what is this? fear, or ??

[DeeDee]

Hello all
as I said I got a dog who the vet said is probably a mix of a small dog such as chihuaua and a border collie, possibly some welsh corgi. She is okay at home and can be very affectionate, a few particulars-- she is interested in what's going on, she doesnt typically sit back and observe much but she is always coming to check out what we are doing, cooking, etc. and wants to somehow be in on things. she has good hearing, more than other dogs I've owned, any sound and her ears perk forward and she also is veyr outdoor oriented, noticing as per usual, every little thing, grass, smelling flowers, stopping if she sees a bird and will stare intently. She is smart, learned new tricks easily. My problem is that after i got her home started to see a pattern, growling a deep growl soemtimes at passersby. she snapped at the groomer so we did not end up doingthat, but he said it was because she was new from the pound and needed time to relax before being groomed. at the gas station the other day, she had a total fit, actually acted downright aggressive barking and snarling at the attendant. As soon as he left she calmed down and seemed content that she'd done her job. She has never been that way to us, but this morning when I played with her at home a bit, she was getting overexcited and did not bite, but did mouth me, and seemed a bit too worked up.
Can anyone advise about this behavior- does it seem fear based, or just plain weird- is it workable or a big red flag?

 

[Doberluv]

It's workable but it is a red flag and you need to get a qualified behaviorist in to help you with this. It's too much for Internet help I believe. Be sure that who you get is reputable and does NOT use harsh punishment to treat this but uses gentle, "brain work" ways to fix this. Punishment can exasperate the problem and cause you to think she's better and then one day, whamo! She bites someone.

When she lashed out and everyone retreated, she found out that that works to get them to go away. She is going to need to be conditioned to the idea that only when she is calm and "nice" will she get what she wants....for the person to go away or stop grooming or whatever. Then that person, or that procedure.... over time, gradually is going to need to become a good thing and not a bad thing to chase away. It is probably fear based. But do get professional help.

 

[DeeDee]

Doberluv,

I talked with a few different trainers to find out how they work. your opinion??
One uses a remote collar that isnt painful but gives a tickle and dogs dont like the feel, he uses that in training out bad behaviors. He said he would not respond harshly bc her aggression is fear based and mostly a bluff to keep people away- he notcied her wagging tail at same time she was barking, t hat he felt meant it's a not veyr nice game she learned to keep people away.
He worked with her for a free session and did well with her- but is too expensive (of course!)

The other person is alot less expensive but she said for the first lesson she would use a choke collar that is a chain, I dont like that idea, but then again, I'm not a dog trainer. She wouldnt tell me really what her idea is how she's going to work with her, she said she needs to meet her first, but I would have to buy a choke collar and leather leash and a certain kind of treats before the first lesson. I didnt understand why her regular leash wouldnt be okay- it's veyr sturdy and not too long.

If I had the money I like the first one he seems to go to the root of why shes' aggresive, and explained difference bw working with a out and out aggressive dog, and a dog whos fearful, and that you have to use different approaches. The second trainer said it doesnt matter WHY the dog's aggressive, you just have to train it out of them, regardless of reason or how the dog is thinking.
The first guy said that being harsh with a fearful dog will make it worse, but second person claims the reason why, it doesnt matter, dog needs to know to stop it.
What's your thoughts on this, or anyone? I have to either find someone to work with her asap or give her away, as sweet as she is w us, we need to be able to have people over without her doing that.
thanks so much!!

 

[Doberluv]

Both of these trainers are relying on aversives to STOP....to stamp out behavior. Behavior is simply a sign. (I don't say symptom because symptoms are things only the subject is aware of) The behavior is a communication or a by-product of a catylist or an underlying psychological issue. By causing avoidance in a dog.....avoidance of an aversive (electric shock, mild though it may be) or a punishing yank on a strangle collar, the dog will learn to stop the communication/behavior. But this will do NOTHING to work through the underlying issue. Very often, dogs superficially trained this way regress or will lash out at something without warning somewhere down the road. You want him to really be OK with the things people do. If trainers do the things these two are talking about, the dog will not only NOT learn to be OK with life, but will have one more thing to worry about added on top of his already severe stress. Do you see what I mean?

That trainer who says it doesn't matter what the reason, IMO is wrong. The one who said it is mostly a bluff is using, IMO a human-like thought process, explaining that the dog is coniving and working out logically in his mind how to keep from doing what is wanted of him. Yes, he has learned that it works to make people back off. Cause and effect. The wagging of a tail does not necessarily mean a happy dog. It can mean a nervous, submissive, defensive dog, a dog who has learned through reinforcement to act this way. He's learned it just the same way dogs learn anything....by getting a pay off for it. It may have been necessary to his mind to survive, depending on how he was treated in the past. He needs to learn new ways to be reinforced and learn to trust people. Causing pain and fear will not teach him to trust people.

To use aversives on such a dog IMO is a HUGE mistake. Most eduated trainers and behaviorists advise to NEVER use aggressive, punishing means to treat an aggression problem. Strangle collars, shock collars are aversives. The dog is working to avoid an unpleasant outcome rather than learning new ways to view the world and along with that, new behaviors or signs that he is viewing his world in a more favorable light. Then the behaviors or signs that he is happy and well adjusted will fall into place. You don't want to put a bandaid on something which is so broken inside. It will fester and come out again.

If you give the dog away, you are giving the problems to someone else who may well handle this inapproprately. The dog may well be put to sleep when he has an opportunity to be counter conditioned/desensatized and learn trust and a new way to accept his world. If you can control and manage him so that no one is in danger, that would be something vital to do while you are getting someone qualified to help you. These two trainers, to my understanding of canine behavior do not fit the bill.

Here: I'll copy and paste part of Sam's post to someone else...links to trainers:

Here's the SFSPCA link read down the page to find the free behavior help line
http://www.sfspca.org/behavior/index.shtml

If you check around that site you can find a list of dog trainers from all over who have graduated from that VERY prestigious, well thought of program. Here's that link:
http://www.sfspca.org/academy/referral.shtml

If you can't find one right near you, you could try contacting the one closest to you and asking if they know of someone good closer to you.

Discuss things with the trainers first, find out their plan, like you did. Training and curing aggression problems takes some brains and thought. There are tricks to use which are in line with canine learning behavior.

In the meantime, practice nothing in life is free a little bit. Get your dog to see you as his provider. Don't feed his food in a bowl, but hand feed in exchange for a few tricks; sit, down, come, shake....mouthful by mouthful. Have him sit for the things he likes and wants; going outside, a toy, a pat or affection from you. Work on obedience using motivation and reward. Distract him from anything you don't want him to do and re-direct him to something where he can be reinforced. Don't use force; Ie: grabbing for his collar, manipulating him into a position. Slowly desensatize him to the triggers which upset him. If he doesn't like strangers, turn them into good things....from a distance. Reinforce him for acting calm when he sees someone from a comfortable distance. (praise/treats) If he acts snarky, don't let him know that that is what is driving someone away. And don't pay attention to him. Wait until he is calm and then back off as a reinforcer for his calmness if he is in a situation which is closer than his comfort level. Avoid situations which are likely to irritate him and take them one step at a time, breaking them into parts and working at a comfortabe distance or intensity to the dog. Reinforce baby steps. Keep him on a leash if he is apt to fly off the handle. Manage while you work with him. Be consistant and confident.

These ideas are in NO WAY replacement for getting a good, certified, gentle trainer/behaviorist. This information is lacking and will not substitute real, personal observation and help. But stay away from people who depend on punishment rather than teaching a dog or working through the underlying issues. Aversives used on a defensive, fearful dog will only make matters worse.

Let us know what you decide to do and I do hope you'll stick with him. He may be a lovely companion once he finds out that people are to be trusted and things they do are not a big deal...he may well get so he has no reason to lash out because his view will completely change. It may take some time and will take intelligent, thoughtful, training with a brain.....and not by avoidance. Get him motivated to be engaged with you.

Best wishes. Do keep us posted. (sorry for the long post)

 

[DeeDee]

thanks for all the great input..I feel this dog has a sweetness, and a real loyal nature somehow, but it comes out in feeling overly protective. I am unfortunately already attached, very sweet personality. I DID notice only in last day or two that the growling is a bit less, actually didnt growl in a copule situations, (yay!!)...I was not able to afford really either one, so for now I am using gentle patient teaching, and when the growling happens I give a quick sharp short word of correction, and then praise for obeying.
I'll let you know. Like I said great wonderful dog with us, but we need the dog to also be at least tolerant of outsiders, we cannot live in a bubble. I am proud of the progress made already by the little rascal!!
will let you know as time goes by...