What the kennel property was used for.
- Thread starter ~Jessie~
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I find this to be tremendously inaccurate.
"Prove" her dogs? She has a few champions listed, but many of the breeding dogs appear to be untitled.
"All the required/needed health screenings"? I haven't seen ANY on the chins, and the ones on the goldens are suspect as she lists without including numbers (and a quick check of OFA and CHIC don't show all the tests she's claiming). She certainly hasn't responded to my questions regarding health certifications.
"Safe, clean, loving enviroment (sic)"? Now that's definitely open to interpretation. I would question the "loving" part - with that many dogs, it's unlikely that she even has hands-on contact with every dog every day. They can't possibly be true companions .. and she's already told us how they live in pens and raised cages. Personally I don't consider that "loving" .. it MAY be safe and it MAY be clean.
Any "persecution" you assume is here is due to her own choice of words and actions. She - and you, for that matter - chose to defend the use of a commercial breeding operation because of the legality of it. It was found that she has a dog business herself that holds similarities. This is all through what information SHE has given about herself (either on here or on other websites). Maybe she runs with a group who all feel that dogs are a business first and companions second - which is what you, also, appear to feel. But this forum is primarily people who love their dogs for reasons other than money and "prestige".
And that's just the way it is. We're not animal rights people, we're not in it for the money .. we have dogs because we love the companionship. And yes, it does irritate us to see others come on and defend a potential puppy mill (or whatever YOU wish to call it). That's not going to change, thank doG.
So, cockerc - what kind of breeding operation do you have?
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
"Prove" her dogs? She has a few champions listed, but many of the breeding dogs appear to be untitled.
"All the required/needed health screenings"? I haven't seen ANY on the chins, and the ones on the goldens are suspect as she lists without including numbers (and a quick check of OFA and CHIC don't show all the tests she's claiming). She certainly hasn't responded to my questions regarding health certifications.
"Safe, clean, loving enviroment (sic)"? Now that's definitely open to interpretation. I would question the "loving" part - with that many dogs, it's unlikely that she even has hands-on contact with every dog every day. They can't possibly be true companions .. and she's already told us how they live in pens and raised cages. Personally I don't consider that "loving" .. it MAY be safe and it MAY be clean.
Any "persecution" you assume is here is due to her own choice of words and actions. She - and you, for that matter - chose to defend the use of a commercial breeding operation because of the legality of it. It was found that she has a dog business herself that holds similarities. This is all through what information SHE has given about herself (either on here or on other websites). Maybe she runs with a group who all feel that dogs are a business first and companions second - which is what you, also, appear to feel. But this forum is primarily people who love their dogs for reasons other than money and "prestige".
And that's just the way it is. We're not animal rights people, we're not in it for the money .. we have dogs because we love the companionship. And yes, it does irritate us to see others come on and defend a potential puppy mill (or whatever YOU wish to call it). That's not going to change, thank doG.
So, cockerc - what kind of breeding operation do you have?
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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The objective was not to get everyone to agree 100% on everything. It was geared more toward educating those that that are sitting on the fence and watching but then tend to follow the 'masses' because all they ever hear is the one 'side'...a few of us have finally gotten tired of sitting on that fence and watching people take a beating.
I'm sorry, but no amount of "educating" it going to make me change my mind on mass commercial breeding. Most, if not all, of those dogs aren't health tested, which is an important issue to me. It should also be an important issue for anyone who wants a healthy, long-living pet.
Places like this are not good beeders. Even though it's perfectly legal. There are too many dogs and too many breeds. Also not any evidence of health clearances.
Places like this are not good beeders. Even though it's perfectly legal. There are too many dogs and too many breeds. Also not any evidence of health clearances.
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Chin clearances: Most breeders do not do anything but a general vet check including checking knees and listening for obvious murmurs. When I started in chin I did eye and heart certifications on a regular basis. That was through Dr. Martian (eyes) and Jacobs (hearts) I usually do it on a more random basis now and I wait until the dogs are a bit older (4-6 years). I have been fortunate and any Mitral valve has been in much older dogs 11+ years. Most people still choose not to do any "official" clearances in this breed.
I do not list any heart and eye clearances with OFA. It's a waste in my opinion and it encourages people not to look at the actual evaluation sheets which have the important information. I also don't use OFA for all of my orthopedic evaluations. I prefer alternate and more static means of hip evaluations, such as BVA, OVC and GDC (now defunct) I use OFA when I have too and only when I have too. PennHip is not convienant to this area or I would use them as well.
I also do clearances over. Dogs that pass at two (on hips and elbows) are redone at a later date (usually at 6-7). That is for my own information though as I want to see how certian lines and body styles degrade over time and to see if my opinion about certian passing scores holds true.
I do not list any heart and eye clearances with OFA. It's a waste in my opinion and it encourages people not to look at the actual evaluation sheets which have the important information. I also don't use OFA for all of my orthopedic evaluations. I prefer alternate and more static means of hip evaluations, such as BVA, OVC and GDC (now defunct) I use OFA when I have too and only when I have too. PennHip is not convienant to this area or I would use them as well.
I also do clearances over. Dogs that pass at two (on hips and elbows) are redone at a later date (usually at 6-7). That is for my own information though as I want to see how certian lines and body styles degrade over time and to see if my opinion about certian passing scores holds true.
When I looked up some of the past pedigrees in my line , I was appalled to see some " web sites " are using those lines . I'm sure that the original breeders are sad that they are selling pups via the internet for their profit . As to FK .... she denies owning the kennels when they were closed down a year ago for neglect . Yes, it was under another name . Yet she nows own them . Her puppy room looks adorable !!! But you can't judge a book by it's cover . I'm truly sorry that this has gone on so long ... but if it wakes up even one internet buyer , to me it's worth it !!!
See her website: http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62771
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Why would you need to know? So you can have something else entertain yourself with?
I don't have a website, and I rarely advertise (most are referrals and repeat clients), and then only locally when I do so because I prefer mine staying closer to home.
What kind of operation would you 'assume' it is?
I don't have a website, and I rarely advertise (most are referrals and repeat clients), and then only locally when I do so because I prefer mine staying closer to home.
What kind of operation would you 'assume' it is?
Why should she be ashamed to appologize to you, if you, through no evidence you have freely given us, are proven ethical or even mildly humane?
She was not a puppy peddler. Yet she is also fair hearted, if your program is vetted she, myself and many others would offer our appologies to the entire forum.
She was not a puppy peddler. Yet she is also fair hearted, if your program is vetted she, myself and many others would offer our appologies to the entire forum.
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Are you familiar with the Canine Health Information Center? If you aren't (and you don't seem to have any dogs listed with them, so I'm guessing you either aren't familiar or possibly don't have any dogs that you COULD list with them) then I suggest you take the time to peruse their website (http://www.caninehealthinfo.org/). This site has been organized with the concept of sharing information on the problems inherent in various breeds. Good, respectable, responsible breeders are behind this concept and doing their best to share information so as to breed the best health possible.
CHIC works with the PARENT BREED CLUBS and through the recommendation of those clubs sets the parameters for what evaluations each breed should have. This is where the recommendations for proper certification of eyes, patellas and hearts are listed for the Japanese chin. These are not recommended just on the whim of someone at CHIC - the push for testing in these areas comes from the PARENT CLUB.
If the parent club for the Japanese chin dogs thinks that certification on eyes, patellas and hearts is that important, you would think that any respectable breeder of Japanese chins would follow suit. There's a reason why this testing is requested - it's because this breed has a certain level of genetic problem in these areas.
You always have to wonder about any breeder who makes excuses for NOT doing the recommended testing in their dogs.
I will admit that the whole "encourages people not to look at the actual evaluation sheets" is a brand-new excuse to me. I have never heard such nonsense before! *LOL* It's amazing what excuses come up when direct questions are put to breeders. If the breeder wants the potential buyer to read the "actual evaluation sheet" all they have to do is hand it to them. Being listed on OFA is every bit as valid as posting a title through AKC or another registry. The only real excuse (in my opinion) for not listing clearances with OFA - a well-established registry that is easily accessible for people - is that the dogs either weren't examined by the proper specialist or that they didn't pass. And, of course, then the breeder has to make up SOME excuse for why they don't have their dogs listed on that site! Why else wouldn't a responsible, respectable breeder use a registry that publishes, for ALL the world to see, the information that shows the health background of their dogs?
There's just no logic to not using this registry - or, at least, using CHIC (which will accept OVC and some other forms of testing). Breeers should, above all else, be proud of the health in their lines. This should certainly be more important than titles. I've never met a decent breeder who didn't emphasize - with PROOF - the health certifications.
I don't know .. I'm still not seeing any qualifications that make me want to believe you. You have lots of excuses (for everything!) but underneath it's all emptiness ..
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
CHIC works with the PARENT BREED CLUBS and through the recommendation of those clubs sets the parameters for what evaluations each breed should have. This is where the recommendations for proper certification of eyes, patellas and hearts are listed for the Japanese chin. These are not recommended just on the whim of someone at CHIC - the push for testing in these areas comes from the PARENT CLUB.
If the parent club for the Japanese chin dogs thinks that certification on eyes, patellas and hearts is that important, you would think that any respectable breeder of Japanese chins would follow suit. There's a reason why this testing is requested - it's because this breed has a certain level of genetic problem in these areas.
You always have to wonder about any breeder who makes excuses for NOT doing the recommended testing in their dogs.
I will admit that the whole "encourages people not to look at the actual evaluation sheets" is a brand-new excuse to me. I have never heard such nonsense before! *LOL* It's amazing what excuses come up when direct questions are put to breeders. If the breeder wants the potential buyer to read the "actual evaluation sheet" all they have to do is hand it to them. Being listed on OFA is every bit as valid as posting a title through AKC or another registry. The only real excuse (in my opinion) for not listing clearances with OFA - a well-established registry that is easily accessible for people - is that the dogs either weren't examined by the proper specialist or that they didn't pass. And, of course, then the breeder has to make up SOME excuse for why they don't have their dogs listed on that site! Why else wouldn't a responsible, respectable breeder use a registry that publishes, for ALL the world to see, the information that shows the health background of their dogs?
There's just no logic to not using this registry - or, at least, using CHIC (which will accept OVC and some other forms of testing). Breeers should, above all else, be proud of the health in their lines. This should certainly be more important than titles. I've never met a decent breeder who didn't emphasize - with PROOF - the health certifications.
I don't know .. I'm still not seeing any qualifications that make me want to believe you. You have lots of excuses (for everything!) but underneath it's all emptiness ..
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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I'm not making an assumption - I asked you a direct question instead. But you seem to not want to answer it .. hmmm ..
There's always a curiousity as to what kind of people post the types of rhetoric that you have recently posted. Those who are defending the legal rights of breeders to breed mass quantities and/or sub-standard dogs (which you are defending, directly or indirectly) often seem to hold some of the characteristics of those they are defending.
And if I WERE to assume, it would have to be based on your posts to date because you are evidently uneasy about sharing information.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
There's always a curiousity as to what kind of people post the types of rhetoric that you have recently posted. Those who are defending the legal rights of breeders to breed mass quantities and/or sub-standard dogs (which you are defending, directly or indirectly) often seem to hold some of the characteristics of those they are defending.
And if I WERE to assume, it would have to be based on your posts to date because you are evidently uneasy about sharing information.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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I'm not making an assumption - I asked you a direct question instead. But you seem to not want to answer it .. hmmm ..
There's always a curiousity as to what kind of people post the types of rhetoric that you have recently posted. Those who are defending the legal rights of breeders to breed mass quantities and/or sub-standard dogs (which you are defending, directly or indirectly) often seem to hold some of the characteristics of those they are defending.
And if I WERE to assume, it would have to be based on your posts to date because you are evidently uneasy about sharing information.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
There's always a curiousity as to what kind of people post the types of rhetoric that you have recently posted. Those who are defending the legal rights of breeders to breed mass quantities and/or sub-standard dogs (which you are defending, directly or indirectly) often seem to hold some of the characteristics of those they are defending.
And if I WERE to assume, it would have to be based on your posts to date because you are evidently uneasy about sharing information.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
To your first statement, I would have to say it is because of the Oath's I have taken to protect ones legal rights to freedom, life, property, etc. I would be lying to myself and everyone else if I don't do what I swore to do...there is no room for my moral and ethical feelings when making some of the split decisions I have to sometimes make.
And your 'assumption' could be right to a certain degree and only because I value my privacy and right to choose when it comes to what little personal time I have in my life and how I choose to spend it. The only ones that have a need to know are my mentor, my clients, and my 'real' friends. All of them are happy with my choices and that is all that matters to me.