What's so bad about breeding 'designer' dogs?

[Renee750il]

I dont have a problem if its done RIGHT. Ie health testing, breeding stock thats like F4 or better. creating a standard and breeding to that.

The problem with that statement is that Labradoodles, Puggles, and so forth are bred for personal gain.
. . .
So if a person needs to cross a breed for an actual and true purpose, does proper health testing and screening, doesn't bred for money, and is considered by many a "reputable" breeder- go for it. Otherwise, please go rescue the mixes your creating that don't have homes and don't add to that ever growing list.. please.

I believe labradoodles have a future. But not unless some breeders do the right thing. A whole lot of people think they are making a new breed by breeding labs to poodles, not true. But I've read a few articles about decent breeders that are aiming for a healthy breed with a purpose in the future.

I believe there are some labradoodle clubs around, people breeding for the betterment of the "breed" so I'd look around, see how they are devising a standard, get a clear goal in mind of what dogs she is looking to breed. Study both the lab and poodle breeds and test for their genetic diseases, understand what a good topline looks like and other things that I couldn't pick like some other people can.
Have a job the dog should do that it has to prove itself in before it can be bred, maybe a assistance dog breed that perhaps doesn't take so long to mature like the lab can, or that is hypo allergenic for people with allergies (per the original purpose of this cross)? Maybe as a water retreiver, search and rescue extraodanaire etc.

Because at this stage, most of these dogs are quite "raw" in that they are still very closely related to both the poodle and the lab, she must understand eveyrthing about these 2 breeds. They're pro's and their con's, they're structure, they're history, their purpose, their temperment, behaviour, independence levels, their intelligence, their willingness to work, their coat type, they're eating/sleeping habits and their health issues.

This is a LOT of work, and exactly why so many people are going about it all the wrong way.

Only after all this is figured out can she start looking at how to breed reputably, how to screen homes, how to health test, how to help a bitch that is breaching, what to do about fading puppy syndrome, how to draw up a contract, how she will find the money if god forbid, the bitch needs an emergency C-section, what she will do if the puppies are returned etc.

Would she be interetsed in tying in with a guide dogs organisation and discussing this with them, understand why the labXpoodle breed was first tried and discuss with them if they believe there is a future in this breed if bred properly. WOuld she be willing to find/train/work/place a poodle as a guide dog so to perhaps help the offspring have a better chance at this job.

Sorry if not a lot of that makes sense, but creating a breed is a massive thing, you can't just chcuk a few breeds together and see whta comes out.

but honestly, I think the biggest issue with this breed is that, to breed good dogs you need to start with good dogs. To get good dogs you need to go to a reputable breeder, and good luck getting a dog from them if you plan on mix breeding with it. Another reason why you can't find a well bred labradoodle.

Those are EXCELLENT, well presented points that have a great deal of validity.

If by then the big labradoodle factories in Australia haven't managed to get the breed recognized... I doubt it will ever happen. Which is a bit of a shame, I'd love to have one

Fran, remember, being "recognized" isn't necessarily always a good thing for a breed. Look at where a great many recognized breeds are headed . . . . The reason many of us with *unrecognized* breeds will fight tooth and nail to remain so.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

True but most of those breeds have some sort of organized club/body with typically a pretty strict infrastructure, aimed at protecting, preserving, and properly breeding the breed. They have something they are working towards...some sort of unity, some sort of bar they hold to, be it working, hunting, or conformation...or a combo of those.

Absence of that really amounts to a bunch of isolated pockets of folks breeding whatever the heck they want, for whatever purpose they want, and calling it an 'XYZ'.

 

[Boreayl_Chinooks]

True but most of those breeds have some sort of organized club/body with typically a pretty strict infrastructure, aimed at protecting, preserving, and properly breeding the breed. They have something they are working towards...some sort of unity, some sort of bar they hold to, be it working, hunting, or conformation...or a combo of those.

Absence of that really amounts to a bunch of isolated pockets of folks breeding whatever the heck they want, for whatever purpose they want, and calling it an 'XYZ'.

I totally agree and it takes YEARS of being involved and recieving constructive criticism to the develop depth of knowledge required to breed puppies of consistent quality. Heck, there are plenty of people I wouldn't buy a purebred from even if they started with decent lines let alone someone trying to start from scratch by tinkering with a mixed bag.

For a good breeder, the "personal gain" equates to the feeling of eventually having left the breed in better condition than when they started and one won't come out one cent ahead financially if they truely have accomplished.

Debbie

 

[Zoom]

What else would one throw in with a lab- or golden/poodle mix?? Maybe that's the answer right there, labs in with the goldens and goldens in with the labs.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

I believe some of the more serious doodle people have experimented with adding Wheaten and another breed I am forgetting at the moment. If their aim is hypoallergenic then they'd have to use care what breeds they use.

 

[corgipower]

Australian Labradoodle Association of America

from here (FWIW) -

The Confirmed and Approved Parent Breeds of the Australian Labradoodle are the Poodle (Standard, Miniature, Toy, Labrador Retriever, Irish Water Spaniel, Curly Coat Retriever, American Cocker Spaniel and English Cocker Spaniel.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

spaniels? LOL. I guess the low allergy thing isn't as high a priority as I thought, lol. Wonder what niche they are breeding to fill, then.

 

[corgipower]

spaniels? LOL. I guess the low allergy thing isn't as high a priority as I thought, lol. Wonder what niche they are breeding to fill, then.

LOL!! I don't know for sure, but I suspect the cocker spaniel was to try to make the coat silkier.
*sigh*

 

[Laurelin]

I always thought the cocker spaniels were an odd addition.

I thought they were brought in for size reasons? I know even some of the 'more serious' doodle breeders are trying for minis...

 

[HoundedByHounds]

How about getting ONE SIZE STANDARD fixed then moving on...LOL. Some folks...you gotta wonder if they understand genetics at all.

 

[corgi_love]

The puggle was originated with the purpose to develop the ultimate cute dog, after a survey of what pet owners wanted a cute dog to look like.

The labradoodle was originated to be a "hypo-allergenic" assistance dog.

Breeding for personal gain is kinda what all breeders do anyway. How that personal gain is defined is another issue - it may be because you want to develop better individuals for that breed specifically for the breed ring, it may be that you want to develop better working lines in the breed, it may be because you want to raise more puppies or because you want money...not all personal gain reasons are bad, but all are personal gain.

Many of the breeds recognized by AKC have strayed far from their original purpose.

...An ultimate cute dog is NOT a reason to create a dog breed. That's the worst excuse for creating a dog I have ever heard o__O;

There are a list of about 25 dogs that are hypo-allergenic purebred dogs out there, and just about ANY dog can be trained as a great assistance dog.

I have to disagree that reputable and respectable breeders, breed for personal gain. And if you refuse to see it any other way, than the 'reason' for personal gain between a reputable dog breeder versus a designer breeder differ greatly. My point was that designer dog breeders breed for cash, not for bettering the breed. Yes? Yes. o__O;

And I have to again disagree. I can't tell you how many dog breeders I know that are involved with herding and working as well as showing.

 

[Dekka]

why is have a cute dog not a good thing? Many toys whole purpose is to be a cute companion. Why should all the breeds of dogs we have today, be all the breeds we ever have?

I am glad Rev. John Parson didn't like the current hunting terriers (and yes there were breeds who worked foxes to earth) and made the JRT.

Are you saying that anyone who wants to create or resurrect a breed is only in if for financial gain? If so I know of some Silken windhound breeders who I am sure would love to talk to you.

Sure SOME herding people do conformation, and SOME conformation people do herding. But really from my study of genetics, if I had to pick one group to be incharge of a breed, it would be the working group. I know of a few ch BC who can't herd, Ch labs who are too bulky to do a day in the field, don't get me started on fox terriers, NONE of whom could physically go down a fox hole if they even had the desire left to do so, etc etc. Dogs look the way they do because of what they were bred to do, not the other way around.

To me the extreme of conf breeding is its like trying to make a car look so much like a car, but forgetting to but the engine in. It looks great but is useless. The working extreme is trying to make the ultimate car without care to the look of the thing. If I had to choose between the two, I would go with a car that was a car, rather than just a hunk of metal that looked like one. (of course there is a sliding scale in between the 2 extremes. The best breeders IMO who go for true to breed temperament and health first, then breed for looks.

 

[corgi_love]

^Agree to disagree.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

again the slamming of conf. gets old. Calling a conformation bred dog "useless" is offensive and divisive and plain unnecessary.

If one cannot make a point without belittling the interests of others, and the very animals they claim to love...that speaks volumes, IMO.

 

[JennSLK]

also, lets say I wanted to do it right. No decent lab or poodle breeder is going to give me a puppy to breed. So I would have to go to the bad breeders. So your not starting out with quality.

 

[HoundedByHounds]

That's conf. people's fault too Jenn...LOL. The same things been suggested as to why Mill are so bad...we should be helping them out, too by selling them stock...according to some.

 

[Suzzie]

The problem with that statement is that Labradoodles, Puggles, and so forth are bred for personal gain. Every AKC accepted breed, for example, are bred for a purpose. A Collie herds, a Rat Terrier hunts vermin, a Newfoundland does water rescue, all of them have a purpose. "Doesn't shed" or "Is really sweet" is not a reason to create a breed. So if there is a truly valid reason for needing a certain breed of dog that's just not out there, then by all means PLEASE take the logical steps to create that breed. But as far as I am concerned I don't see the purpose and a half beagle have pug(not to bash puggles, I know a sweet few).

So if a person needs to cross a breed for an actual and true purpose, does proper health testing and screening, doesn't bred for money, and is considered by many a "reputable" breeder- go for it. Otherwise, please go rescue the mixes your creating that don't have homes and don't add to that ever growing list.. please.

That was said very, very well and I agree 100%!

 

[Suzzie]

The puggle was originated with the purpose to develop the ultimate cute dog, after a survey of what pet owners wanted a cute dog to look like.

i think they failed on that one... i have never seen a cute puggle. They're very happy, friendly dogs, but they're butt ugly.

Many of the breeds recognized by AKC have strayed far from their original purpose.

perhaps. but most could also still go out and perform that duty, if need be.

and they still haven't nailed down the "non hypoallergenic" trait in "doodle dogs" either. Some don't shed, a lot do. I see hair as part of owning a dog, myself.

 

[LauraLeigh]

Originally Posted by corgi_love
Every AKC accepted breed, for example, are bred for a purpose. A Collie herds, a Rat Terrier hunts vermin, a Newfoundland does water rescue, all of them have a purpose. "Doesn't shed" or "Is really sweet" is not a reason to create a breed.

I am not sure if EVERY AKC breed has a purpose in that sense, I am not 100% sure so jump in if anyone knows, but the Bichon Frise for example, someone told me that means Cuddly Lap Dog or something like that? So I am assuming ( at the risk of making an ASS of myself ) that they were bred as Pets? Toy Poodles were also a breed developed as Companions (I do know the Standard worked as a water dog)

I am not saying I support BYB of "Doodles" (( Wow I HATE that name... ))but there are breeds who were developed as companions....

 

[HoundedByHounds]

IMO there was a NEED for companion breeds when most Toys were developed. The timeframe many like the Peke, the Pug, the Pap, the Bichon were developed in was a time of dogs WORKING and HUNTING. The dogs of those days were most definitely not companions and tho kept indoors at the master's feet (sometimes....just as often in kennels or outside) they were not there to be endlessly stroked and coddled.

Those days if you can imagine it....there were NO companion breeds.

There was a niche...

Can we say the same today? That all dogs today are working and there is a gaping yawning dearth of purely companion dogs for those of a gentler nature?