You be the Judge.......
- Thread starter Amstaffer
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I'd like to know more about the uncle. WAS he masked? Did he have any sort of weapon (bat, large stick etc.) Were the children actually scared or playing along? If it had been a real robbery nobody would be mad about it. I would want him PTS if the Uncle had just jumped in in regular clothing and with no weapons, how is the dog supposed to know it's not a real dangerous intruder coming to hurt his family? had the dog ever met the uncle?
EXACTLY!!!!! I do not believe the dog should be put down I believe he was justified in his action and I strongly believe that with a proper trainer, work could be done to manage his quick trigger.
When I was at rehearsal one day for the medieval festival, I was sitting on the grass with my two boys laying down beside me. An aquaintance of mine came up and threw his arms around me shouting a very enthusiastic "Hi Ren!" My dogs didn't do more than stand up and face him but I went off on him telling him he is very stupid for surprising a person who has her dogs with her especially if he is "attacking" (throwing his arms around me) her at the same time. After all, dogs are animals, they have their own minds. We can train them all we want but as much as we shape and teach their behaviour including how to react to certain stimuli, it only takes one time for them to decide to react in a different manner and things go very very wrong. The most placid dog could have read his behaviour as a threat (especially being he scared me - the owner) and reacted. His reply? "Oh...ya...I guess that was pretty stupid of me wasn't it?"
When I was at rehearsal one day for the medieval festival, I was sitting on the grass with my two boys laying down beside me. An aquaintance of mine came up and threw his arms around me shouting a very enthusiastic "Hi Ren!" My dogs didn't do more than stand up and face him but I went off on him telling him he is very stupid for surprising a person who has her dogs with her especially if he is "attacking" (throwing his arms around me) her at the same time. After all, dogs are animals, they have their own minds. We can train them all we want but as much as we shape and teach their behaviour including how to react to certain stimuli, it only takes one time for them to decide to react in a different manner and things go very very wrong. The most placid dog could have read his behaviour as a threat (especially being he scared me - the owner) and reacted. His reply? "Oh...ya...I guess that was pretty stupid of me wasn't it?"
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...if a strange person rushed into my backyard with a stick, causing panic, this is when I would want a protective dog to act. The dog may have just got unlucky in this case. 
I know everyone has sympathy for the dog, especially since the dog likely had no chance from the start. But my reading of this event (given the facts available here) suggests that this dog overreated in the extreme. Only when we put the uncle in a mask and brandishing a stick can we begin to justify the actions (barely even then) but there's nothing to suggest that this was even close to the case.
The dog is dangerous. Not its fault, but that's not the issue.
If the dog didn't kow the uncle well it wouldn't matter whether or not he was wearing a mask. And to a dog who has never had any personal experience with weapons, they have no idea that a stick or a gun is any different than a trophy or a remote control. The fact that this intruder came in and scared the kids (which the dog would have deemed as part of the pack whether or not they live with him simply because they are all in the same yard together and enjoying a good time) to the point of screaming and being terrified is enough justice in the dog's mind that this attacker (even though the uncle had no intentions of attacking) needed to be stopped immediately before any of the pack members got hurt.
Here's a question, were there any other adults present besides the uncle? For those who told about their dogs just backing the intruder into a corner or against the wall and holding them, could it be because your dog was too afraid to actually engage? Your dog would have known that you were in the house so you are the pack leader and call the shots so perhaps the dogs were just warning said intruder and keeping him in place until you got there to say whether or not engaging was necessary, or just giving a threat and letting him be are enough. The dog likely did not view the kids as being mature enough to call the shots therefore he took it upon himself to protect the kids.
There's a lot more to this than simply "the dog viciously attacked an uncle"
Here's a question, were there any other adults present besides the uncle? For those who told about their dogs just backing the intruder into a corner or against the wall and holding them, could it be because your dog was too afraid to actually engage? Your dog would have known that you were in the house so you are the pack leader and call the shots so perhaps the dogs were just warning said intruder and keeping him in place until you got there to say whether or not engaging was necessary, or just giving a threat and letting him be are enough. The dog likely did not view the kids as being mature enough to call the shots therefore he took it upon himself to protect the kids.
There's a lot more to this than simply "the dog viciously attacked an uncle"
"Stick" miss- read.
I still think my point stands though. Now not only must the dog know when there is a threat, but also know how to do the absolute minimum damage mitigating the threat? Are we asking too much?
We've probably all heard stories of the family dog growling when a couple gets in a fight, and makes them back down. Those dogs clearly know both people, but feel that they must control the fight. My dogs have only met my extended family a few times, they're not going to treat them as "family" when they come into the house or yard unannounced. (mine will just make a lot of noise though!)
Besides, how many times recently have family members killed the rest of the family? I can think of three quickly. If the uncle presented himself as a threat (mask, prop weapons or inciting panic) vs joking around, "I" would want the dog to react that way, and quite frankly, continue until the threat was subdued or called off.
Where were the owners to attempt to call the dog off? If it was a dog, a "threat" and some kids, it may have thought that was the only way to control the situation. A terrible situation to put the dog in, but I can't see how the dogs reaction could be faulted.
I still think my point stands though. Now not only must the dog know when there is a threat, but also know how to do the absolute minimum damage mitigating the threat? Are we asking too much?
We've probably all heard stories of the family dog growling when a couple gets in a fight, and makes them back down. Those dogs clearly know both people, but feel that they must control the fight. My dogs have only met my extended family a few times, they're not going to treat them as "family" when they come into the house or yard unannounced. (mine will just make a lot of noise though!)
Besides, how many times recently have family members killed the rest of the family? I can think of three quickly. If the uncle presented himself as a threat (mask, prop weapons or inciting panic) vs joking around, "I" would want the dog to react that way, and quite frankly, continue until the threat was subdued or called off.
Where were the owners to attempt to call the dog off? If it was a dog, a "threat" and some kids, it may have thought that was the only way to control the situation. A terrible situation to put the dog in, but I can't see how the dogs reaction could be faulted.
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Nobody said he had a stick.....they were just saying WHAT if it had been a strange person with a stick and using that as an example...
That's all irrelevant, just like the stick.
My point is that people are launching a defense of the animal based upon hypotheticals that aren't relevant.
"What if he had a stick and was wearing a mask?"
He wasn't. Why bring it up? Defend the dog on available facts rather than suggesting a bunch of what-if's that didn't occur. A dumb uncle busted through the gate a shouted something, and the kids sreamed. He might as well have yelled, "Hey kids! The ponies are here!"
We all love dogs. But objecting to a dangerous animal being put down is what fuels nonsense like wholesale breed banning.
Thats NOT the point...
The point is, is that if this would have been a real attack, people would be up in arms screaming that NO this dog shouldnt be PTS....where do we draw the line.....Hmmmmm.....would anyone care to tell me...
We dont know all the details and we can sit here and say, should of, could of, would of all day long, but its not going to change anything....
The point is, is that if this would have been a real attack, people would be up in arms screaming that NO this dog shouldnt be PTS....where do we draw the line.....Hmmmmm.....would anyone care to tell me...
We dont know all the details and we can sit here and say, should of, could of, would of all day long, but its not going to change anything....
Not really. We're laying out two possible situations, pending more facts.
1. The uncle was clearly not a threat. Perhaps he had known the dog its entire life, etc.
Or.
2. He acted in a menacing manner. There are plenty of ways, that we have come up with, that even the most sensible, controlled dog would have taken great offense at what was done.
If he acted like a threat, I feel the bite was justified (though, it should have come off quicker) if he was not acting like a threat, it was not justified and either needs big time socialization with a behaviorist or to be put down. We're trying to say that not all bites are the same, and even family can be, or act like a threat.
(pending more details!)
1. The uncle was clearly not a threat. Perhaps he had known the dog its entire life, etc.
Or.
2. He acted in a menacing manner. There are plenty of ways, that we have come up with, that even the most sensible, controlled dog would have taken great offense at what was done.
If he acted like a threat, I feel the bite was justified (though, it should have come off quicker) if he was not acting like a threat, it was not justified and either needs big time socialization with a behaviorist or to be put down. We're trying to say that not all bites are the same, and even family can be, or act like a threat.
(pending more details!)
A few things...
Where were the parents in all this? why weren't they outside supervising the dog with the kids. A yard full of kids with a dog that has a spotty background is a great way to earn yourself an unplanned trip to the emerg for stitches if left unsupervised.
I think the owners are at fault in the sence that they didn't seem to have much of a grasp of what was going on in there own home.
I think the uncle is at fault in that he came up with a prank designed to scare the heck out of these kids so he(and maybe others) could have a laugh. Well guess what you forgot about the big dog that also lives there so your rather thoughtless act got your arm broken.
Back to the owners, they should have known what type of dog they were getting and gotten it into some basic obedience and what not for the socialization and to have it's termperment evaluated... so once again I think it's the owners fault.
The breeder... an interesting one as she's now reformed her ways and seen the light. She gave the puppies away as a means to home them and had her bitch fixed instead of trying to pump out more pit mixes to fill shelters with. The initial problem started with her but she has since corrected her ways so it won't happen again. I would say she is slightly responsible as the dog came from her kennel... however I'd be a bit more lenient as she's changed her ways.
The dog... the dog was doing what it though was right... and having never been taught anything else it did what came naturally when a member of it's family structure was threatened. However since these people likely got the dog free when the breeder gave them away I would suppose it makes sence that the dog wasn't brought for any sort of eval. or training. I wouldn't blame the dog...
After all this though what it comes down to is should this dog be pts. Yes and no. You can't blame the dog for being a product of it's parents... or for a lack of knowledge on the part of it's owners. On the flip side of this coin though... there are hundreds of dogs in shelters who also need homes who would react by growling or even biting but to a less severe degree.
In the end I would say that this dog should not be put down (especially that if this had been a real burglar the dog would be paraded around as a hero who foiled what could have been a deadly robbery at a kids b-day party). However it should certainly be re-homed to somebody who would be able to appropriately handle the dog and not continue to live with this family.
Where were the parents in all this? why weren't they outside supervising the dog with the kids. A yard full of kids with a dog that has a spotty background is a great way to earn yourself an unplanned trip to the emerg for stitches if left unsupervised.
I think the owners are at fault in the sence that they didn't seem to have much of a grasp of what was going on in there own home.
I think the uncle is at fault in that he came up with a prank designed to scare the heck out of these kids so he(and maybe others) could have a laugh. Well guess what you forgot about the big dog that also lives there so your rather thoughtless act got your arm broken.
Back to the owners, they should have known what type of dog they were getting and gotten it into some basic obedience and what not for the socialization and to have it's termperment evaluated... so once again I think it's the owners fault.
The breeder... an interesting one as she's now reformed her ways and seen the light. She gave the puppies away as a means to home them and had her bitch fixed instead of trying to pump out more pit mixes to fill shelters with. The initial problem started with her but she has since corrected her ways so it won't happen again. I would say she is slightly responsible as the dog came from her kennel... however I'd be a bit more lenient as she's changed her ways.
The dog... the dog was doing what it though was right... and having never been taught anything else it did what came naturally when a member of it's family structure was threatened. However since these people likely got the dog free when the breeder gave them away I would suppose it makes sence that the dog wasn't brought for any sort of eval. or training. I wouldn't blame the dog...
After all this though what it comes down to is should this dog be pts. Yes and no. You can't blame the dog for being a product of it's parents... or for a lack of knowledge on the part of it's owners. On the flip side of this coin though... there are hundreds of dogs in shelters who also need homes who would react by growling or even biting but to a less severe degree.
In the end I would say that this dog should not be put down (especially that if this had been a real burglar the dog would be paraded around as a hero who foiled what could have been a deadly robbery at a kids b-day party). However it should certainly be re-homed to somebody who would be able to appropriately handle the dog and not continue to live with this family.
It was stated that the kids were scared. It was stated that the uncle was faking a burglary. Why would the kids be in fear if they saw their uncle? They didnt seem to be able to identify him. Would you want one of the kids put down if the child hit the guy with a ball bat? If I had kids and an adult was scaring them, I would want the dog to do what was needed to stop it. I would also let anyone know, dont mess with the kids if the dog is around.
This is obviously an example of bad breeding. The Uncle was being a goof but hey that's life. People do practical jokes all the time and as always, nobody saw Romping Fido as a threat. But yes, the dog has to be euthanized. It may be indirectly the fault of the breeder or even the owners, but the fact is the dog mauled someone, even if the someone was a jerk who was playing a bad joke. If he was the "uncle" of somebody there I am sure they knew him. But in the end, the dog did the deed and has shown he is capable of doing it again. If it had been a real robbery, the dog would still be with us, so I guess he is "guilty" of poor discernment. I'm just curious though...did the Uncle have a gun or knife or something or did he just yell at them that is was a stickup?
Any idiot should know better than to pull a cruel stunt like scaring a bunch of kids like that - with or without a dog present.
Seems like there's more questionable breeding there than the dog's. The pup was doing what I would expect any dog of mine to do, especially if I had a yard full of kids there.
Yeah, something should be euthanized - but it isn't necessarily the puppy.
Seems like there's more questionable breeding there than the dog's. The pup was doing what I would expect any dog of mine to do, especially if I had a yard full of kids there.
Yeah, something should be euthanized - but it isn't necessarily the puppy.