Women, pro-life and pro-choice, pay attention

[Boemy]

Nope, no welfare. All us ladies should be little virgins until we marry, then we can pop out a dozen kids while the man works to support us. Of course, how that man is going to support those dozen kids . . . well, what do you mean he's a car mechanic? Everyone shoudl be investment bankers, then they won't be poor.

As for the woman who's so busy popping out children and ruining her body she can't work, she'd better please her man . . .

Hey, folks, the nineteenth century just called, they'd like their morality back . . .

OH man, this reminds me of an article I read in a "money" magazine about saving for retirement. It said you should save $10,000 a month towards it. If only I'd known it was so SIMPLE! [/sarcasm]

Anyways, I can't believe anyone would be so stupid as to consider birth control "abortion." What next--a law saying you HAVE to get pregnant and not have periods so you don't "waste" that precious, precious egg? [/more sarcasm]

 

[Nechochwen]

And men can't get off unless it's for bearing a child. Never mind that even if a guy doesn't masturbate, he still gets wet dreams, that's a waste of sperm, each of which is technically half a person. Each time he ejaculates that's like 20 million abortions each time! And even if he does succeed in getting a woman pregnant, think of the other 40 million sperm that had to die! That's still 20 million(minus one half) abortions!

 

[Boemy]

Now let's all join in a rousing chorus of "Every Sperm Is Sacred"!

 

[puppydog]

Ha ha! They will have to pry my pills from my cold dead fingers!

 

[Paige]

I can't even stomach that article. Blarg!

 

[Squishy22]

And men can't get off unless it's for bearing a child. Never mind that even if a guy doesn't masturbate, he still gets wet dreams, that's a waste of sperm, each of which is technically half a person. Each time he ejaculates that's like 20 million abortions each time! And even if he does succeed in getting a woman pregnant, think of the other 40 million sperm that had to die! That's still 20 million(minus one half) abortions!

POOR SPERMIES!!! No really, thats what I say to my fiance. :lol-sign:

 

[Squishy22]

I am quite appalled about the graphic level abortions are depicted here. It seems almost cruel to me.

People should not always assume that a woman who chooses to have an abortion is only looking for an easy way out- or that the decision was easy. I think I said before- not everything is black and white.

I know 4 women who had abortions done. Its tore them up inside. I feel extremely sorry for them... what they go through. My best friend was a complete wreck because of it.

Brings me to one of my fave quotes...

"Abortion: One wounded. One wounded."

And...

Its true 100%

 

[2dogmom]

Either use the pill or use a vibrator.

Now.......bring on attack I'm sure I'll be hearing for that last statement.

Y'know, I'm sorry about your miscarriage, I truly am.

But did you read the link in the very first post? The Bush administration is out to criminalize the pill. That was the whole point of this thread.

 

[noludoru]

Anyways, I can't believe anyone would be so stupid as to consider birth control "abortion." What next--a law saying you HAVE to get pregnant and not have periods so you don't "waste" that precious, precious egg? [/more sarcasm]

And men can't get off unless it's for bearing a child. Never mind that even if a guy doesn't masturbate, he still gets wet dreams, that's a waste of sperm, each of which is technically half a person. Each time he ejaculates that's like 20 million abortions each time! And even if he does succeed in getting a woman pregnant, think of the other 40 million sperm that had to die! That's still 20 million(minus one half) abortions!

Now let's all join in a rousing chorus of "Every Sperm Is Sacred"!

AHAHAHA! You three made my day. Awesome. Just awesome.

 

[Pam111]

So you are telling me that when I lost my baby at 6 weeks, I shouldn't have felt sad or upset because heck, it wasn't a baby....it was just an "it." I'm sorry but screw that and screw you to tell that to someone who has indeed suffered from a miscarriage.

And although I detest abortions, I have no issues with birth control pills. I would much rather someone use the pill or shot or patch to prevent implantation than have that person go see a doctor who cuts a slit at the base of the skull and disects the infants brain and sucks it out with a vacuum and then "cleans" the uterus out. (just one method of an abortion). I'm tired of women using abortion as birth control methods. Either use the pill or use a vibrator.

Now.......bring on attack I'm sure I'll be hearing for that last statement.

I just had a m/c at 6 weeks in June and am just now experiencing another one at 4 weeks, so don't ever assume anything about me. I didn't say it was right that it is not considered a baby but if a doctor is going to tell me that I "have no right to cry because the baby is only 1 week old" than you better believe they shouldn't disallow the pill because it's killing a baby. I've read many accounts from people on pregnancy forums that doctors DO NOT consider a m/c at only 3-4 weeks to be a m/c--they simply call it a chemical pregnancy and tell you no baby ever existed.

Sparks, no that wasn't me you are referring to, but I did just go through a m/c and it might as well be me after what I went through today.

 

[Miakoda]

People should not always assume that a woman who chooses to have an abortion is only looking for an easy way out- or that the decision was easy. I think I said before- not everything is black and white.

I was specific in that I said abortions should not be used as a birth control method. I know of a few women who refuse to take the pill (they don't wanna gain weight, it makes them feel frumpy, it makes them break out, etc) and they don't like condoms so they rely on abortions to get the job done.

And I have seen what it can do to a woman. My very close friend had an abortion when we were 19. She was at college on a gymnastics scholarship when she got pregnant over the summer. Her boyfriend was a verbally abusive p.o.s. After talking things over for a few weeks, she decided to forfeit her scholarship (& everything she ever dreamed about....collegiate gymnastics, her major, etc.) so her baby could have a chance at life with adopted parents. I had already gone with her to a local adoption agency that handled semi-open adoptions (she would receive pictures, but no visits...she didn't think she would be up to it). But then her boyfriend started in saying he would never sign over his rights and he'd take "it" from her and her family and every day of "its" life he would tell "it" how much "its" mommy hated "it" and wanted to give "it" away and how mommy didn't love "it." My friend was horrified as she knew he would do just that and his parents, just as evil of people as he, were behind him. So she had an abortion. I can't even describe the emotional impact it had on her. To this day she still is haunted by all that happened. The worst part is now she is married, yet she had to have a hysterectomy at age 20, a year after the abortion, due to damage done by a crappy doctor just trying to hurry and get all his abortions done so he could get home to supper on time. So she is childless.

And Pam, I'm sorry I lost my temper with you. As typed words are very hard to read as one must infer the tone in which the poster "might" have written them, those words sometimes come across in a manner in which they were not meant. So I do apologize in some degree.

But IMO when you've got an embryo and especially a heartbeat, you've got a baby. Period.

I know that others don't agree, but that doesn't make them right and me wrong.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

MY body, MY life, MY DECISION!!

Why do men even have any say in this AT ALL anyway?

I will be casting my second Democratic vote in this presidential election.

 

[Renee750il]

I was specific in that I said abortions should not be used as a birth control method. I know of a few women who refuse to take the pill (they don't wanna gain weight, it makes them feel frumpy, it makes them break out, etc) and they don't like condoms so they rely on abortions to get the job done.

And I have seen what it can do to a woman. My very close friend had an abortion when we were 19. She was at college on a gymnastics scholarship when she got pregnant over the summer. Her boyfriend was a verbally abusive p.o.s. After talking things over for a few weeks, she decided to forfeit her scholarship (& everything she ever dreamed about....collegiate gymnastics, her major, etc.) so her baby could have a chance at life with adopted parents. I had already gone with her to a local adoption agency that handled semi-open adoptions (she would receive pictures, but no visits...she didn't think she would be up to it). But then her boyfriend started in saying he would never sign over his rights and he'd take "it" from her and her family and every day of "its" life he would tell "it" how much "its" mommy hated "it" and wanted to give "it" away and how mommy didn't love "it." My friend was horrified as she knew he would do just that and his parents, just as evil of people as he, were behind him. So she had an abortion. I can't even describe the emotional impact it had on her. To this day she still is haunted by all that happened. The worst part is now she is married, yet she had to have a hysterectomy at age 20, a year after the abortion, due to damage done by a crappy doctor just trying to hurry and get all his abortions done so he could get home to supper on time. So she is childless.

And Pam, I'm sorry I lost my temper with you. As typed words are very hard to read as one must infer the tone in which the poster "might" have written them, those words sometimes come across in a manner in which they were not meant. So I do apologize in some degree.

But IMO when you've got an embryo and especially a heartbeat, you've got a baby. Period.

I know that others don't agree, but that doesn't make them right and me wrong.

Good post, Mia . . . . and my heart goes out to your friend, but in my view of things, she made the best decision possible in that sad situation. There are worse things than having to wait for another entrance into the world. Far worse things.

MY body, MY life, MY DECISION!!

Why do men even have any say in this AT ALL anyway?

I will be casting my second Democratic vote in this presidential election.

One of the reasons I think the old males in power are so devoted to the idea of controlling women's bodies - aside from all the obvious ones - is a fear of losing power. In the successful matriarchal - or socially equitable societies of our ancestors, legal lineage was - quite logically - traced through the mother. It wasn't until women were subjugated by the males (usually priests of some ilk) that males (I won't call them men) were able to be successful in this venture.

Empirical control of women's sexual and reproductive activity is always, always the cornerstone of conquest in the male quest for power.

And then there's the psychological factor of the male being able to beat his chest and claim greatness through his sons . . . or blame the mother if the son disappoints.

 

[bubbatd]

I truly feel sorry for those who have HAD to go through an abortion . I doubt if they ever forget .

 

[Pam111]

I was specific in that I said abortions should not be used as a birth control method. I know of a few women who refuse to take the pill (they don't wanna gain weight, it makes them feel frumpy, it makes them break out, etc) and they don't like condoms so they rely on abortions to get the job done.

And I have seen what it can do to a woman. My very close friend had an abortion when we were 19. She was at college on a gymnastics scholarship when she got pregnant over the summer. Her boyfriend was a verbally abusive p.o.s. After talking things over for a few weeks, she decided to forfeit her scholarship (& everything she ever dreamed about....collegiate gymnastics, her major, etc.) so her baby could have a chance at life with adopted parents. I had already gone with her to a local adoption agency that handled semi-open adoptions (she would receive pictures, but no visits...she didn't think she would be up to it). But then her boyfriend started in saying he would never sign over his rights and he'd take "it" from her and her family and every day of "its" life he would tell "it" how much "its" mommy hated "it" and wanted to give "it" away and how mommy didn't love "it." My friend was horrified as she knew he would do just that and his parents, just as evil of people as he, were behind him. So she had an abortion. I can't even describe the emotional impact it had on her. To this day she still is haunted by all that happened. The worst part is now she is married, yet she had to have a hysterectomy at age 20, a year after the abortion, due to damage done by a crappy doctor just trying to hurry and get all his abortions done so he could get home to supper on time. So she is childless.

And Pam, I'm sorry I lost my temper with you. As typed words are very hard to read as one must infer the tone in which the poster "might" have written them, those words sometimes come across in a manner in which they were not meant. So I do apologize in some degree.

But IMO when you've got an embryo and especially a heartbeat, you've got a baby. Period.

I know that others don't agree, but that doesn't make them right and me wrong.

I was actually referring to the time before you do have an embryo or a heartbeat, because you don't have either of those for what's at issue here and you don't at 3-4 weeks pregnant. Having experienced early losses, this does not mean that I do not consider that a baby because I do. It doesn't hurt any less to have a miscarriage early as opposed to later. It's not something I would ever wish anyone to go through since it's completely devastating. I was just speaking from experience with how doctors treated me and only meaning that the pill should not be banned for killing a life when the doctors wouldn't even tell me the baby that died WAS a life

 

[sparks19]

as for why do men even have any say.....

I don't think these men in power should have any say but the father of your child perhaps should have a say. I realize it "your body your choice" but you didn't make that baby all on your own and your partners voice should not just be ignored just because you wanna do what you wanna do. Both sides should be taken into consideration.

I HATE (yes I said HATE) the thought of people using abortion just for a means of birth control but I also understand that there are times when it is the best option and there are times when it is nessecary as well.

 

[Lilavati]

I'm torn on men having a say. Yes, you didn't make the baby by yourself, but the risk, the phyiscal pain, and in many cases, the primary responsibility, fall on the woman, as does any social stigma attached with an unplanned pregnancy. I understand that many men DO feel responsible, and DO feel they should have a say, and WILL help the mother to the best of their abilties. However, there are burdens they simply can't shoulder. And there are far too many men who would simply use their "say" as leverage (see story above) or just view the woman as a baby incubator. And I will say that most men, even good, decent men, have no idea what is involved in a pregnancy.

 

[sparks19]

I'm torn on men having a say. Yes, you didn't make the baby by yourself, but the risk, the phyiscal pain, and in many cases, the primary responsibility, fall on the woman, as does any social stigma attached with an unplanned pregnancy. I understand that many men DO feel responsible, and DO feel they should have a say, and WILL help the mother to the best of their abilties. However, there are burdens they simply can't shoulder. And there are far too many men who would simply use their "say" as leverage (see story above) or just view the woman as a baby incubator. And I will say that most men, even good, decent men, have no idea what is involved in a pregnancy.

well like I said... there are definitely circumstances.

Like Mia's story... that man only wanted the power over his woman.

As for the risk... I understand all too well. I had to have an emergency termination because of unforseen complications. I was with a man at the time that I later realized didn't care for me at all. he made me feel like a horrible person because I "killed the baby" but it wasn't because he wanted the baby... he just wanted that hold over me that that kind of manipulation gave him. it made me feel worthless.

So... no the "sperm donor" shouldn't be the be all and end all of the decision BUT... if I were pregnant and wanted an abortion (which wouldn't happen with me especially knowing what I know now) my husband most certainly should be able to give his opinion and it should be something we discuss... not something I just run out and do without any consideration for his feelings.

and while men won't ever know what pregnancy is like (although mine was not bad at all minus the morning sickness phase lol and delivery was quite easy for me lol) men sometimes do put up with A LOT of abuse from their SO's when they are pregnant. I understand our hormones are out of control and we can't always control our cravings or when we get them but it's not a free pass to take everything out on your husband and treat him like dirt (yes I've seen this take place) So it's not always a pleasant ride for them either lol.

 

[noludoru]

I don't think these men in power should have any say but the father of your child perhaps should have a say. I realize it's your body your choice but you didn't make that baby all on your own and your partners voice should not just be ignored just because you wanna do what you wanna do. Both sides should be taken into consideration.

I agree with you, partially. It's a decision I'm torn on. I do not think most women should deliberately ignore what their partner wants in the issue (Mia's friend is a good example of when to say "F-U" and do what you need to do) but when it comes down to it, IMO while their partner's feelings on the matter should be taken into consideration, the decision is ultimately up to the woman. Because, frankly? My body is more important to me than someone else's wants, or their religious convictions. While I would feel terrible for hurting someone that way, my own body certainly could not sustain a pregnancy and I wouldn't want to pass on my genes anyhow - never mind the financial and job repercussions of pregnancy and child-raising, or any of the other things that come with having a baby... There are loads of other women in situations like mine, worse than mine, etc - women who cannot have a baby or simply are not ready to for one reason or another, financial and health reasons being very big ones.

But if the father has to have a say.. then we get into legislating that... and ultimately those 'men in power' still have control.

That is why I fully support the reasoning that it should be the woman's decision, and there should be no pressure on her to "consider other people's point of view" - because ultimately it will affect her the most.

 

[sparks19]

I don't think it should be legislated that the spouse has a say... more that women should consider their spouse when making such a decision. (barring medical reasons.)

I just hear a lot of people say that men should have no say at all and in a lot of cases they probably shouldn't but I do believe that in a committed relationship the communication should be there because while the woman is the one that has to carry the baby etc etc either decision will affect BOTH parties. I don't know... putting myself in a mans shoes who has been there through thick and thin for his spouse I would be devestated if my spouse didn't even talk to me about it and just went and made that decision knowing it would affect them both.