What do you think of this site?

[Amalthea]

I have been doing a lot of reading about wolves and wolfdog crosses on the web... I have quickly realized that the wolfdog is one of the more polarizing types (I don't wanna say "breeds" because they aren't really a breed)...with opinions ranging the whole spectrum, from fierce protection of the wolfdog as a companion, to equally balanced viewpoints giving the negative and positive aspects of a wolfdog, to condemnation of the entire type (regardless of the amount of wolf content) ... although I think none of the pages upset me more than this one:

http://www.leerburg.com/wolfcross.htm

I have not written anything to Mr. Frawley, as I feel it would be pointless. If you read the e-mails and his responses near the bottom, you'll see that he is not interested in any positive viewpoints on wolfdogs, and in fact, any such e-mails are answered with insults... his favorites being that all wolfdog owners are "dumb rednecks", "idiots", "crazy", etc.

While I understand his concern over the safety of children around wolfdogs, I also feel that any person who cannot present their viewpoint and argue their stance to those who take the opposing side without resorting to name-calling doesn't have a very valid point to begin with.

I have found that most wolfdog sites encourage people not to own one, and discourages the breeding of them, in a respectful and intelligent fashion, not in a "beat you over the head with it" way of Frawley's website. Their information is for responsible owners and tries to give an unbiased view of the wolfdog, the reasons why they are problematic in the wrong enviornment, and the dangers that can accompany owning such an animal.

I am not one of those wolfdog owners who will say that "mine would never hurt a fly, everyone is wrong"... in fact, I admit I was clueless when I got Moro. I had no idea of the major differences in wolf and dog behavior, and I have learned as much as I can since. I also will say that I do not promote or encourage breeding of wolfdogs. They are too often given away to homes that are not prepared, and end up in rescues (if they are lucky) or euthanized. This site (chazhound) has taught me a lot about responsible breeding and the fact that if people would think of the good of their animals and refrain from breeding, and spay/neuter we wouldn't have so many homeless dogs in this world...that goes for dogs of ALL types and breeds, not just wolfdogs.
...one of my biggest concerns with Moro is that she is frightened and easily upset around small children. This is not something I'm happy about, but I don't feel it's a reason to put her down either. I think that we can be responsible owners and keep her within our yard (not difficult, we've had no problems with escape and believe me, she's tried!!) and on leash while walking. (We allowed her to run off leash when she was younger, but this has stopped a long while ago and she never goes walking without a leash now). Most importantly, she is supervised...someone is at home with her all day, every day.

I also couldn't resist but to look up Mr. Frawley on chazhound and see if there's been any talk of him here before, and lo and behold, there was a controversy over his dog training videos in one of the threads where he apparently encouraged "choking a dog out until it goes unconscious" in order to train it. Of the posts I read, I saw that certain members said he had changed his views and apologized for the way he had treated some of his GSDs in the past. I am guessing that he hasn't changed his views of wolfdogs... since the site labelling them as "kid killers" is still up. It just boggles my mind that someone who makes a living training dogs can have such a severe viewpoint on the wolfdog... despite the fact that lower content wolfdogs often show more dog than wolf behavior, and the majority of websites I've read agree that there's no real way to tell if a hybrid wolf will display more dog-like or wolf-like characteristics.

I know this will probably just re-start the wolf hybrid debate, which I've seen in a few older posts that I searched on chazhound, and the controversy over whether they can be good companions.... that's not what I was hoping for, but I know it's probably going to be the result. I just would like to know... regardless of your opinion on the wolfdog... does it seem like an overly extreme stance to run a website labelled "KID KILLERS" that states ALL wolfdogs are dangerous and all owners of wolfdogs are stupid?? I just can't help but think that if the offending dog on this page was changed to "PIT BULLS" rather than wolfdogs, pittie and dog lovers alike would have eaten this guy alive by now

BTW, from reading through his e-mails and responses at the bottom of the page, I saw that he has "10 outside dogs and 5 inside dogs"

I know there are exceptions and places which have the capacity for that many, but my goodness... I haven't even been a chaz member for that long and I know already that if some new member posted that they had this many dogs, they would be highly questioned by the other chaz members about the conditions they live in to be keeping so many!!

 

[lakotasong]

All I've got to say is go figure, it's Leerburg.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Nevermind, I read the artical now.

 

[ronnie]

wolfdogs

hi i am ronnie i own 11 czechoslovakian wolfdogs, i find that most people who write about wolfdogs only see the down side, high wolf content dogs like all other large breeds are potentally dangerous (in the wrong hands) the czechs are bred down from the wolf and alsation by many generations and must not be confused with f1 f2 ect crossings, i have lived with wolves and wolfdogs for many years these dogs with experienced dog people are no problem, i spent 2 yrs working with these dogs before i owned one, most fault is with breeders selling to inexperienced people..regards ronnie

 

[~Jessie~]

Ugh, I hate Leerburg =/

 

[Spiritus]

Mr. Frawley is very opinionated - I think we all know that though I just read the article and although I may not like the way he puts things, he does have valid points, and a lot of what he says makes sense, and is even varifyable.

I don't believe that wolves should be crossed with dogs. I am disgusted by people who do intentionally cross the two. They are two very different animals... I also do NOT believe that every wolf/dog cross should be put down just because they are wolf x dog. People who own crosses of the two need to be extra careful and extra responsible. They must really understand what it is they own.

When I think of wolf/dog mixes, I think of an animal that is trapped between two worlds, torn in two directions. I love wolves, and don't believe there is a nobler animal out there, and I love dogs. I don't believe their two worlds are compatible. This is just my opinion.

 

[makenzie71]

Maybe later I can stomach my way through that article, but as it is I didn't get through the second paragraph before my stomach began turning in anger. The man's a biased moron. I guaruntee you that there are more pitbull attacks in any given area over any given amount of time, by percentage of populace, than there are wolf hybrid attacks. I'm willing to bet that labradors have killed more people than domesticated wolf hybrids. I also guaruntee you that blood percentage has nothing to do with how likely a dog is to attack.

I've had several hybrids, and I currently have a 90 grey/10 husky mix that is less likely to attack a child than the world's most aggressive lollipop. In my experience the richer the blood content the least likely the dog is to be aggressive, on any front...it has to do with what Spiritus said, in my opinion, that it's instincts are torn between two worlds. A richer mix is far more likely to apply wilderness role playing to the human/animal social order, and is far more capable of supressing natural instincts. A leaner mix is more likely to mingle the lack of lifetime responsibillity with domesticated emmotional tendencies and apply that to the human/animal social order, and the most powerful wilderness instincts get free range of their body unchecked...results in a canine equivelant "punk". This is what I've experienced personally with the large number of animals I've dealt with over time, but it's never an exact science. I've seen domesticated fullbloods and 10/90 splits alike be babies just as well as I've seen similar mixes be completely unmanageable.

Maybe later, if I can stomach my way through that article, I'll be able to get down to the point where he admits that his views are conjured up only in his own little close minded, biased universe and bear no relation to real life.

I'd hate to see hybrid breeding stop...if it hadn't happened to begin with none of us would have dogs. What it needs is rational people doing it.

 

[Miakoda]

Mr. Frawley is very opinionated - I think we all know that though I just read the article and although I may not like the way he puts things, he does have valid points, and a lot of what he says makes sense, and is even varifyable.

I don't believe that wolves should be crossed with dogs. I am disgusted by people who do intentionally cross the two. They are two very different animals... I also do NOT believe that every wolf/dog cross should be put down just because they are wolf x dog. People who own crosses of the two need to be extra careful and extra responsible. They must really understand what it is they own.

When I think of wolf/dog mixes, I think of an animal that is trapped between two worlds, torn in two directions. I love wolves, and don't believe there is a nobler animal out there, and I love dogs. I don't believe their two worlds are compatible. This is just my opinion.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. I find it a shame that people get enjoyment out of caging a wild animal for life & refusing it the life it truly wants & needs to live all for the sake of their own ego & perverseness. A wild animal has NO business being kept as a pet. It's not fair to live to be forced to live a life that deprives them from being what they truly are. And don't even get me started on people who breed hybrids. IMO, it's one of the biggest money making shemes out there right along with all the rest of the "designer" mutts. Also, I think people who breed these dogs are on some sort of sick power trip by being able to dominate a wild animal.

I absolutely LOVE wolves. However, I love watching them/observing them in their NATURAL habitat acting like wolves. I don't enjoy seeing them lie in a kennel/cage all day being forced to live a common house pet.

As for people who own wolf hybrids b/c they rescued them, then that's another story. However, great care & great responsibility must be taken b/c no matter how sweet & loving (although I've never seen a wolf hybrid act like a true dog in the sense that it follows humans around all day & tolerates a lot from kids) they are, they harbor much stronger "wild" instincts & behaviors than do domesticated dogs we know today.

 

[makenzie71]

and does not equal very

However, great care & great responsibility must be taken b/c no matter how sweet & loving (although I've never seen a wolf hybrid act like a true dog in the sense that it follows humans around all day & tolerates a lot from kids) they are, they harbor much stronger "wild" instincts & behaviors than do domesticated dogs we know today.

Spoken like someone almost completely lacking in experience in the matter. Mine have always been exposed to children and Makenzie will tolerate anything they dish out (and he's had some hefty dishes). He'd follow me (though only me) to the end of the earth without fail and he pines when neglected contact. Though 90% grey wolf, he's 100% dog. Makenzie is a 10th generation hybrid.

Socks, my last hybrid, was a 7th generation 50/50 (timberwolf and husky) and was similar, though far more attached to me.

A wolf's instincts aren't very different than that of a domesticated dog. The only times you see the differences in the domesticated world are when it comes to breeding and eating...breeding requires a very special and very supervised enviroment to promote specific lines or to prevent potential conflicts with domesticated animals (not too much different than any other dog), and when it comes to eating their portions have to be monitored if fed regularly because the dog's natural isntinct is to eat until there's nothing left to eat (survival tactic in the wild...doesn't know when the next meal will be). You'll find this stuff with many other breeds, too...but everything else is breed generic.

Though I understand that many people seek these animals out simply because they're "wolves"...that's why I got my first one, and the very reason many people get started with them...but many of us keep getting them for completely different reasons. They're amazing animals and if they've been raising propperly they'll never fail to impress. I will always have one for several reasons...mostly due to intellegence and personallity. I refrain from telling most people what Makenzie is until after they actually know him...and he's a big dork most of the time...hard to "ego trip" over that.

 

[makenzie71]

Oh and I gotta say San (Princess Monoke) and Miyazaki are both pimps.

 

[Miakoda]

Spoken like someone almost completely lacking in experience in the matter. Mine have always been exposed to children and Makenzie will tolerate anything they dish out (and he's had some hefty dishes). He'd follow me (though only me) to the end of the earth without fail and he pines when neglected contact. Though 90% grey wolf, he's 100% dog. Makenzie is a 10th generation hybrid.

Socks, my last hybrid, was a 7th generation 50/50 (timberwolf and husky) and was similar, though far more attached to me.

A wolf's instincts aren't very different than that of a domesticated dog. The only times you see the differences in the domesticated world are when it comes to breeding and eating...breeding requires a very special and very supervised enviroment to promote specific lines or to prevent potential conflicts with domesticated animals (not too much different than any other dog), and when it comes to eating their portions have to be monitored if fed regularly because the dog's natural isntinct is to eat until there's nothing left to eat (survival tactic in the wild...doesn't know when the next meal will be). You'll find this stuff with many other breeds, too...but everything else is breed generic.

Though I understand that many people seek these animals out simply because they're "wolves"...that's why I got my first one, and the very reason many people get started with them...but many of us keep getting them for completely different reasons. They're amazing animals and if they've been raising propperly they'll never fail to impress. I will always have one for several reasons...mostly due to intellegence and personallity. I refrain from telling most people what Makenzie is until after they actually know him...and he's a big dork most of the time...hard to "ego trip" over that.

Am I an expert of wolf hybrids? Nope. Am I an inexperience newbie who's never seen one? Nope. And I was speaking in generalizations, not specifics regarding yours.

However, I must ask....since it's ok to rob a wolf of it's natural life in the wild & force it to live a "happy" one under the domination of a human owner, then I guess you think it's perfectly fine for me to own a tiger? Or a lion? Or hell, an elephant for that matter? It's fair for me to force an animal to live a life it was never born or designed to live?

(where's the pucking emoticon)

 

[makenzie71]

However, I must ask....since it's ok to rob a wolf of it's natural life in the wild & force it to live a "happy" one under the domination of a human owner, then I guess you think it's perfectly fine for me to own a tiger? Or a lion? Or hell, an elephant for that matter? It's fair for me to force an animal to live a life it was never born or designed to live?

You should do some research into the origins of the domesticated dog...you might find yourself shocked to know where they all came from. I'll give you a hint; it's not Mars.

You, like many other uninformed/misinformed opponents, make it sound like, just because the animal has blood in it that came from or was decended from an animal that was at one time wild, the dog's living in some schizophrenic, unhappy, caged world where nothing makes sense and nothing works right. I can tell you that you're completely wrong. Makenzie has no idea what wild is...and isn't torn between being wild and domesticated. He has no longing desire to romp free in the Wyoming wilderness, chasing caribou and being half starved most of the time. He wants to sit on his porch, where he gets fed and loved regularly, and to occasionally bark at and play with cows. He doesn't sit up at night wishing his great great great great great great great great grandmother had never wandered into a hunting camp and cozzied on up to the camp fire between eight very startled hunters.

Just so you know, there's a difference between a "tiger" and a hybrid...you may not realize that. First and foremost, no feline species has ever been domesticated...be it lion or calico. Secondly, elephants have been domesticated for well over a millenia. Third, the second a canine of any species is born into the human society, that is the life it's meant to live.

http://www.photoartclub.net/makenzie2.jpg

Man...just check out that savage, cold blooded, schizo, unhappy, torn-between-two-worlds killer hahahaha

 

[SSBGSCKSKLDLSW]

I am not going to lock horns with anyone. Just thought I'd throw in I know the most wonderful lab/wolf cross. He's one of the nicest animals I've ever met. Loves kids, cats, other dogs, and to go swimming with us down at the creek. He doesn't go run up in the forest and eat deer. He's a lap dog. He knows no different.

 

[makenzie71]

I am not going to lock horns with anyone. Just thought I'd throw in I know the most wonderful lab/wolf cross. He's one of the nicest animals I've ever met. Loves kids, cats, other dogs, and to go swimming with us down at the creek. He doesn't go run up in the forest and eat deer. He's a lap dog. He knows no different.

lol completely off-topic but how the hell do you sign in with that name? Does it an abbreviation of some sort?:lol-sign:

 

[Amalthea]

Wow, I didn't realize this topic had been bumped back up!

I do understand the feelings people have about wolf hybrid breeding...and I agree to some extent, that it isn't right to take a wild wolf and breed it with a dog. But much of the hybrid population isn't a result of breeding a wolf straight from the wild to a dog. It's the result of wolf blood that was introduced several generations back and often the parents of wolf hybrids (or wolfdogs, whichever term you prefer) were mixes of dog and wolf genes themselves. I think that a high content wolfdog can be more prone to certain problems in a human enviornment, but that doesn't mean that they all will. And it certainly doesn't mean that every animal with wolf blood, high or low content, is gong to turn into a dangerous killer simply because of their genetic background.

My problem with the whole issue is that people get angry and say it isn't right to breed them in the first place, but that doesn't change the fact that they ARE being bred! It may not be right, but I don't see them getting any less popular. In fact, I'd say their popularity has likely increased in the last few years, despite laws against owning them in some states. So what choices do these unique animals have, now that humans have decided to create them? They can't be released into the wild, because for one thing, they have never learned to live in the wild and they would be undoubtedly attracted toward returning to human neighborhoods, having learned that humans will give them food. They also can't be released into the wild because their mixing with the wild wolf population is something most enviornmentalists agree should NOT happen. Some of them will be lucky enough to be rescued and live in a rescue area where they will have sufficient space and protection. Some people will tell you that they can never live in a home enviornment, they will never be a family pet, they will undoubtedly turn on you...I think wolf hybrid owners should be aware of the potential danger, but I see no reason why the ones with a gentle temperament cannot live with a family. Isn't that a better fate than being put to sleep? (or shot, as Ed Frawley advocates in one of his nasty e-mails)? To me the arguement over whether they should be bred or not is pointless...they're here regardless of whether it was right or wrong, and now people have a responsibility to take care of them! When it comes right down to it, this is the same arguement people have with pit bulls and breed specific legislation... there is no reason why a friendly pit bull who ends up in a shelter should be put to sleep, just because it's a pit bull. I feel the same way about wolf hybrids.

 

[SSBGSCKSKLDLSW]

lol completely off-topic but how the hell do you sign in with that name? Does it an abbreviation of some sort?:lol-sign:

It was short for my pets at the time. It goes dogs (oldest to newest), then horses (oldest to newest), then my rodents (oldest to newest). I don't actually resign in every time though. I'm always logged in.
SSBGSCKSKLDLSW.

Dogs: Shelby, Spanky, Bandit
Horses: Greylite, Shatefah, Cougar, Kity, Sparky, Katy,
GP: Lily
Mouse: Dumbledore
Hamster: Lord Voldemort
Rats: Scabbers, Wormtail

Since then my rat family has grown though. I have a Luna Lovegood, a McGonogal, and a Draco.

 

[makenzie71]

I think it's hard to say that the breeding and reintroduction of wold blood should be stopped. Though the content and quality is wildly variable due to the unknowledgeable contribution, many people are struggling to establish a new breed from the mixes (and at least two established breeds have been founded in the last century from the crosses). It goes back to my first post here...what it needs is intellegent people

 

[Amalthea]

It was short for my pets at the time. It goes dogs (oldest to newest), then horses (oldest to newest), then my rodents (oldest to newest). I don't actually resign in every time though. I'm always logged in.
SSBGSCKSKLDLSW.

Dogs: Shelby, Spanky, Bandit
Horses: Greylite, Shatefah, Cougar, Kity, Sparky, Katy,
GP: Lily
Mouse: Dumbledore
Hamster: Lord Voldemort
Rats: Scabbers, Wormtail

Since then my rat family has grown though. I have a Luna Lovegood, a McGonogal, and a Draco.

lol, another Harry Potter fan I see, cool

 

[SSBGSCKSKLDLSW]

lol, another Harry Potter fan I see, cool

I'm really not the biggest fan. I enjoy the books and movies but I couldn't think of any names for my rodents and I was reading Harry Potter at the time. I've just stuck with the theme for lack of better names.