or wait around until the dog makes a mistake, then "correct" him, as so many people do to a significant degree.
     
  12. Sweet72947

    Sweet72947 Squishy face

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    I had joined the group back when it was called "Caesar Millan is a Hack". They changed their name to "Beyond Caesar Millan" because they felt their former name was putting people on the defensive before they even had a chance to read any training information on the page. They should have applied that logic to the wall posts too. I haven't read anything on their page for a long time.

    As for prongs, I would use one on a BIG (like mastiff or big AB or even a very strong APBT) dog who was STRONG on the leash first and foremost so I would have control over the dog during the training process. I wouldn't use the prong to actually correct the dog, just so I could hang on to him while leash training with the goal of eventually moving to a martinagle-type collar or flat collar and leash. Mastiffs and bulldog types are pretty hardy, and no-pull harnesses don't always work well on them (I know this from experience at FOHA), and if the dog happens to be hairy, like a Saint or a Newfie or something, all that coat actually protects the neck pretty good. I know some like the "be a tree" and the turn around when there is pressure on the leash methods (I like those too), but "be a tree" doesn't work well when you have a dog who can pull you off your feet with ease. As for turning around, put your leash and collar on a tree, then try to turn around. That's what its like with big, really strong dogs. :p
     
  13. Dogdragoness

    Dogdragoness Happy Spring!!!!

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    I see which group u are talking about now ... Man those folks are crazy!
     
  14. ThoseWordsAtBest

    ThoseWordsAtBest Wu-Tang Steph

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    Through Beyond CM I found Positive Dog Trainers. Much nicer corner of the internet. Good advice without trolling or shaming (that I have seen, anyway)
     
  15. Flyinsbt

    Flyinsbt New Member

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    I've used a prong. It didn't really work on the dog I was using it on, because she'd pull on it hard enough to choke herself, but I don't feel bad about using it

    The thing is, no piece of equipment is really perfect. I've used front clip harnesses, too. Tess (the dog I used the prong on) could houdini her way out of a front clip. The front clip was really effective on my Tully, but it worked largely by inhibiting her front end movement, and when you're walking for distances (exercising the dog), I don't think having the dog's free movement compromised is in the dog's best interests.

    I dislike the head halters because of the risk to a dog's neck. I did purchase one version called a "Canny Collar", which has a loop over the snout, but attaches behind the head, and should be safer. However, Tess can houdini out of that, too.

    In terms of safety, I think the prong is actually safer than the other management options. The best way to deal with pulling is to actually train the dog, but that can be easier said than done. I'm not going to criticize someone who finds a way to manage their dog that works for them, and the dog is happy and healthy.
     
  16. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    I've been a member of Beyond CM since the beginning... I used to be active, but I don't check the group often any more. There are extremists and weirdos (one woman in particular is beyond nutty, and constantly makes stupid posts, omfg). But there are weirdos in every bunch!!! Especially on the internets, where you tend to lose your filter.

    I don't think all PR trainers are great, there's a lot of "purely positive" trainers who think it should be a crime to tell your dog no. And I find people like that way too pretentious and unrealistic to even have a conversation with. But most of them are good people, and I've learned a lot in that group, as well as had the opportunity to chat it up with Jean Donaldson and Pat Miller! Where else do you get that chance?

    I love you for this! :D Yes. Yes. Yes.

    I get so tired of people calling PR trainers hypocritical because we aren't all rainbows & sunshine ALL the time when dealing with others. Dogs are innocent animals, who just want to make us happy, who we have selectively bred for thousands of years to serve us. Learning theory applies to all animals... if some one is eager to learn and open minded, I'm super kind and forgiving about giving them advice/instruction. If some one attacks me and calls me weak/stupid and that I have unreliable dogs because I don't strike fear into them, it's really hard to be cheerful. And when you feel that dogs are being abused by their owner or trainer, and you love dogs and dedicate your life to training them humanely, it's hard to not get worked up! No one is perfect. I try, but I admit that I treat rude dogs much kinder than rude people. Because dogs don't know better, people do.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  17. elegy

    elegy overdogged

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    BUT NO DOG CAN BE HAPPY IN A PRONG!!!

    Sigh.

    That was the point I tried to articulate in the group- that it is *hard* to manage a strong, energetic dog prone to going 0-60 in .5 seconds or less when your'e a)not a dog trainer, b) has limited ability to control the environment while training, and especially if c) you don't have any other exercise outlets for that dog. If a prong collar makes it possible for the person to take the dog out and get him the exercise and mental stimulation he needs while being able to comfortably keep him under control, and the dog is not traumatized by the collar, then who are you, Morally Superior Internet Armchair Trainer, to judge?

    Of course, they didn't hear a word I said. Par for the course.
     
  18. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    People need to move beyond Caesar. Way too many people focus way too much time and energy on Cesar Milan. Theyd be better trainers and better people if they could focus on something else.
     
  19. Dogdragoness

    Dogdragoness Happy Spring!!!!

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    The empire hey focus on him th more ppl will too, IMHO
     
  20. ihartgonzo

    ihartgonzo and Fozzie B!

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    Why NOT focus on a training empire that has set the industry back 20-30 years, though? I would love to see more reaction, to the point of completely dispelling all of the mistruths and myths his "way" has spread. I personally know dogs who have died directly because of his books and television show... that's hard to turn the other cheek to.

    I'm super happy that word has really spread about his bullshit, and he's being banned and protested around the world. :) Of course, the focus should be education, not mud slinging.
     

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