Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by Tessthepest, Oct 23, 2011.
Send pictures and a pedigree. I'd love to see working dogs generation to generation.
White GSDs are just GSDs according to AKC registration. There is a huge divide in the breed between people who want them to be an accepted color of the GSD and people who want to split them into a separate breed. A lot of crossing to American Showlines went on with wGSDs for awhile because the breeders involved wanted the more show type dog. Dare I say that crossing to American Showlines is not a great way to enhance drive and solid nerves consistently in the breed. That is the direction the majority of wGSD breeders seem to want to go in though. A lot of other ones are breeding huge white GSDs for pets. If there is a population of working wGSDs, it is a small one. I have seen one webpage of a breeder in Europe who does SchH with his whites. Compared to hundreds upon hundreds who do SchH with their standard colored GSDs.
The Hoofprint dogs don't do SchH or HGH herding and that is the standard that working GSDs are judged against. Just because there's a few dogs on a police force doesn't mean a lot either. Many police forces take whatever dogs are donated to them and make do. It isn't right or good but that is the way it works.
I don't say this to try to knock wGSDs at all. I don't think there is anything wrong with wGSDs, they are what they are. The major market for them has been as pets for so long that it has effected the type of dog that is generally produced. Now many breeders of them are very show oriented. It doesn't make them bad dogs and if the OP is looking for a good pet, there are plenty of wGSD breeders she could go to. Which is why I asked what they were interested in.
I agree that you need to add 'better' but what you or I might determine is better is not what they would.
I was more wondering if the breed of white GSDs (I knew they had broken off into their own breed) was completely closed or not.
Basicallly I see it like this. A good dog can come from anywhere and be any color. GSD's have been bred to a standard that has developed a working dog known world wide for it's temperment, courage, nerve, strength and trainability. Breeders that still adhere to this standard, still produce the medium sized working dog that built this reputation.
Then you have other breeders that use a standard i theory, but their dogs haven't passed a fairly administered test in generations, and they focus on other things like coat color or how they trot.
Then you have other breeders that follow no standard at all, or breed for out of standard stuff, and you're hard pressed to find quality dogs in those litters with any regularity. Sure some pop up now and again, but there's no consistency, other than substandard dogs.
GSD's have been a breed for a little over 100 years and almost from the inception of the stud books and breed standard, White has been against the standard all over the world. The US allowed it for showing for a while, but everywhere else those breeding for white, were breeding for color and out of standard dogs.
in 10 years you can have huge shifts when you breed away from a standard, you can imagine what would happenn in 100 years.
Nobody is culling a lot of dogs today, they're worth too much money. white dogs aren't being born the world over and being killed without a word to hide a secret.
There's a few dogs i've seen linked that are white and working, but a lot have been dogs that have been dead for years. A handful of dogs in the world doesn't really scream of equal ability to me. Not when we had more dogs titled this past summer than i've seen white dogs titled on the internet in a decade.
Successful is subjective, to me being successful in flyball is running under 6 seconds and clean on a team and being a breed (on a breed level) people seek for the sport.
There are the only two wGSD doing flyball with U-Fli:
Similarly, I personally know a few off breeds that are very successful in obedience in the fact they even can do it at all however when seeking my next sporting obedience dog I will seek a dog that will give me the edge with the ability to hold their focus and drive through high stress and offer me quick and sharp movements when asked.
Same goes for agility, sch, and so forth. I'm not saying wGSD can't do anything, I'm sure they can do anything, but to call them successful is in fact subjective and some people have higher standards.
I'm not sure I've ever seen a wGSD at any of my DD or SD competitions nor on the record books.
Excelling as a pet, I hear they do that very well actually which is *vital* however, if I were to recommend someone to a dog for competitive sport or work I wouldn't pick a breed that hasn't shown itself as a strong competitor.
OK I will say it one more time. Those are not the only working dogs she has produced. She has produced many many more. Those are just the ones she chose to put on that page. Kat said that you won't find working wGSD's. If you do it is a novelty. With just one link, showing one breeders dogs I proved her wrong. Just one breeder in many many breeders. But because I proved her wrong my words are being twisted to saying that she only produced 19 working dogs in 40yrs which is far from the truth.
But I can see how this will go easily. And Doug and I knew it would when I posted the link last night. It is the same way it goes every time this debate comes up and their are people that still believe the crap about whites. I post a link proving their statements as wrong so they will twist and turn that into anything they can. I could sit here and post link after link of sch. trained dogs, police, military and so I. I and others have done it many times over the years. But it always ends up the same way. The people posting the old falisies will continue to believe what they want. So I will post no more. Like I said eariler the people who truely know and love the whites know that they are a working breed with the same abilities as a colored GSD AS LONG as you look for the right lines. Plain and simple. So continue to believe what you want. Makes no difference to me.
Dekka, The stud books for the Berger Blanc Suisses are closed now and they are now considered a seperate breed.
When Sheena was competing in Flyball her standard time was 5.2 seconds and she was consistant at that. wGSDs excel at just about anything. They are excellent Service Dogs for the disabled, police dogs, military dogs, SAR dogs, detection dogs, you name it they can excell at it if you look for the right lines. That is the main key. They are not just a pet, though just like the majority of any breed of dog out there, most are pets. This is a working breed of dog and is happiest doing a job.
Anyway I am out of this now. I don't like reading falisies about my breed because it gets my back up and I get very defensive reading the old falsehoods being spread about them when I know this breed is not what some state. So you all contiue to believe what you do. I will also and we can go on our merry way.
Why haven't the whites continued to show in schutzhund trials or mondio or the K-9 trials?
Are they not ideal for protection sport such as the colored dogs? I am genuinely curious, there is nothing wrong with it, why is that a divide between white and color coated GSD?
Also I am sure they compete but I don't see them in any of the sports I frequent, I just have trouble considering them sporting dogs when I don't see them actively sporting (nor in the reports).
Did you see a lot of wGSD in NAFA? Unfortunately NAFA doesn't share their breed stats online.
Thank you, this post explains things very well. I don't claim to know much (anything?) about wGSD's but this make a lot of sense.
Like Romy said, not likely to happen. Just from this thread alone, you should be able to see that obvious bias against whites. Knew of a breeder who produced a liver puppy a year or two ago, it was kept VERY quiet. Didn't know about it at all until I started doing a LOT of digging around, realized I actually KNEW the owner, and finally was able to link the dog back to the kennel. The owner was not allowed to even reveal the kennel name of the dog, and I know more often than not a breeder may actually insist the dog not be registered under his/her kennel name.
No, they aren't being killed regularly, but they aren't being flaunted, either. Working line breeders with white puppies popping up in their breedings just aren't going to be bragging about it.
That's funny, because most working bred German Shepherds have many dogs in the pedigree with show ratings. It's actually required that your dog's conformation is assessed and a passing show rating awarded if you're wanting to breed and have the puppies SV registered. Show ratings and titles don't necessarily equate to show specified breeding.
I haven't seen many German show lines that impress me, either. But I've known a few. Amazing dogs.
:lol-sign: My dog is west German lines, tracing back to Crok, Lord, and Cordon's littermate. Bred by a working dog judge with a daughter who's the youngest certified in North America. Given plenty of lectures and spoken at seminars and worked with K-9 units to their certification.
I know a little bit about working dogs, got a lovely working bred dog myself. He is a working bred dog through and through - protective, driven, intense, demands respect with a great presence, but an incredible companion. Aloof and intelligent, defensive when need be with an excellent off switch. Littermate active in SAR, multiple full siblings in Schutzhund, a SCHH3 VPG3 sire, SCHH1 KKL1 dam, and several dogs related to his sire and dam active police dogs.
But thanks for the recommendation
My God, people with sense
+1 Aleron and release the hounds. Always good to read your posts.
Well, no, but I don't see German Shepherds as sporting dogs either. I define success, in this context, as a breeder who still can breed for the total dog and participate/compete in a certain venue, and title their dogs at higher levels of competition.
I never stated that all white German Shepherds were fabulous working and sporting dogs. Just that a dog isn't necessarily going to be total **** just because of coat color, which seems to be the general attitude taken up by a couple of people here (not directing this at you, this is for everyone in general ).
i don't think a lot of people don't like whites because they are white, it comes from the attitude that the attitude that they aren't "different" and in fact are doing everything all the other dogs are doing.
I know full well there are more crappy GSD's in this country than one's I'd own. I also know that breeders that are using the standard as a standard, and testing and pressuring and breeeding to that standard, are consistently producing dogs I'd take any day of the week.
I know there are some that are biased against certain dogs, not many I know, but there are people like that. Everyone is biased to some degree, but I have a hard time believing most I've trained with wouldn't work a white dog that somebody wanted to work with because of its color.
as long as someone is willing, tries and has fun, we work with them. Even if the dog is a total spook, they get to work on things that allow them to have fun and not create any liability issues. The majority of the people I know are that way. of course I know some that if your dog didn't come from them, then it's automatically ****, but they aren't the norm.
I think the consistency is at issue. If your going to make claims that these dogs are everywhere doing everything, then there should be more than the same old and dated examples from 15 years ago right at my fingertips, especially in the age of the interent.
it's not hard to find working dogs, certified, titled etc by the tens, hundreds and thousands if you care to spend that much time looking that happens every year in this country. just in the past year i've personally either did helper work for 40 new titles and certifications for 4 new PD's. and i'm just a small fish.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find 4 new certs in this entire country of whGSD's in the past year. I just dont' ever come across them or hear of them.
release the hounds, you must know better people than others do. If only every club and group had such an attitude. I have a friend who wanted to and could title her Am line bitch to a BH and AD, but was turned down by all but one of the many clubs she contacted (the last club never responded). Wouldn't even test her dog. Also knew someone who sold a white puppy to someone interested in SchH, only to find that no one was willing to work with them. It was certainly disheartening to hear.
That is disheartening, nobody starts out a national champion, but some seem to forget how they started. They usually don't have world level dogs either when they start. My perceptions then and what I know now are miles apart.
I obviously don't know the specifics in those situations, but I can say things go "bad" for people for all sorts of reasons. Some are because of a crappy club, some because they don't understand what's going on, some because they just don't want to believe their dogs isn't all they think it is, some because they think it's a 6 week course and you get a certificate at the end to move on to the next level, and the list goes on.
All I can really control is how I treat others that show up to train. If they have a dog, and are willing to work, it will be trained to that dog's ability. nobody is rushed, pushed to the side, ignored, etc. My niceness tends to go away when people want to either push their dogs into sitations they aren't prepared for mentally or thru training, or they just want to show up and waste people's time.
Well, now I know who to recommend others talk to if they are out in the midwest looking for some good people to train with Wish the planned move to the midwest area panned out for me, sounds like just the kind of club I'd find perfect. That was my biggest obstacle to get past, finding a club that would not push the dog at a young age or early stage when the dog is just not ready.
I do not think good clubs are rare, but I have heard plenty of horror stories from people with firsthand experience... people who've had people look down on them for their lack of experience and dog's lines, yell at them for being slow due to health related issues, and physically hurt their dog beyond appropriate training. I have personally had the good fortune to have found several extremely helpful people willing to talk to me about Schutzhund, and a very supportive breeder, so I have not had trouble yet myself. But it still hurts when I hear from good people about their negative experiences.
I do also agree with you on the consistency issue. If someone was looking for a working dog, namely for police or protection work, I would not recommend anyone specifically look for breeders with wGSDs/WSS. Wouldn't recommend them specifically look for show lines either, and most people I know understand I like both types of dogs quite a lot. I don't think that in general they are good working dogs, but neither do I think they should be discounted entirely. Not every white GSD is going to be weak nerved and show bred and lacking type and drive - like you said in an earlier post (or rather, as you implied), a good dog is a good dog.
That being said, I think a lot of them can do just fine as performance dogs. I do actually know quite a few that are competitive in many venues of performance with multiple titles and a rather impressive career (then again, I did also say I was easily impressed).
We'll work with anyone willing to put in the effort at my club. We have a border collie right now. (which humorously looks like a white gsd)
I didn't know Border Collies could be all white - what a pretty dog!
I don't have many pics that aren't puppy pictures, lol. But here's the male at a training meet. The other one that belongs to the training officer is his litter sister.
They had colored littermates too I think. She said that was why his ears are creamy instead of really pure white. It took them a pretty long time to find white prospects for working, but then they're pretty picky and didn't like a lot of the colored dogs they met either.
Edit: This is from Dog Meet 2011. I sent her an e-mail asking who the breeder is because I have no idea what lines are behind him, and since they're in WA it might be a breeder the OP would be interested in.
I don't think anyone posted any fallacies about your breed (GSDs? or do you consider wGSDs separate?). It's great your wGSD did well at Flyball and that you know some who do other stuff. But it is hard to argue that they aren't being selected for "work" the same way the working line GSDs are being selected. There are some American show line and pet bred GSDs who have gotten SchH titles or been used as patrol dogs but like with wGSDs it isn't what those lines are being strongly selected for. Like I said before, they are what they are. There is such a range in what different owners like in GSDs, from the ginormous wooly low drive "king sized" dogs to the firecracker 22" working line bitches and everything in between. That's why I asked what the OP was looking for in a dog
FWIW The SchH/protection clubs here are all very welcoming towards interested people, regardless of breed. One of my friends even trained her Standard Poodle at the closest SchH club
I think this is where some of the confusion and defensiveness in the thread is coming from.
Within the german shepherd breed, regardless of color, you have a wide variety of lines with different phenotypes, drive, temperament, health, etc.
For some reason white coated shepherds are being lumped into one entire "type". As in, American showlines, German highlines, working bred (which has a whole bunch of different subsets within it), pet bred, and white shepherds.
There's just as much variation among white coated shepherds as there is within the colored ones. They don't all belong to the same type, and that typing is what people who work with them seriously take offense at.
Yes, there is a highly visible subset of white shepherd breeders who breed for 100+ lb. plush coated couch potatoes, don't health test, and sell their litters on puppyfind. But that is not representative of all white coated shepherds, or even a majority of them. The clubs that have been formed for breeding them as a separate breed have a pretty good standard and health tests put together that they're adhering to. And white coated shepherds who are born alongside colored littermates are equal to those puppies in every other way, regardless of whether that litter was pet bred, show lines, working bred, etc.
Sadly, unless someone is well educated about finding a responsible breeder they're going to find the visible crappy breeders on puppyfind, rather than someone producing good sound dogs. Then when they take those dogs out as newbies wanting to do PP or Sch, they get thrown out or the dogs aren't sound because they came from crap breeders. Not because they are white. They would have gotten the same result if they'd went and bought an "old fashioned" gsd advertised on the same types of websites.
And there is a demand for lighter colored working dogs in some areas, namely service work and SAR. With SAR the benefits of having a highly visible partner when working in dark forested areas is kind of obvious. Same thing for service work. A big, visible dog helping you cross a road gives some extra peace of mind. Similar to how a white cane lets people know to yield and watch out. This is why you see most working bred white shepherds doing SAR or service work. That's where the demand for puppies lays. I notice people overlook Strider a lot even though he's huge because he's also dark. Many are intimidated by him, and that causes access problems at times. Kaia has MUCH more white, and people always notice her right away. They'll move out of our way, and her appearance is a lot less threatening.
My uncle is a sheriff and he mentioned that white police dogs would be pretty handy, since they have to announce when they're letting a dog loose after a suspect anyway so there is no stealth aspect any more. And more than a few police K9s have been killed by friendly fire because it was dark and the dog was also dark.
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