would you own a dog-aggressive dog?

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You know what it all boils down to for me? If people wouldn't be lax with their dogs, if they'd obey leash laws and respect others' space, this wouldn't even be an issue. Nobody would have to worry about shredded throats and torn ears. It would be a moot point. I sometimes wonder if the "my dog isn't aggressive" argument is just an excuse for some people to be lazy and inconsiderate with their animals.
 

showdawgz

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You know what it all boils down to for me? If people wouldn't be lax with their dogs, if they'd obey leash laws and respect others' space, this wouldn't even be an issue. Nobody would have to worry about shredded throats and torn ears. It would be a moot point. I sometimes wonder if the "my dog isn't aggressive" argument is just an excuse for some people to be lazy and inconsiderate with their animals.
I agree! I much rather people take precautions with their dog (DA or not) instead of assuming their dog will get along with all other dogs and let them approach. All my dogs are reactive to a point some more than others. But dogs are ANIMALS, not robots. Just because a dog does not like other dogs in their face does not mean they are vicious. Does not make them a danger to society. ALL dogs have the potential to show agression whether it be towards other dogs, strange people, or a leaf in your backyard. Agression is a part of EVERY species. You learn to deal with it and manage it, once you stop living in denial.
 

pitbullpony

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Holy crap on a stick

this was getting ridiculous.

I - t i-s a f-r-e-a-k-i-n dog. I don't really care if it hates Bert and Ernie and you live on the set of Sesame Street (although that'd be a pretty f-in weird choice of residence).
It wears a collar, a leash and doesn't get to move unless I-me-goddess of all I survey and own and feed and water get to say where and when anyone gets to do stuff (except the stupid cat; he just gets yelled at a lot)

Your dog spits fire and his eyeballs pop out when he spots other dogs; don't bring him near other dogs, don't to the best of your abilities allow other dogs near him - if that means you walk with mace/baseball bat/cane, etc. then do so; he comes out on a leash and I make sure I can control him and I don't eff around either; "testing" him with someone else's animal.

Smkie; you'd love Leerburg; check out his "dominant" dog collar - you CHOKE the dog until it passes out and then the dog slowly learns (apparently while unconscious) that you OWN his ass and he better not spit fire and let his eyeballs pop out when other dogs are around; or strangely he seems to lose track of time!

I'll give you my background; I don't have 20 years of training dogs; just about 30 years of living with them; oh about the same amount of time with horses.

MANAGEMENT is the key. Horses can be every bit as retarded as dogs; in their relationships with other horses. I easily handle my 1000 lb. horse with issues; with a halter and a lead shank; I don't even get to use a prong on my horse; and he behaves just fine. Same thing for my dog.

I do agree with Smkie on one thing; many, many pet owners out there shouldn't own a DA dog; but also many, many shouldn't own a dog with more drive than a CKCS.

To answer the questions;

Would you be willing to own a dog-aggressive dog?
Be honored to; one of my best pitbull friends is very da; and has almost eaten a cat (got his tail under the door); you will not find a more loveable dog to humans. One of the sweetest dogs I know is a 13 year old ever-ready JRT; who has this past 2 weeks decided he is going to pick serious fights with his long time only-friend Malinois buddy; this JRT loves me and my kids. I love the fire.

Would you adopt a dog already known to be dog-aggressive?

Not at the present time; Kim is not DA; but can be dog dominant when she has had enough; I don't think I could handle separating her from something she decided to kill (or depending on the size; decided to kill her).

What would you do if your own formerly unaggressive dog became dog-aggressive?

Apart from determining that it was most likely maturity in a potentially DA breed; I'd go for health testing; just to make sure that there was no ill-health (thyroid/seizure/brain tumour/cancer) going on; and then MANAGEMENT. NOT THE END OF THE WORLD.

What would you do if your dog attacked another dog while your dog was off-leash in a public place?
Pay for damages, pay for remedial measures for the other dog's mental trauma; stay the hell away from any off-leash - dog situation ever again.

Could Kim become DA - I don't know; her breeder thinks she is a bit strange that she still likes other strange dogs; but I figure she still hasn't attained her full temperament; there may be a time that she can't be intro'd to strange dogs to play; but that was never a big deal for me; it's kinda nice that right now she enjoys it; otherwise I simply wouldn't let it happen. I am 100% certain that Kim would kill the neighbour's cat; she has attempted to "catch" it at the top of my 6 foot privacy fence, she was tethered out front and just about ripped my porch railing off (thank god she was on a bungee) trying to get him and goes nutso when they are on our property outside her fence line.
HOWEVER her own cat is to be loved; and in every situation she has attempted to "get" the neighbour's cat; it has been interacting with ours. I was aware of this "guardian" temperament when I got her; it is the breed standard and when there is a situation that she could cause a problem i.e. neighbour's cat could be on my property; she is leashed/contained. IT IS NOT DIFFICULT.

You have to read/know your dog; she loves to play with small dogs - very gentle with them; she will chase w/o intention to harm the barn cats (at the barn I board at), but it is a whole other story at HER house. Unfortunately I have to be careful that she doesn't acquire territory; she marks when she pees; so we "own" a lot of property according to her.
 
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My friend's Lab mix "Kirk" (not sure what the other breed mix is, he's solid black with white toes and has ears that look like slightly larger than normal Lab ears) was attacked while walking with my friend's daughter, who was home from college recently, and now he wants to attack any strange dog equal to or bigger than he is. When he saw King recently, he froze at first, King looks almost identical (but smaller) to the 75 pound Border Collie mix that attacked him, but once he got King's scent, he was fine. When a guy walked by with a yellow Lab, he went ballistic, even trying to climb over the fence to get at him. He was so worked up, he snapped at King just because King was there, and foamed at the mouth like he had a can of shaving cream in his mouth..

My friend and his wife are working with a local trainer, but so far, Kirk isn't getting any better. They muzzle him on walks and vet trips now. He loves to go for rides in the car, but he literally bounces off the windows when he sees a dog go by, unless it's very small..and I though my old Pit mix Gus was the master at that. He wasn't DA in the slightest, he just went nuts when he saw other dogs, and if he saw horses, he was totally freaked out by those "giant dogs".
 
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You know what it all boils down to for me? If people wouldn't be lax with their dogs, if they'd obey leash laws and respect others' space, this wouldn't even be an issue. Nobody would have to worry about shredded throats and torn ears. It would be a moot point. I sometimes wonder if the "my dog isn't aggressive" argument is just an excuse for some people to be lazy and inconsiderate with their animals.
I think we've got a common sense winner here. She will be showing as a Rare Breed ;)

It wears a collar, a leash and doesn't get to move unless I-me-goddess of all I survey and own and feed and water get to say where and when anyone gets to do stuff (except the stupid cat; he just gets yelled at a lot)

Your dog spits fire and his eyeballs pop out when he spots other dogs; don't bring him near other dogs, don't to the best of your abilities allow other dogs near him - if that means you walk with mace/baseball bat/cane, etc. then do so; he comes out on a leash and I make sure I can control him and I don't eff around either; "testing" him with someone else's animal.
Careful, you're quickly becoming a favorite of mine, lol!

but it is a whole other story at HER house. Unfortunately I have to be careful that she doesn't acquire territory; she marks when she pees; so we "own" a lot of property according to her.
Kim and Kharma share philosophies of acquisition :rofl1: Fortunately, we haven't been assessed for taxes on all the property Kharma seems to believe we own . . .
 

Durbkat

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would you be willing to own a dog-aggressive dog?
No I wouldn't, I don't think I could manage it.

would you adopt a dog already known to be dog-aggressive?
No, I wouldn't want to be limited on the places I could take my dog, like the dog park or a place with lots of dogs.

what would you do if your own formerly unaggressive dog became dog-aggressive?
I would hire a behaviorist.

what would you do if your dog attacked another dog while your dog was off-leash in a public place?
Unless it was a dog park then my dog wouldn't be off leash. But if I had known my dog was dog aggressive he wouldn't be at a dog park. But if he unexpectedly attacked I would try and pry his mouth off or have the other person grab the other dog's back legs while I grab my dogs back legs while we both pull back.
 

adojrts

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this was getting ridiculous.

I - t i-s a f-r-e-a-k-i-n dog. I don't really care if it hates Bert and Ernie and you live on the set of Sesame Street (although that'd be a pretty f-in weird choice of residence).
It wears a collar, a leash and doesn't get to move unless I-me-goddess of all I survey and own and feed and water get to say where and when anyone gets to do stuff (except the stupid cat; he just gets yelled at a lot)

Your dog spits fire and his eyeballs pop out when he spots other dogs; don't bring him near other dogs, don't to the best of your abilities allow other dogs near him - if that means you walk with mace/baseball bat/cane, etc. then do so; he comes out on a leash and I make sure I can control him and I don't eff around either; "testing" him with someone else's animal.

Smkie; you'd love Leerburg; check out his "dominant" dog collar - you CHOKE the dog until it passes out and then the dog slowly learns (apparently while unconscious) that you OWN his ass and he better not spit fire and let his eyeballs pop out when other dogs are around; or strangely he seems to lose track of time!

I'll give you my background; I don't have 20 years of training dogs; just about 30 years of living with them; oh about the same amount of time with horses.

MANAGEMENT is the key. Horses can be every bit as retarded as dogs; in their relationships with other horses. I easily handle my 1000 lb. horse with issues; with a halter and a lead shank; I don't even get to use a prong on my horse; and he behaves just fine. Same thing for my dog.

I do agree with Smkie on one thing; many, many pet owners out there shouldn't own a DA dog; but also many, many shouldn't own a dog with more drive than a CKCS.

To answer the questions;

Would you be willing to own a dog-aggressive dog?
Be honored to; one of my best pitbull friends is very da; and has almost eaten a cat (got his tail under the door); you will not find a more loveable dog to humans. One of the sweetest dogs I know is a 13 year old ever-ready JRT; who has this past 2 weeks decided he is going to pick serious fights with his long time only-friend Malinois buddy; this JRT loves me and my kids. I love the fire.

Would you adopt a dog already known to be dog-aggressive?

Not at the present time; Kim is not DA; but can be dog dominant when she has had enough; I don't think I could handle separating her from something she decided to kill (or depending on the size; decided to kill her).

What would you do if your own formerly unaggressive dog became dog-aggressive?

Apart from determining that it was most likely maturity in a potentially DA breed; I'd go for health testing; just to make sure that there was no ill-health (thyroid/seizure/brain tumour/cancer) going on; and then MANAGEMENT. NOT THE END OF THE WORLD.

What would you do if your dog attacked another dog while your dog was off-leash in a public place?
Pay for damages, pay for remedial measures for the other dog's mental trauma; stay the hell away from any off-leash - dog situation ever again.

Could Kim become DA - I don't know; her breeder thinks she is a bit strange that she still likes other strange dogs; but I figure she still hasn't attained her full temperament; there may be a time that she can't be intro'd to strange dogs to play; but that was never a big deal for me; it's kinda nice that right now she enjoys it; otherwise I simply wouldn't let it happen. I am 100% certain that Kim would kill the neighbour's cat; she has attempted to "catch" it at the top of my 6 foot privacy fence, she was tethered out front and just about ripped my porch railing off (thank god she was on a bungee) trying to get him and goes nutso when they are on our property outside her fence line.
HOWEVER her own cat is to be loved; and in every situation she has attempted to "get" the neighbour's cat; it has been interacting with ours. I was aware of this "guardian" temperament when I got her; it is the breed standard and when there is a situation that she could cause a problem i.e. neighbour's cat could be on my property; she is leashed/contained. IT IS NOT DIFFICULT.

You have to read/know your dog; she loves to play with small dogs - very gentle with them; she will chase w/o intention to harm the barn cats (at the barn I board at), but it is a whole other story at HER house. Unfortunately I have to be careful that she doesn't acquire territory; she marks when she pees; so we "own" a lot of property according to her.
:hail::rofl1::D
 

mrose_s

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i will try one last time...a dog that is reactive aggressive which is most of the dogs i know, with proper leadership and diligent training can learn to control their gut reaction and be good canine citizens. A dog that reacts without being provoked over not territory,not food, not possession, not insult, imo has something much more wrong with it and deserves the label DA. IF all dogs that get in disagreements are labeled DA that would include most of the dogs i know in one way or another. A true DA dog is not like a reactive dog. I believe it is dangerous to society as a whole. IF that doesnt' make sense i give up.
Buster, he doesn't react over territory, not over food, not over toys, not over insult. He goes agro because the other dog is there. That said, he has these weird instances where he will meet a dog. One was a fox terrier girl at the beach that he strained to and sniffed noses with, hackles up but then went on his way, one was on saturday, he walked out of the vet past 2 dogs that he would've normally had a fit over, antoehr time was just aftre he had a fight with a loose dog and we were walking home. A dog approached him, he sat and ignored it while it sniffed him all over, another was offleash he approached 2 dogs that were approaching him, he stood very stiffly, tail up, than ran back flat out when called.
This doesn't mean he is reactive. 98% of the time he will fight anything that gets into leash distance, he doesn't wait till that distance to start showing his intentions.
That said, I know we can get to the point where he can walk past dogs without a second glance, I can see improvements already. Does that mean he will than only be DR or RA? If so, doesn't that mean the DA was trained out of him? No, the DA will still be there just like it is today, only it will be controlled.
 

~Dixie's_Mom~

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My 1st sibe, Misty was dog agressive (females only) except for our Silky, Princess (they were very close) and we were responsible about it, and it never became a problem. Once a neighbors shih tzu came into our yard (the dog was never contained in the whole time we lived in that neighborhood) and Misty attacked him (she was on her tie out). I thought she'd killed him at 1st, but he got up, and ran for his life toward home. That's really the only incident we had, otherwise she'd just try to get at females through the fence, if they came up to it. You just have to be aware of your dog, and be a responsible owner, and it shouldn't be much of a problem. She also was small animal aggressive, and killed several stray/neighbor cats. Thankfully she never went into another person's yard and did it, the cats she got had climbed our fence. We had a cat though, and she loved him. She was 100% perfect with people, the best dog with kids I've ever owned, wasn't a bit food aggressive, well behaved, calm, she was perfect. If she'd been in another home, she may have been put to sleep.
 
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would you be willing to own a dog-aggressive dog? No.

would you adopt a dog already known to be dog-aggressive? No

what would you do if your own formerly unaggressive dog became dog-aggressive?We had this happen before with a husky mix we rescued off the streets. She was perfectly fine the first 6 months we had her, and then one day snapped and killed two of our dogs.
None of my current dogs would ever become dog aggressive...These dogs live in a large pack and are around each other every day. My youngest are 3 years old.

what would you do if your dog attacked another dog while your dog was off-leash in a public place?Well, it depends on the circumstance..but I don't bring my dogs that I have doubts about to places where they are off leash.
 

CharlieDog

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I've been trying to stay out of this thread. I haven't done too well. :D

Oz, I'm not quite sure what Ozzy is. He's an odd one. He has problems with other dogs, used too, that were within a hundred feet of him if he was on a leash. Then we got attacked on the sidewalk, nothing serious, no bloodshed, but he expanded his space again, after I had gotten his reactiveness down to a smaller area. We stepped up our training, and we can now actually meet fixed males, and smaller unfixed males on a leash. We can meet any female on leash as well. The only exception to that is big black dog, any sex, and larger male huskies that are behaving in anyway normally for a husky :)p, basically, unless they play bow and roll over, he isn't happy with it.)

Oz has a few larger unfixed males that he is friends with, but it took systematic desensitization to them. I know that there are some dogs on the board that Ozzy could never ever be introduced to. He is a very rude dog with other dogs he is just meeting. We're working on that, but still, it's a difficult thing to teach a dog what is polite and what isn't in dog language. I seem to know better than him sometimes. :p

He is a chest bumping, stiff upright tail wagging, muzzle bopping in-your-face dog. Do I think he would hurt another dog? Absolutely. Do I think he would kill another dog? No, probably not. He's gotten into some scraps, but a yell has separated him. I haven't ever had to drag him forcibly off another dog.

He would definitely kill a cat, but that has nothing to do with aggression. Its prey drive. And I would definitely not think that I can train prey drive out of him. The only thing I can do with him is make sure my training is a more powerful motivator than that cat. I can only train him so that MY control over him is even stronger than his will and instinct to chase that cat.
 

smkie

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FOr the cats sake i hope everyone take the time to teach their dog that is a NO. IT is and has always been a no in my home and at the kennels and NO cat was ever harmed. We don't hurt cats here or other dogs. I have never been more sickened by any thread on this forum then i am this one. THe list just goes on, a punctured lungs whiplash, gums sewn on, possibility of cats being killed. People really really need to go back to the bare bones basics and establish control. If a dog has a circle that is a danger zone for him, you need to teach him that is not allowed by YOU. ANd then follow that out through all aspects of his life, what you will allow, and what you will not. You are the pack leader and it is up to you to establish the rules. THat is not dog agression, that is normal untrained dog behavior.
 

Dekka

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FOr the cats sake i hope everyone take the time to teach their dog that is a NO. IT is and has always been a no in my home and at the kennels and NO cat was ever harmed. We don't hurt cats here or other dogs.
So what would YOU do if you had a hunting dog (so squirrels, groundhogs, rats, raccoons, etc were ok to get) and the dog saw the cat as fair game? Not all hunting JRTs kill cats (Dekka knows the difference-I didn't teach it to her) but many will.

I have worked with many dogs and have never seen prey drive till I met working bred JRTs (and some not so working bred ones) Ppl say sighthounds are bad with small animals. They don't even come close.

So in all you wisdom and experience with working dogs... how would you do this. (remember any pain will likely amp up the dog making it want to kill the prey even more. This is why terrier fights are so scary-they escalate to pain) I honestly want to know. I love cats, and gave away Mr Wellington my 3 legged cat because I could see the way Snip was starting to eye him at about a year.
 

smkie

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I have hunting dogs, i trained hunting dogs i trained a hunting dog this morning. WE did off leash, stay and come to heel at least 5 times around teh block AND there were plenty of squirrels cats and cars and people. When we got home and i released them into their yard I backed little miss pepper up when she started barking at a squirrel and on the third time i said sit she sat and looked at me...not at the squirrel that is 3 feet in front of her in a small bush where she has it cornered. THis is a real milestone for her. YOU TEACH your dog what you will allow. YOu go out in the yard, in the woods around your neighborhood and you say yes you may and no you wont and you enforce every single command that you give. You teach your animal to control him/herself. I have a pointer for pete's sake. ANd have taught prey driven maniacs to do exactly the same thing. IT IS UP TO YOU to do this. THe dog doesn't get it on it's own. Left unchecked ANy dog will be a barker, a roamer, will be possessive and obnoxious. I saw a man this morning holding a leash in on hand on his porch, the cell phone in the other. THe dog was barking and leaping about, a woman stepped on the porch with a dog in her arms, that dog the man had on his leash was all over her, and he never stopped barking. THat man never interupted his conversation. Never took one step to correct the bad behavior three feet away from him. I can tell you what that dog will be like in a few more months. IT was sad. I guess he is just one more person that thinks good behavior comes magically with age. It does not. I am focusing on Pepper's behaviors one by one. ANd backing that up with basic obedience. WE work this three times a day out in the world and constantly at home. I wont' have to do this forever, already 4 months have gone by and she is 75 percent a better dog. I get offers from people to take her,,now. Where were they when she was a runaway door dodging barker? That jumped all over people and swallowed them with her tongue. WE practice meet and greet with every human willing to be helpful. WE go everywhere. SHe does not try to get around me anymore. SHe looks at me to see when i say that more then magic word that allows her to run like crazy. SHse knows COMe doens't neccessarily mean lock up..it might mean TAG a pat and that magic word..that has become her all time favorite game. YEs i could ignore the barking, let her tree things and say ..that is what a dog does. IT is their prey drive, i can't do a thing about it. But would i be doing her any good if i did that? INstead i get UP and March myself OVER every TIME and get it done. Every single time. AND that doesnt' mean it is going to be like that forever. WE watch squirrels, we did that today. I said oh i see the squirrely too. SIt. THey sat, WE watched. I said chuck chuck chuck to the squirrel to see if i coudl get it to talk back. SOmetimes i can. WE watched together. THen i said come. I don't have to say leave it anymore to break their focus. THEy know because i taught them. Mary just laffs and wags her old tail with a big smile on her face because SHE knows what i am doing. SHe waits patiently. SHe sees the squirrels too but has no need to chase them up a tree.

HUnting dogs that really hunt learn that they cannot eat the bird, rabbit or the squirrel. THey learn to point and hold the point. Freezing is an instinct. VIctor does that all the time, so does Pepper, to freeze until the animal forgets your there and comes closer IS instinct. TO learn to wait until your master comes up, kills it, and then has the dog pick it up blood and all and deliver to hand is NOT instinct. THat is taught behavior and i believe that ALL dogs can learn to control themselves. If pointers can do it, if VIctor can do it, then the chi around then the yapping jack russell around the corner can do it too. THe difference is that jack russells' owner in 3 years that i have seen, has never taken it out of the yard once nor put his head out the door to tell his dog to shut up. IF you tolerate it, they will do it.
 
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Dekka

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with all due respect Pointers don't have even a fraction of the prey drive JRTs do. I have worked with and owned a Pointer before (lovely dogs)

Yes I have great recalls. But it takes Snip all of 3-5 seconds to kill a cat. If it darts out, I don't really have time to yell, let alone him to respond. You might be interested to know that there is a state that animals in intense prey mode get into where they PHYSICALLY don't hear outside stimuli (lots of science behind this) I can recall before this, but not after.

Do you assume I don't train my dogs. I have HITS on JRTs in obed.
 

HoundedByHounds

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yes pointers and Labs are not the same hunting dog as a dog bred to take on the game itself...just not even in the same room. Terriers and game hunting dogs are bred to think independant of the hunter and not wait for instruction...how much more opposite could you get than a Pointer or Lab? apples and oranges.
 

smkie

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Beg to differ. I totally and completel disagree that a jack russell has more prey drive then a pointer or a pharoh hound, or a field lab or any well bred hunting dog. How many field trials have you attended? I also think a jack russsell is smart enough to learn how to behave if taught. I have seen hounds that were top notch in behavior too. IT is taking twice as long to teach Pepper what she needs to know but it isn't impossible. It is the number one reason i am not fond of terriers but they are not undoable. Just a pain in my behind to get through the process. A brittney will run itself to death if it isn't taught recall. THey don't often even acknowledge injury they are so set on going. We trained those too. All dogs are capable. Just some are harder then others to get the message through.
 

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it takes Snip all of 3-5 seconds to kill a cat.
Wow...you act so cool about this. I can't believe anyone is sick enough to let their dog kill cats. If your dog does this it should be leashed or muzzled at all times. Sickening.

As for dog aggressive dogs, why the heck does it have to be so complicated? 16 pages? if your dog is aggressive MUZZLE IT and KEEP IT AWAY FROM OTHER LIVING CREATURES. If you can't do that then maybe you should not own a dangerous animal.

I love how people will place the blame on others and make up any excuse not to call their dog 'aggressive'. If your dog has attacked another dog, it is aggressive. End of.
 
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YOU TEACH your dog what you will allow. YOu go out in the yard, in the woods around your neighborhood and you say yes you may and no you wont and you enforce every single command that you give. You teach your animal to control him/herself.
Nature vs. Nurture. I believe all dog have their natural instincts, and I believe that, through training, those instincts can be managed, controlled, but never completely eliminated. You'll never completely "train" the prey drive out of a JRT, you'll never "train" the herding drive out of a border collie, you'll never "train" the drive to chase and run out of a sighthound. You can manage those drives, you can control those drives, but they can never be completely eliminated.

The fact that you're comparing TERRIERS (and not just terriers, but JRTs, for pete's sake) to hunting dogs absolutely astounds me. Hunting dogs were bred to chase and retrieve. Terriers were bred to chase and kill. They were bred to be ratters. My best friend's Westie knows to leave the house cat alone, but any small animal (including cats) outdoors are fair game. They didn't teach her this distinction - she made it herself.

Just my two cents, as always.
 

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