Who's the No. 1 Guard Dog?

[Dekka]

I don't want to start an argument but the vast majority of dogs (any breed) would not actually engage and fight an adult male intruder. If you ever watch some bit work (Schutzhund, PSA etc.) you will see many dogs that come from good working lines that will actually bite and then run if they meet a rough decoy.

Many dogs will bark and act like they will defend but very few dogs (especially untrained) will actually fight to defend their beloved owner.

I don't know... Does the dog really feel the need to protect against a rough decoy? I mean does the handler feel frightened? Does the dog think its a wiser move to retreat and 'fight another day'?

I know of quite a few dogs who were nervous, friendly who did step up and protect when it mattered. When the humans are scared/upset and the dog is protecting its home and people, or just people.. Dogs know the difference between 'play work' and the real deal.

 

[Renee750il]

I don't know... Does the dog really feel the need to protect against a rough decoy? I mean does the handler feel frightened? Does the dog think its a wiser move to retreat and 'fight another day'?

I know of quite a few dogs who were nervous, friendly who did step up and protect when it mattered. When the humans are scared/upset and the dog is protecting its home and people, or just people.. Dogs know the difference between 'play work' and the real deal.

:hail: Exactly my feelings -- and experience. Bite work is SPORT. It's a GAME. PLAY. An intelligent dog knows the difference.

I don't like seeing true Filas do bite work. For them, there is such an instinct and drive to protect that it should never be trivialized and made into a fun game, because for them, it isn't. It's just a bad idea all around in my view.

 

[Amstaffer]

I don't know... Does the dog really feel the need to protect against a rough decoy? I mean does the handler feel frightened? Does the dog think its a wiser move to retreat and 'fight another day'?

I know of quite a few dogs who were nervous, friendly who did step up and protect when it mattered. When the humans are scared/upset and the dog is protecting its home and people, or just people.. Dogs know the difference between 'play work' and the real deal.

Just like humans, dogs are always thinking of self preservation. Some dogs will bark and even give a quick bite....if that results in success (ie the intruder retreats) they will be emboldened but against a real threat most dogs without serious fight drive will crumble. I am not trying to say anything bad about those dogs that don't have the fight drive, I am just saying people should be realistic in their expectations. A dog is usually a great deterrent but a gun is true protection when handled by a trained person. Some dogs will fight to the death for their owner but most would not... Breed matters but so does the training and breeding.

 

[Renee750il]

I have to think that whether or not a dog has actually successfully killed prey has some bearing as well.

And truly, some breeds have been selectively bred for hundreds -- even thousands -- of generations to have that drive to vanquish a threat. And maybe they know better than we that death is not something to fear, but a doorway to somewhere else, to the next adventure, greater knowing?

 

[corgipower]

I don't know... Does the dog really feel the need to protect against a rough decoy? I mean does the handler feel frightened?

Nope.

I very much believe there's a need for play drive in order for them to engage in training/sport. I know several dogs who absolutely won't touch a guy in a bite suit but will fight a real threat without any hesitation.

 

[corgipower]

I have to think that whether or not a dog has actually successfully killed prey has some bearing as well.

I don't.

Killing prey is different from engaging a human threat. Dogs have been bred for centuries to live with and work with people. They don't view us as prey. It's different drives.

However, being unsuccessful in a fight - whether with a human or prey - can certainly make them less eager to try another fight.

 

[Renee750il]

I suppose it's like everything -- subject to the individual dog. I saw a big difference in mine after they'd killed for the first time. There was a change in confidence.

 

[corgipower]

I suppose it's like everything -- subject to the individual dog. I saw a big difference in mine after they'd killed for the first time. There was a change in confidence.

I don't doubt that there would be increased confidence after a kill.

I just don't think there's a huge carry-over to protection against human threats. But I'll have to get back to you after a dog of mine kills something. Just that they use different drives. And there are an awful lot of very nice protection dogs in the world that have never killed.

But in bite work training, a good helper will even go so far as to fall to the ground and pretend he's being killed. Even though it's not real, the dog's confidence definitely increases.

Successful herding can do wonders for confidence, too. Even fake successes at herding. Like when Tyr worked sheep...he thought he was hot stuff. He didn't realize that the sheep were following the trainer, I was following the sheep and he was following me. He thought it was all him making them move. :lol-sign:

 

[smkie]

I don't know how a guy in a bite suit would give the same smell, adrenaline, fear sweat, and more that a real situation has but I don't pretend to know anything about the training of such things. I do know that every time in my life I have needed a dog to step up and help me out (while I exuded that fear sweat and my heart was pumping with adrenaline) my dogs have never let me down. Even the calmest easiest going ones. Mom use to have to lock up my schnauzer poodle mix to spank me when I was very small.

 

[Renee750il]

Successful herding can do wonders for confidence, too. Even fake successes at herding. Like when Tyr worked sheep...he thought he was hot stuff. He didn't realize that the sheep were following the trainer, I was following the sheep and he was following me. He thought it was all him making them move. :lol-sign:

LOL! Total guy What an ego, hmm? Although it's not just the males with the egos. After Kharma'd killed and eaten her first groundhog, she was ready to stand off a one ton bull -- at 5 1/2 months old But she did, lol. OJ turned around and went the the long way around instead of trying to come through his regular path where I was picking berries. You could see her ego swelling :rofl1:

 

[Xandra]

I don't know... Does the dog really feel the need to protect against a rough decoy? I mean does the handler feel frightened? Does the dog think its a wiser move to retreat and 'fight another day'?

I guess it depends what the dog displays... I mean, if on the field the presence of the decoy causes the dog to bristle, snarl, bark, give a shallow nip, etc, then the dog DOES think there's a threat there, so he should feel the need to protect, right?

:hail: Exactly my feelings -- and experience. Bite work is SPORT. It's a GAME. PLAY. An intelligent dog knows the difference.

I don't like seeing true Filas do bite work. For them, there is such an instinct and drive to protect that it should never be trivialized and made into a fun game, because for them, it isn't. It's just a bad idea all around in my view.

I totally see your point about not wanting to go through formal protection training, but would you agree that the dogs should have to prove that they WILL bite (via a live bite or in a carefully and realistically staged scenario) before being bred? I don't think going through ever scenario in the book is necessary but for protection breeds, I think a breed-worthy dog should bite with confidence, in foreign surroundings, under threat.

I have to think that whether or not a dog has actually successfully killed prey has some bearing as well.

I agree for the most part, but I think it's winning a fight that matters... for instance, I don't think a dog catching mice or grasshoppers helps... it's too quick and there's no resistance. But raccoons, coyotes, etc. I agree.

 

[stafinois]

IMO, the dog needs to first be a family dog. If he isn't something I want to live with, he's not going to be useful to me as a guard dog.

When I was living in Oregon and training with the FR/PP club, some of the more paranoid guys in the club cracked me up. They thought I was ruining Harry as a protection dog as I "babied" him and he was a housepet. These guys were so concerned about having a dog that would defend their families that the dogs lived in kennels behind their garages. I dunno, but even if I was putting a baby bonnet on him and pushing him around in a stroller, Harry would have been the one that would be the best protection dog being that he was actually around people to protect :rofl1:

 

[Renee750il]

I totally see your point about not wanting to go through formal protection training, but would you agree that the dogs should have to prove that they WILL bite (via a live bite or in a carefully and realistically staged scenario) before being bred? I don't think going through ever scenario in the book is necessary but for protection breeds, I think a breed-worthy dog should bite with confidence, in foreign surroundings, under threat.

I'd rather see a dog use good judgement in real world situations -- be willing to bite, but have the sense to know when the threat is over without having to carry through. I've been fortunate in being able to see Kharma do both, though, exactly as her breed has been bred to perform, in a real life situation. I don't, however, think she would take a trial seriously at all. I realize not too many have the opportunity to see their dogs do what they are bred to do, naturally.

I've never gotten to see her hunt jaguar, of course, but I've seen her hunt, and kill, and called her back from stalking coyotes -- she's been too smart to allow herself to be drawn within reach of the rest of the pack but she's REALLY wanted to catch one out on his own. I've seen her pack hunt with Shiva and/or Bimmer, and seen how they split up and work together when guarding me or working cattle. I've seen her deal with wild cattle, and I've seen her deal with human threats and her reactions to gunfire in real life situations, and that, for me, is the only truly conclusive testing. Anything else is speculation, but for the most part, educated speculation in the form of trials is what we have to extrapolate from to find out if the dog will react appropriately under threat.

Many of the Fila people would give me holy hell for socializing her as well as I have, so that she can accompany me just about anywhere, but what good is a guardian if you have to keep them locked away? And these are dogs who want to be with you, 24/7, so a good one will figure out what he or she needs to do to be able to go with you.

I'd place far more confidence in a dog treated the way Stafinois described that one that's kept locked away. Besides, what good does the dog do you in the kennel?

 

[-bogart-]

on a personall uneducated view on PP dogs , i found through the year of dogs ihave owned/been around , it was the quite confident dogs who would really protect in a situation. all the barkers would fear bite and run.

now this is non PP trained dogs , just house dogs really. but it has been true for all of them.

 

[corgipower]

These guys were so concerned about having a dog that would defend their families that the dogs lived in kennels behind their garages.

How is a dog going to defend you when he's kenneled? opcorn:

Many of the Fila people would give me holy hell for socializing her as well as I have, so that she can accompany me just about anywhere, but what good is a guardian if you have to keep them locked away?

IMO, all that socialization is going to make them a better judge of what is a threat. They see all different types of people - sizes, genders, races, clothing, etc. They see handicaps and drunks and a ton of weird but harmless behaviors. They learn not to go off just because someone walks and talks differently. They can't learn that if they're not out and about in public.

 

[Pops2]

a few points i disagree with
1. not all dogs are selfpreserving cowards anymore than all people are some are, if they were you'd never get any dog to hunt bear, boar, big cats or wolves and the little terriers wouldn't go down a hole after badger, fox etc.

2. a dogs willingness or ability to engage and even kill wild animals, while indicative of it's physical ability, is not indicative of it's mental ability to engage a human being.

3. sport work is a building block that prepares the dogs for real work ALL military & police K9s start training for sport and move on to real work. it is like kids starting w/ BB guns & wrestling before they join the Marines and go to war.

 

[ACooper]

a few points i disagree with
1. not all dogs are selfpreserving cowards anymore than all people are some are, if they were you'd never get any dog to hunt bear, boar, big cats or wolves and the little terriers wouldn't go down a hole after badger, fox etc.

Absolutely agreed.

Everyone of us here have read stories or SEEN first hand dogs who've put themselves in mortal danger for the sake of the person/people they love. Dogs with no more training than potty training.......normal, everyday beloved pets.

Whether it was a fire, an intruder, another animal attacking, whatever the case may be. They didn't stop to weigh out the consequences to themselves before they acted, just as some people jump off a bridge to save a drowning person, run into a fire, etc........you act first and shake later, LOL

Dogs are the same IMO, and if they wouldn't engage a burglar while we were away, I'm fine with that (I would expect them to place the same value on my belongings as I do..........take it all), but I know for CERTAIN Phoebe would and has put herself between me and danger, and she loves the kids even moreso, and I'd hope Orson would too. He's never been tested, and I hope he never is as far as that goes.

 

[BostonBanker]

I say, any dog that loves you, and is well loved in return.

IMO, a lot of it has to do with the bond you share with that dog in particular just as much (or in some cases MORE) than training. Could be wrong, and I could just be riding luck all these years, LOL

I hope (and for that matter, believe) both are wrong. I am far happier owning a dog who I don't think would bite in any situation than having a dog who will rise to defend when she feels it is needed. I know I'm in the minority, but I don't want my dog "defending" me. There are too many sue-happy people out there, and every dog, no matter how intelligent or magical, is capable of making a bad judgment call.

I adore Meg beyond reason, and I know she shows great affection to me. And I sincerely hope that if someone breaks into my house, she just plain stays out of the way. She will occasionally put on a bit of display when people try to enter the car if I'm not there, or when people try to go upstairs in the house, and I'm working on training her out of those reactions. Both I think are more of a resource guarding behavior from her ("These are my spots!") than any noble defense in my honor.

 

[Amstaffer]

I don't know how a guy in a bite suit would give the same smell, adrenaline, fear sweat, and more that a real situation has but I don't pretend to know anything about the training of such things. I do know that every time in my life I have needed a dog to step up and help me out (while I exuded that fear sweat and my heart was pumping with adrenaline) my dogs have never let me down. Even the calmest easiest going ones. Mom use to have to lock up my schnauzer poodle mix to spank me when I was very small.

I know guys who do decoy work and even though they have done it many times there is still an instinctual fear and clear adrenaline release each and every time a dog hits the sleeve. Granted they don't release as much as a real intruder but I bet the dog still smells it. I also know that some breeders that also train their dogs (eg Redstar Kennels) train not only for sport like FR but also for real life situations.

 

[Amstaffer]

a few points i disagree with
1. not all dogs are selfpreserving cowards anymore than all people are some are, if they were you'd never get any dog to hunt bear, boar, big cats or wolves and the little terriers wouldn't go down a hole after badger, fox etc.

Not sure who said "All" dogs are selfpreserving cowards...it surely wasn't me. Pops2, would you agree that if you collected a random sample of all the breeds listed in the poll, don't you think that 85% or more would choose flight rather than fight especially if you eliminated those who were trained or those from breeders who bred for working temperament. Actually if you did that I think it would be much higher.