Why is it?

[Shalva]

Well that is just the point you do not see it as nonsense.... but to a person who is not a believer it seems to be nonsense to them which makes a conversation very difficult especially when one is discussing research or facts....

to the person who believes of course it is not nonsense..... to me it is nonsense.... I don't believe what you do.... I remember years ago I knew a woman who was talking about methusalah (spelling) and we were talking about pollution and aerosol sprays etc. and she in her argument about the impact of pollution on the air (way before global warming was a major topic) told me in her argument that methusalah lived to be 900 years old because there was less pollution..... now to me.... that is nonsense..... did she believe it...??? absolutely .... but to me it was the end of a conversation because I am not going to be able to have a serious conversation about an issue who is quoting bible stories.... now did she believe it absolutely did I??? nope I thought it was ridiculous.....

that is the divide.....

and it was the conversation ender.... again
you don't have to justify why you believe what you do..... and nobody is saying that your beliefs are nonsense to you.... clearly they are very important ......

and to a buddhist who believes in reincarnation and does not believe in heaven... you may see that as being a ridiculous belief....... you might realize that to them it is their belief and it is not nonsense to them.... but to you who believes in heaven and hell and God.... it may seem ridiculous.....

that is I believe what Fran meant..... she realizes that your belief is important to you but to her it just seems like nonsense.... as it did to me when I was told that a biblical story character lived to be 900 years old due to a lack of pullution.

its all in what you believe.....

 

[Dizzy]

It's really not. I haven't always been a believer so I know what it's like to not believe and I don't think it's nonsense at all. I've been there. I was very skeptical, I thought people who went to church but screwed up outside of church were hypocrites, I just believed all that stuff and I"m not even sure why. Probably because I didn't really know much.but I have changed. I am not suggesting that you should or anything like that but I'm just saying I have lived the other side of the spectrum so no I don't see it as nonsense.

This is a bit of a personal question, so you don't have to answer!

But, I am going to assume here, I'm guessing there was an event or series of events that lead up to you changing?

Something that left you feeling low and depressed, and something you felt you couldn't pull yourself out of alone?

I'm not disputing your belief, but I am trying to put it across how *I* see it.

You could have just as easily turned (and remember I am assuming, so could be wrong, so just insert anyone else here) to yoga, or meditation, or some other practice that people draw on in times of need, and you would have the same enthusiasm for that as you have religion...

What I am saying is, that having faith is something that reassures people as humans, and is a great concept, and helps humans think that we have some kind of purpose... when really... well... maybe we just don't?

Argh. I can't put my thought into words.

It's like... It's almost like I can understand WHY someone would believe in a god, I really can. I can imagine how wonderful it must feel, how safe and cosy and warm it would be. I can see how people turn to god, because, they haven't really got the oooomph in themselves alone to sort their lives out.

But I can also see alot of doors closing too. And I can see the reality - my reality. I can't rely on something I don't believe in to help me. That is nonsense.

Which sort of explains why people get bored with religious answers for moral debates. If you don't believe in it - it isn't a very juicy debate.

It would be like me saying - well, I think it all relates to the fairies. The sock pixies dictated how we should do it.

Funny at 1st, but if that was my answer for EVERYTHING, you would stop being respectful, and through no fault of your own be like... is that all you have to say?? Don't you have an original thought of your OWN?

Make sense?

Ahhhh... can you tell I have 2000 words to write today?

 

[Shalva]

In many respects I agree with Dizzy.... if humans are the only creature that understands its own mortality, religion is a protective factor. Because I think that the idea of end or of not being is very difficult for people to deal with and religion fills that void, whether it be Jews who the Rabbi told me the righteous sit at the right hand of god (I am probably up in the cheap seats) or heaven or reincarnation as in buddhist theology..... it is protective.... it also helps people to understand things when there is no understanding....

why did the six year old get cancer..... Gods will......
why is a person life so hard.... God wouldn't give them anything they couldn't handle it must be for a reason.....
why did the murderer get away with his crime.... he will be judged in the end....

it helps people to understand that which can't be comprehended easily.....

for me personally, I do believe in evolution.... I don't believe that God gives two hoots about what we are doing.... I do keep kosher and go to synogogue and have a very realistic view of all of that.... I think that I am more culturally Jewish than religiously Jewish and don't touch my hamburger with your cheese.....

I also believe that in the end whatever you believe is what you will find....

and Dizzy I love the name of your dog..... I have a parrot named Bhakti......
S

 

[Buckshot]

My place of worship is on top of mountains high above timberline. It has never been corrupted by "progress" or influenced by man and his weaknesses. I really should make it there at least once a week. I can see the honesty, beauty and brutality of natural life. --Now, after reading that you are probably ready to puke, right? Well that's how I feel about your religion. Wouldnt you just prefer I shut up and keep it to myself?

 

[Dizzy]

My place worship of is on top of mountains high above timberline. It has never been corrupted by "progress" or influenced by man and his weaknesses. I really should make it there at least once a week. I can see the honesty, beauty and brutality of natural life. --Now, after reading that you are probably ready to puke, right? Well that's how I feel about your religion. Wouldnt you just prefer I shut up and keep it to myself?

Oh no, now you see that is one place of worship I could hear about till the cows came home

 

[Dizzy]

*off topic*

I have a parrot named Bhakti......
S

That's lovely

Bodhi is a name I had picked out, and just loved, and loved the meaning to it. It's an area I know very little about though (Buddhism, meditation etc etc), and one I would really really love to learn more about!! I have taken baby steps, and did start yoga and meditation not so long ago (but had to stop Hopefully I will be able to find somewhere to go again soon!!)... I'll get there in the end I'm sure

 

[FoxyWench]

you dont need to go anywhere to meditate or do yoga, if you can set aside a small space in your home. there are many good video tapes and redorded soundtracks.

my personal favorite place to meditate is in the bath, i run a hot bath with a few drops of essential oil to the water light a candle or 2 and play soft celtic music and just meditate in there.

 

[Dizzy]

you dont need to go anywhere to meditate or do yoga, if you can set aside a small space in your home. there are many good video tapes and redorded soundtracks.

my personal favorite place to meditate is in the bath, i run a hot bath with a few drops of essential oil to the water light a candle or 2 and play soft celtic music and just meditate in there.

Oh, yes, I know this, but we were shown the skills on how to meditate successfully - which is basic common sense, but it did help so much The be all and end all is that I usually need a good KICK to get me moving and doing something, even if it's something I want to do! Lazy cancerian I find walking is my meditation at the moment.... It's the only time I get some peace!!!

 

[sparks19]

But you see this is the difference. You are all throwing scenarios at me on what you believe and you are assuming I think it is nonsense because those aren't my beliefs. But I DON'T. I REALLY REALLY don't. perhaps I should because that seems to be what is expected of me and I will enver escape that assumption I guess. But I really don't think it is ridiculous.

I realize that you have your beliefs probably for the same reason I have mine even if they are different beliefs. I can't quote you multiple verses from the bible, in fact I am not even to the point where I am ready to go to church because I have not found THE church that is right for me. I am NOT willing to just blindly follow a group just for the sake of not being labelled. neither of my parents are religious what so ever. I came to my faith and my conclusions on my own and yes a series of events did lead up to that. I never felt that I couldn't make it through anything on my own persay, more that while I was trying to get through it on my own I felt that I really did have some help. and then the sequence of events that unfolded after were so incredible to me. I was so afraid of this situation and that if I got out of it where would my life lead me? would there be anything for me? Then I just got this overwhelming feeling that I was never alone and never had been and it really is hard to explain what I felt and what exactly lead to my belief. Very hard to put into words. although that may be cause I just woke up ten minutes ago LOL

I am just not one of those people that see someone else's beliefs as nonsense just because I don't believe it. I have seen how one can find their beliefs and I just assume these people came to their beliefs in the same general way I did. that totally sounds PC but it's not about that at all. I just understand how one can come to believe (and that goes for any beliefs)

 

[Buckshot]

But you see this is the difference. You are all throwing scenarios at me on what you believe and you are assuming I think it is nonsense because those aren't my beliefs. But I DON'T. I REALLY REALLY don't. perhaps I should because that seems to be what is expected of me and I will enver escape that assumption I guess. But I really don't think it is ridiculous.

I realize that you have your beliefs probably for the same reason I have mine even if they are different beliefs. I can't quote you multiple verses from the bible, in fact I am not even to the point where I am ready to go to church because I have not found THE church that is right for me. I am NOT willing to just blindly follow a group just for the sake of not being labelled. neither of my parents are religious what so ever. I came to my faith and my conclusions on my own and yes a series of events did lead up to that. I never felt that I couldn't make it through anything on my own persay, more that while I was trying to get through it on my own I felt that I really did have some help. and then the sequence of events that unfolded after were so incredible to me. I was so afraid of this situation and that if I got out of it where would my life lead me? would there be anything for me? Then I just got this overwhelming feeling that I was never alone and never had been and it really is hard to explain what I felt and what exactly lead to my belief. Very hard to put into words. although that may be cause I just woke up ten minutes ago LOL

I am just not one of those people that see someone else's beliefs as nonsense just because I don't believe it. I have seen how one can find their beliefs and I just assume these people came to their beliefs in the same general way I did. that totally sounds PC but it's not about that at all. I just understand how one can come to believe (and that goes for any beliefs)

I don't get it. I see everything I don't believe in, as nonsense. If it made sense to me I would believe in it. How do you think atheism or evolution isn't nonsense if you think there is no sense in it? Being tolerant of people believing in nonsense is a whole nuther deal.

 

[skyeboxer]

My place worship of is on top of mountains high above timberline. It has never been corrupted by "progress" or influenced by man and his weaknesses. I really should make it there at least once a week. I can see the honesty, beauty and brutality of natural life. --Now, after reading that you are probably ready to puke, right? Well that's how I feel about your religion. Wouldnt you just prefer I shut up and keep it to myself?

I don't understand organised religion at all. Seems to me it has caused more death and misery since the dawn of mankind than any one other thing. I don't understand why so much money is poured into the edifices and folderol of organised religions when right outside the door there are people starving and homeless.

If there is a God, I see Her in nature just like Bedrock or in the eyes of my children or in small acts of kindness that we all see every day but maybe do not stop to recognise as such.

I certainly don't see God in one group of people (and I am talking all religions here) believing that they and they alone have the key to paradise and the rest of us are going to be left outside the promised land to burn in flames of our own making because we didn't believe a piece of bread transmuted into the body of Jesus or because we eat pork, drink alcohol or heaven forbid fornicate outside of wedlock.

 

[nancy2394]

I guess it's safe to say that the believers will never understand why the non believers don't believe and the non believers will never understand why the believers do believe.

It astonishes me as to how many people I've recently realized don't believe in God. It's certainly your choice... just as it is my choice to believe in God.

I'm sure it's a bit difficult for some to believe in something that is not tangible. I must admit that it was very difficult for me at first. I wanted to see God in front of me. I always thought.. how can you know something exists if you can't even see it?

I can't explain it... but for me... I just KNOW he exists. I'm not saying everyone who doesn't believe in him will be cast into hell to burn for eternity. I don't have the answers to that... I suppose one day we will all know what happens to our souls after we die. But I am comfortable with what I believe and it brings me comfort.

I have had some pretty powerful experiences that can not be explained. I can only attribute it to feeling the holy spirit within me. Some of you may be thinking "what nonsense" but I know what I experienced... it was real. I will never forget the day I was introduced to Christ.

I have only skimmed over the last several pages so I hope I didn't miss something before I comment right now. But I am confused as to why some are referring to religion as nonsense. Why do you feel it necessary to call it nonsense? Did anyone say that being a non believer is nonsense? Again.... I may have not read it correctly.. forgive me if I didn't. But it kind of bothered me to read that it was being referred to as that. I hope I mis understood what was being said.

 

[Buckshot]

If you are referring to the reply I made. I summed it up there. If I dont see any sense in it..it is nonsense to me. If I do see sense in it, I believe in it. I have no problem with anyone of any religion thinking my beliefs are nonsense.
I guess there is some exception to that rule. I dont think calculus is nonsense even though it is as mystical to me as a ghost who is all good, yet allows a weaker ghost who is all bad, to basically run willy nilly over his world.

 

[Dizzy]

Why do you feel it necessary to call it nonsense? Did anyone say that being a non believer is nonsense? Again.... I may have not read it correctly.. forgive me if I didn't. But it kind of bothered me to read that it was being referred to as that. I hope I mis understood what was being said.

To a non believer it isn't real, and is nonfictual, and therefore nonsense - ie - it makes no sense. Turning water to wine is a nonsense, as is walking on water, and other biblical "facts".

Just as if I was to say, I believe spam aliens came down and blessed the earth, and we are all in fact spam descendents, and will one day return to planet spam and live our lives long and prosperously - you would say I am talking nonsense.

 

[bubbatd]

Does it really matter folks ?? I respect all religions and people who live a good , honest life . I've also known many non believers , who when facing death " see the light " ..... plus many believers who end up being non-believers through tragedy in their life . It's another case of the glass being 1/2 full or 1/2 empty . We shall know in the end .

 

[nancy2394]

I suppose I can correlate it to me not believing in aliens. I find that stuff silly, despite the fact that there are many who do believe. I guess it just kind of rubbed me the wrong way for a second or two.

I'm sure part of it is because I am in a foul mood right now. It's a fluxuating hormonal day for me.... sigh.

 

[Buckshot]

I suppose I can correlate it to me not believing in aliens. I find that stuff silly, despite the fact that there are many who do believe. I guess it just kind of rubbed me the wrong way for a second or two.

It shouldnt rub you the wrong way. Most of the world disagrees with you and me both

 

[Renee750il]

I guess what perplexed me so was that I can remember other threads a long time ago about whicka (sp?) and other various religions that were being discussed at the time. And people who read the thread may not have had the same beliefs but they responded in a respectful manner and did not sling names or any hurtful names.

Well, of course it was civil . . . how many REALLY want to seriously PO any witches

It think the hackles get raised so much about Christianity because the government shoves it down our throats and one of the very foundations of Christian behaviour is founded on the idea that everyone who doesn't believe the same thing as that particular Christian is eternally damned - and you can't be accused of being wrong in much stronger terms. It's insulting, ego-centric and grossly offensive just on general principles. There are other religions that share that precept, and they are equally offensive when presented in that light - or darkness, depending on your point of view.

 

[M&M's Mommy]

For those with faith, no explanation is necessary. For those without, no explanation is possible. –Thomas Aquinas

For I do not seek to understand in order to believe, but I believe in order to understand. For I believe this: unless I believe, I will not understand. Anselm of Canterbury.

Faith is to believe what we do not see, and the reward of this faith is to see what we believe. –Augustine

We can believe what we choose. We are answerable for what we choose to believe. --John Henry Newman

These four above quotes pretty much sum up what I have to say about this subject. We could debate until eternity or argue until this thread is taken to pieces and still would not be able to come up to an agreement when it comes to religion. It is one thing to discuss about one's faith, another to belittle other's belief in the process. Discussing about faith is NOT an easy thing to do (believe me, I've been in many, many constructive discussions like this) - it takes lots of love, acceptance and tolerance to see pass one's own believe in order to have a good, constructive discussion.

Let me tell you this true story that happened to me not too long ago.. I was boxing up my stuffs because we were moving. It was late into the night, and I was about to finish up the last box when I realized I couldn't find my keys. My first thought was, oh oh, it must have been accidentally tossed inside one of the many trash bags that I've taken out to the dumpster during the process, or it could've been inside any of those tweenty-somthing boxes that I've closed up and stacked nicely in my room. I was tired, and panicked, because all I wanted to do was to sleep, yet I'd need my key in the morning to go to work. (I hold a very secured key at work, and could be disciplined if I lost it - this added a lot to my worries!)

So, what did I do? I prayed to St. Anthony of Padua who's known as the Patron Saint of Lost Items and Missing Persons, and ask Him to please pray to God with me and for me , then I went to my parents' room to wake them up, and asked them to pray for me, too.

When I came back to my room.. it was dark, so I bumped into a stack of boxes, and knocked the top SECONDTH one down, and guess what my keys fell right out!. It was inside a box of socks. What was so amazing was that the top box fell down right on top of the third box, and no mess were made!!

I fell onto my knees to say a thanksgiving prayer to God & of course, St Anthony, then went to bed, amazed by the power of prayers! I swear I could feel St. Anthony smiling over my shoulders, and nodding His head

The next morning, when I told this story to my co-workers, those whose belive said it was a miracle. Those who don't said it was just a coincident.

To me, it was a miracle that confirmed my believe in God. Miracles happen everyday. You see it or not is totally your choice.

 

[Whisper]

It think the hackles get raised so much about Christianity because the government shoves it down our throats and one of the very foundations of Christian behaviour is founded on the idea that everyone who doesn't believe the same thing as that particular Christian is eternally damned - and you can't be accused of being wrong in much stronger terms. It's insulting, ego-centric and grossly offensive just on general principles. There are other religions that share that precept, and they are equally offensive when presented in that light - or darkness, depending on your point of view.

That's extremely well said and hits the nail on the head. (Haha, I made a rhyme.)