What is the best method of....

[oose]

obedience training?

Hi, I am new to your forum and do not know the general consensus on training.

Treat training, Marker training, clicker training, purely positive training, choke collar, pinch collar, e-collar, halite, whistle, toy......

I know some of these methods are the same but I am only wondering what people think.

Again nice to meet you all

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

It depends on the dog.

I prefer the most positive route possible. Most dogs do best with a combination of + reinforcement for the most part, with lots of rewards with food, toys, and praise, along with small judicious amounts of mild negative markers such as a verbal "Ah ah" or "uh oh", and the occasional light collar correction.

 

[whatszmatter]

I vote for Marker training

 

[oose]

I vote for Marker training

with or with out correction?

 

[Zoom]

It really varies what works best from dog to dog, but the general concensus as far as the forum goes is that positive methods are better. This means few to no collar corrections, and quite a few people frown upon using correction collars of any sort.

 

[dr2little]

with or with out correction?

Correction is a VERY broad term, as are consequence and punishment. In your original post, many of the methods that you asked for an either/or were one in the same.
Marker training is what clickers are all about. I love this method. This positive reinforcement method paired with a verbal negative marker (in certain circumstances to let the dog know when they're headed in the wrong direction) works extremely well. It has also been proven to be a quick (50% faster learning rate) and an effective method for training, desensitizing and in dealing with behavior issues if used correctly.

I don't believe in or ever use any intentional physical correction. This is one reason that I never use aversive collars such as choke chains, pinch/prong collars or shock collars. These aversive tools create an all to easy and common setting for poorly timed correction whether intentional or inadvertant. Control, when needed can be attained with pain free tools like no pull harnesses and newtrix collars, though I'm all for training first whenever possible without the use of special tools.

Although I work with extreme cases, I see no need or use for physical punishment in training at all. Consequence to me simply means a predictable cause and effect exchange, it does not ever have to mean anything physical.

So I guess to sum it up I would go with (from your original list) -

Marker trainer (click and treat - which is faded quickly)
with verbal negative markers.

By the way, during an Ian Dunbar seminar the three methods (positive only, positive with negative verbal marker and positive with positive punishment, (leash corrections and such) were demonstrated. The positive method with negative verbal marker was far and above the most effective method of the three. Postive only made for confusion and took considerably longer than with a verbal negative marker, and positive with positive punishment had the dogs shutting down..too affraid to throw new behaviors for fear of correction.

I have, over many years, used all three methods as well and find that positive reinforcement with verbal markers to be the most effective method that I have ever used. This method carries the least risk of negative effects, is extremely versitile - and is FUN as all get out ....I'll never go back!

 

[oose]

It really varies what works best from dog to dog, but the general concensus as far as the forum goes is that positive methods are better. This means few to no collar corrections, and quite a few people frown upon using correction collars of any sort.

Correct me if I am wrong....but isn't obedience....

Correcting your dog for something you do not want them to do and praising them for something you want them to do?

How does one correct without a correction collar? Do you not need both positive and negative for training to work? Not trying to jump on you....I have only heard this before and it concerns me.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

What a great post, and a learning experience for me, Dr.2, really enjoyed it.

 

[GSDluver4lyfe]

It depends on the dog.

I prefer the most positive route possible. Most dogs do best with a combination of + reinforcement for the most part, with lots of rewards with food, toys, and praise, along with small judicious amounts of mild negative markers such as a verbal "Ah ah" or "uh oh", and the occasional light collar correction.

I agree 100%!!! All dogs are different.

I like the attitude of positively trained dogs, tail is always wagging and willing to do anything. My cousin who has Ryot's brother uses more negative training methods on his dog and it has really hidered his drive building. This dog gets corrected for EVERYTHING (and mind you the dog is only 9.5 months old) and is scared to "misbehave" while doing bitework. He will just sit there and you can tell he wants to play but doesnt want to get corrected. He is also very handler sensitive and looks terrified all the time.

Ryot on the other hand is doing really well with training and is ALWAYS happy. He never got corrected for jumping (on me), for walking in front of me, barking, nothing. I do use mild corrections now that he is older and do use a prong, only because I train in drive and he gets so crazy tha without it he would be unmanageble. Correcting a dog as a puppy will destroy their confidence. I WANT my dog to be happy and their is a time for corrections (if needed), not often, and not for stupid stuff. JMO

Dogs can be trained through pure compulsion but that leads to an unstable, fearful dog, IMO. If you review old Schutzhund videos (or any training videos) you can definately see what I am talking about when I refer to the dogs attitude when its pure compulsion to a more positive based training.

 

[dr2little]

Correct me if I am wrong....but isn't obedience....

Correcting your dog for something you do not want them to do and praising them for something you want them to do?

No, absolutely not. Providing an alternative default behavior works better and faster than physically correcting. Correcting a dog who had not been taught what is expected is the way things used to be done. This method has been found to be unnecessary and ineffective.

How does one correct without a correction collar? Do you not need both positive and negative for training to work? Not trying to jump on you....I have only heard this before and it concerns me.

What IS a correction collar? If you're referring to a choke collar then as I said above, they are unnecessary and in my opinion and in the opinion of many other trainers/behaviorist, they are also dangerous and inhumane.

 

[GSDluver4lyfe]

Correct me if I am wrong....but isn't obedience....

Correcting your dog for something you do not want them to do and praising them for something you want them to do?

How does one correct without a correction collar? Do you not need both positive and negative for training to work? Not trying to jump on you....I have only heard this before and it concerns me.

Dogs are opportunist. They do what works for them. MEaning they will work for a reinforcer (treat, toy, praise whatever your dog likes) or to avoid a correction. You do not need physical corrections to ensure that your dog will listen to you. At first you must reinforce every behavior but as time goes ont he dog doesnt get reinforced for each bahavior. Then they begin to work for the OPPORTUNITY of gettign the reinforcer, they dont know when its coming but know their is a possibility. It is actually proven that dogs work better for the POSSIBILITY of a reinforcer. Dont know if that makes any sense.

 

[oose]

What IS a correction collar? If you're referring to a choke collar then as I said above, they are unnecessary and in my opinion and in the opinion of many other trainers/behaviorist, they are also dangerous and inhumane.

A correction collar in my opinion would be a choke collar, pinch collar, e-collar...

I am not trying to advocate the use of them but rather trying to understand alternatives. I do not understand how a dog knows what "no" is without some sort of negative connotation.

Where is the motivation? Only learning please do not take offensively

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

How about this.

We prefer to tell the dog what to DO, and reward him for doing so,

rather than tell the dog what NOT to do, and punish him for doing so.

 

[dr2little]

How about this.

We prefer to tell the dog what to DO, and reward him for doing so,

rather than tell the dog what NOT to do, and punish him for doing so.

Exactly!!! As I said above, teaching an alternative INCOMPATIBLE competing behavior to the problem behavior and then rewarding THAT. For example - instead of kneeing a dog in the chest or delivering a collar correction for jumping up, you turn your back, ask for a sit - then REWARD for compliance. Only paying attention for a sit, as jumping up is done (mainly) for attention. No correction necessary and it actually works much faster.

 

[oose]

How about this.

We prefer to tell the dog what to DO, and reward him for doing so,

rather than tell the dog what NOT to do, and punish him for doing so.

Yes I understand that and I totally agree. What if you tell you dog to down and he breaks a down or if you tell your dog to come and he does not come. Do you repeat the command until it happens.

I think there is a big diffence between punishing and correcting. Correcting them would be telling them they are wrong and punishing would be making them do something because they dod something wrong. For example you correct your kids by telling them they did something wrong you punish them by grounding them or sending them to their room ( does not work for me they like theor room...lol).

 

[dr2little]

A correction collar in my opinion would be a choke collar, pinch collar, e-collar...

I am not trying to advocate the use of them but rather trying to understand alternatives. I do not understand how a dog knows what "no" is without some sort of negative connotation.

Where is the motivation? Only learning please do not take offensively

I was being a bit silly in asking what a correction collar is. It's just one of my pet peves (not directed at you ) when trainers tell their clients that a choke chain is called a "training collar" or a "correction collar". I call em like I see em. Choke chains Choke, Pinch collars Pinch and Shock collars Shock...all are horrible in my opinion.

 

[oose]

Exactly!!! As I said above, teaching an alternative INCOMPATIBLE competing behavior to the problem behavior and then rewarding THAT. For example - instead of kneeing a dog in the chest or delivering a collar correction for jumping up, you turn your back, ask for a sit - then REWARD for compliance. Only paying attention for a sit, as jumping up is done (mainly) for attention. No correction necessary and it actually works much faster.

Interesting! So if the dog jumps like crazy ranting and raving you turn your back and wait for it to sit? What do you do when the dog bits on your sleeve or jumps on a kid? Again only asking?

 

[dr2little]

Yes I understand that and I totally agree. What if you tell you dog to down and he breaks a down or if you tell your dog to come and he does not come. Do you repeat the command until it happens.
In this case I would first assume that I haven't properly trained the behavior with distance, duration and distraction. It takes time and patience. I NEVER repeat myself when asking for behaviors once they have been learned, this is not the way to add speed of compliance. I do many position changes, keep sessions short and use removal of reward to speed compliance with great success.

I think there is a big diffence between punishing and correcting. Correcting them would be telling them they are wrong and punishing would be making them do something because they dod something wrong. For example you correct your kids by telling them they did something wrong you punish them by grounding them or sending them to their room ( does not work for me they like theor room...lol).

Of course, kids and dogs are like gorilla's and jelly beans....Ok, not really..but I don't train dogs with human reasoning. Correcting can be a simple as not rewarding for the wrong behavior and punishment can actually be the same. It just truly NEVER has to mean something that physically hurts. Our human need to inflict pain in order to send a message is...well..just that, very human. It doesn't translate well in the learning process of canids.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Interesting! So if the dog jumps like crazy ranting and raving you turn your back and wait for it to sit? What do you do when the dog bits on your sleeve or jumps on a kid? Again only asking?

No, I think you are way on the other side of "just asking".

Let me save you some time. You won't convince any of us that it's necessary to use punishment or force to train dogs.



Not even to do advanced exercises like retrieving and carrying articles.

 

[oose]

No, I think you are way on the other side of "just asking".

Let me save you some time. You won't convince any of us that it's necessary to use punishment or force to train dogs.



Not even to do advanced exercises like retrieving and carrying articles.

Not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am only asking questions, is that wrong?