What do you think of these "Top Alpha" dog techniques??

[Laurelin]

*Games of fetch or play with toys must be started and ended by the human.

Sure, unless you're so irritated with the dog you give in. ... oh... oops...

:rofl1::rofl1::rofl1:

So true... I was thinking I was the only one that gave in to the demand fetch.

So yeah, basically all I try to do is instill the rules I want them to follow and that's all anyone needs to do. That's really what it comes down to for me- I will set the rules that *I* like for my dogs. It doesn't matter to me if other people would find my dog's behavior at home annoying, it works for me. I sure do have my pet peeves too.

As far as strong willed dogs go, it depends on the individual. Mia is very strong willed and the others are not (Nard is a little selective hearing though). You can verbally correct Mia for something and she will stop a minute then go right back to doing what she was doing. I had a video of her where she was digging in my backpack and I told her to cut it out. She left then came back and started again. Rinse repeat over and over.

It does cause a problem with people that give in to her a LOT. My dad for example can't get her to stop throwing the ball at him. He's babysat her before and then ended up calling me because she was acting out so bad. She is a lot calmer around me because she knows I put rules into place. Mia just needs more guidance of 'this is good. this is bad. Don't do that, here do this instead.' etc. Summer is naturally good and just wants to be a good dog. Mia is not. She has a very one track mind too so if she gets a bad idea she is bound and determined to follow through. She will go at the same task for hours if she sets her little mind on something. Screw what her owner thinks. She's gonna keep trying. I don't feel like I do anything too special with her, just set boundaries. She still tests them all the time. And she lets me know her opinions on everything too.

 

[stafinois]

What about the breeds like Rottweilers, Cane Corsos, Dobermans, etc. Every website I go to read info about them, like their temperament, the websites say that they require firm leadership because they are strong willed. At first I always thought it meant doing all those dominant techniques. So if it's actually not, what do they mean?? Is it the NILIF technique or what????

Presence and yes, utilization of different levels of NILIF. I think that these breeds tend to be pushier than others. With my first Malinois, I had to do more to maintain his manners than I've had to with other dogs. It wasn't because he was trying to take over the world, he was just rude and needed to be kept in check. If you gave him an inch, he would take a mile.

 

[ihartgonzo]

Stafinois, I forget that a lot of people don't understand how to be assertive and clearly communicate with dogs. I grew up with German Shepherds and Rottweilers so it's just second nature. Then I see people being bossed around and picked on by their own dogs, and it's hilarious but also sad. I do think you have to have a certain presence to control a powerful dog, no matter what training techniques you use. It's great because having a dog like that forces you to be a more confident & self-assured person... but not so great when people can't step up to their dog's needs. I know the most spoiled, fat, huge Rottie ever who boarded where I worked for years and he could pick out the workers who didn't know what they were doing. He'd relentlessly humiliate them, steal their leashes, rip their shirts, knock them down, and laugh about it. He never tried that with me, and I never scruffed him or tried to alpha roll him like they did.

I was talking to some one at the dog park, and an older man who's always there and has nothing better to do than preach about dominance and Cesar Millan (while his Aussie lays there for hours, doing nothing but guarding his ball from the other dogs) interjected, saying: "Well OBVIOUSLY you don't know how to dominate your dog, he's the pack leader, just look at him (Fozzie is standing in the baby pool)! I bet you let him hump you, too!"

 

[AllieMackie]

All of these "dominance" techniques are ridiculous for all of the reasons folks have already mentioned. This one, however, makes me eyeroll the most:

*Games of fetch or play with toys must be started and ended by the human.

This is hilarious to me. From day one I have taught my dog that when he is bored, he is to direct to his toy box. Because of this, he's not destructive in the least. When he's bored, he finds a toy. Sometimes he plays on his own, and sometimes me brings it to me to tug/fetch/interact with him.

I ignore him sometimes, but imagine if I completely negated that and told him that when he's bored, that's TS for him? :rofl1:

Pass. I'd rather a dog that informs me when he'd like some mental/physical stimulation, especially since I own a herding breed.

 

[ihartgonzo]

This is hilarious to me. From day one I have taught my dog that when he is bored, he is to direct to his toy box. Because of this, he's not destructive in the least. When he's bored, he finds a toy. Sometimes he plays on his own, and sometimes me brings it to me to tug/fetch/interact with him.

But, but.... calm/submissive dogs aren't destructive! They're perfect! They just lay there doing nothing, not moving, with their ears back. Like a perfect stuffed dog. Why would you want a dog to PLAY with you? That's dominant. :l

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

But, but.... calm/submissive dogs aren't destructive! They're perfect! They just lay there doing nothing, not moving, with their ears back. Like a perfect stuffed dog. Why would you want a dog to PLAY with you? That's dominant. :l

Hilariously the most trustworthy dog, the only one allowed loose without supervision, in my house is Backup. The one who never stops g-g-g-going. Go figure!

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

It wasn't because he was trying to take over the world

You fool.

 

[Halee.R]

What about the way you talk to your dog? Cesar Millan would always say to talk to your dog like your talking to a human. And when your giving your dog commands, say them if a very firm tone. Otherwise they'll ignore you and walk away.
Do you guys agree with this??

 

[Danefied]

What about the way you talk to your dog? Cesar Millan would always say to talk to your dog like your talking to a human. And when your giving your dog commands, say them if a very firm tone. Otherwise they'll ignore you and walk away.
Do you guys agree with this??

Nope.
Why the firm tone? Heck, half the time the cues I give are non-verbal. Hand to my stomach means heel. Not sure how I can convey that in a firm tone - maybe I need to firm up my abs? LOL

As adept as dogs are at hearing and picking up on non-verbal cues, there is no way anyone is going to convince me that you need a “firm†tone to communicate clearly with them.

I give all verbal cues in a happy tone of voice, because that is what I am - happy to be interacting with my dogs.

 

[oakash]

I hate it when Suzie is tired and actually is at my side or behind me. Partially because I don't walk in a straight line most of the time and I keep on tripping over her, and because I like seeing her. Plus even when she does pull after a smell, at least I'm aware of it before the leash is out of my hand. If she was beside me and decided to pull, it would slip out of my hand because I don't hold it very tightly.

I'm actually about to start working on her focus too, because she doesn't look at me enough, and when she does she is easier to give commands too.

 

[Taqroy]

Nope.
Why the firm tone? Heck, half the time the cues I give are non-verbal. Hand to my stomach means heel. Not sure how I can convey that in a firm tone - maybe I need to firm up my abs? LOL

As adept as dogs are at hearing and picking up on non-verbal cues, there is no way anyone is going to convince me that you need a “firm†tone to communicate clearly with them.

I give all verbal cues in a happy tone of voice, because that is what I am - happy to be interacting with my dogs.

All of this. Plus I like to vary my tone so that if I do happen to say "Sit!" versus "SIT" versus "sit" my dog will still plant their butt on the ground. Whispered commands are fun.

ETA: I just realized that I actually save my firm/stern voice for when I REALLY want the order to be obeyed. If I'm calling Mu off another dog or a squirrel my command will be much sharper and more intense than if I'm calling her off a piece of kibble. I'd rather reserve that sort of response (because they all respond quickly to that) for emergencies.

 

[Red.Apricot]

What about the way you talk to your dog? Cesar Millan would always say to talk to your dog like your talking to a human. And when your giving your dog commands, say them if a very firm tone. Otherwise they'll ignore you and walk away.
Do you guys agree with this??

I'm not yet in a position where I can give firm commands to humans and expect to have them obeyed. :rofl1:

But seriously, I don't use a firm tone unless I am (for some reason; often unrelated to Elsie) irritated. When I'm happy, she's happy, and does what I ask. When I'm upset, she melts, and her response isn't as crisp.

I just trained her to respond to a happy tone, because I'm happy while we're training.

 

[Danefied]

FWIW, I would not be getting any training or behavioral advice from Cesar Millan. He’s a slick talking charlatan who while he is great at marketing himself, is not so great at communicating with dogs regardless of what it may look like on TV.

 

[corgipower]

I do think that if you are frequently "dominating" or intimidating the dog, it may learn to back off quicker when you get after it for something. But it isn't the act of e.g., going through the door first that does anything

Or they may learn that their human is scary and unpredictable and decide to defend themselves.

Why on earth would I want to intimidate my dog?

What about the breeds like Rottweilers, Cane Corsos, Dobermans, etc. Every website I go to read info about them, like their temperament, the websites say that they require firm leadership because they are strong willed. At first I always thought it meant doing all those dominant techniques. So if it's actually not, what do they mean?? Is it the NILIF technique or what????

I don't know quite how to describe the technique. It's just having the right mindset...like facing an obnoxious human child...when you're a seasoned human parent you learn not to take nonsense from anybody. You don't need to get loud or nutso, it's just about calmly being in control of the situation. If I say Sophie's name in a certain way she lays out with all four feet up. I've never disciplined her more than pulling her collar when she gets too close to the rat cage. But she accepts my authority...waaay better than the human kids in fact.

I use the NILIF on puppies all the time. It teaches them early that the way to get what they want is to give me what I want.

As for the breeds you list, I think it's more along the lines of those dogs are strong. And big. And if they pull on the leash or jump on people or grab hold of things, they can do more damage, so it's good to have pretty solid obedience control. Also, those are breeds who tend to have protective instincts more than other breeds and obedience control can be helpful in preventing an inappropriate bite.

But they're still just dogs and they don't require different training methods.

But, but.... calm/submissive dogs aren't destructive! They're perfect! They just lay there doing nothing, not moving, with their ears back. Like a perfect stuffed dog. Why would you want a dog to PLAY with you? That's dominant. :l

:lol-sign:

You fool.

:rofl1:

What about the way you talk to your dog? Cesar Millan would always say to talk to your dog like your talking to a human. And when your giving your dog commands, say them if a very firm tone. Otherwise they'll ignore you and walk away.
Do you guys agree with this??

Oh, yes. Because I talk to humans in monosyllabic sentences all the time.

My dogs ignore me and walk away regardless...but I do believe Morgan is out to take over the world.



It would be a better world with her in charge.

 

[Dizzy]

I think people often mistake needing to be assertive with being dominant. Assertiveness is totally different to dominance.

 

[Danefied]

Oh, yes. Because I talk to humans in monosyllabic sentences all the time.

:rofl1::rofl1:
Don’t forget the firm tone too

I tell you what, if anyone tried to talk to me by saying “tsst, hey†and snapping their fingers and pointing at me, they would get to see my not so calm and assertive side.

 

[Paige]

All of this. Plus I like to vary my tone so that if I do happen to say "Sit!" versus "SIT" versus "sit" my dog will still plant their butt on the ground. Whispered commands are fun.

ETA: I just realized that I actually save my firm/stern voice for when I REALLY want the order to be obeyed. If I'm calling Mu off another dog or a squirrel my command will be much sharper and more intense than if I'm calling her off a piece of kibble. I'd rather reserve that sort of response (because they all respond quickly to that) for emergencies.

I do that too. My firm voice only ever comes up with ANYONE when danger is potentailly around.


I personally prefer to train my dog in a positive way because I find it more fun, he finds it more fun and I don't own a dog to add more stress to my life. I own him to bring joy and if our interactions are 99% positive... well thats a pretty good thing to me.

 

[Doberluv]

Or they may learn that their human is scary and unpredictable and decide to defend themselves.

Why on earth would I want to intimidate my dog?



I use the NILIF on puppies all the time. It teaches them early that the way to get what they want is to give me what I want.
As for the breeds you list, I think it's more along the lines of those dogs are strong. And big. And if they pull on the leash or jump on people or grab hold of things, they can do more damage, so it's good to have pretty solid obedience control. Also, those are breeds who tend to have protective instincts more than other breeds and obedience control can be helpful in preventing an inappropriate bite.

But they're still just dogs and they don't require different training methods.



:lol-sign:




:rofl1:



Oh, yes. Because I talk to humans in monosyllabic sentences all the time.

My dogs ignore me and walk away regardless...but I do believe Morgan is out to take over the world.



It would be a better world with her in charge.

That's perfectly logical. That's how you train men too.

 

[yoko]

I know I'm a little late to this.


*Walking through the door first and make them come after you.
I usually do this but that's just how it happens I don't plan on it or consciously do it.

*Eat your meal first, make sure they watch you eat, and then feed them.
I do this but just because I usually eat dinner right when I get home and Yoshi has a strict be calm before and after you eat.

*Do not walk around your dog when he/she is lying down. Instead, step over your dog or gently move him out of the way.
If I'm up Yoshi is up this isn't something I have ever really run into.

*Do not let your dog walk ahead of you when you have him/her on the leash.
She usually walks in front. If we are out on a walk it's her walk not mine. Also I see her better if she is in front instead of behind me or to my side.

*When you leave the house or the room, even for a minute, ignore the dog for a few minutes upon your return.
She usually goes room from room with me. When I get home from work she gets excited and I let her get a little excited. I let her out of her crate and out to go to the bathroom. If she wants to be happy/excited about that then she can. She isn't jumping up on me or barking she's just doing her happy zooms.

*If you establish eye contact with the dog, the dog must avert his gaze first. If the human averts first this reinforces the dog’s higher power position. Tell the children not to have staring contests with the dog, as if they avert or blink first, it will only reinforce, in the dog’s mind, that he is Top Dog.
I love making eye contact with Yoshi. I don't keep track of who looks away first and I'm not going to stare her down just to make myself feel 'dominant'

*Games of fetch or play with toys must be started and ended by the human.
For me this is the big one... I'll be honest and say Yoshi turned 7 this year. She's my heart dog and I'm terrified of the day I start seeing her slow down. For me if Yoshi wants to play we are going to play. It may only be one or two throws or a minute or so of roughhousing but we will play and I'm going to enjoy seeing her run around/play like a crazy dog. I makes me sad that barring any disease or accident I've still got half/over half of my life left after my heart dog, Yoshi is gone and I'm not really interested in wasting the time I have with her trying to dominate her.

*You are the one who greets newcomers first, the dog is the last to get attention (the pack leader is the one who greets newcomers and lets the rest know when it is safe to greet the newcomer).
When we are out I'll hold on. She doesn't jump as much as she use to but if someone puts their face in hers she'll do little hops and I don't want her to bust anyone's lip. If someone comes to our house she goes in her crate until they are in and settled

 

[Romy]

I'm not yet in a position where I can give firm commands to humans and expect to have them obeyed. :rofl1:

But seriously, I don't use a firm tone unless I am (for some reason; often unrelated to Elsie) irritated. When I'm happy, she's happy, and does what I ask. When I'm upset, she melts, and her response isn't as crisp.

I just trained her to respond to a happy tone, because I'm happy while we're training.

I'm in the non-firm voice command camp. lol. One of my dogs is a retired SD and the other is training as his replacement. I use a combination voice/hand signal while training, eventually they will respond to either in the same way.

When they're working I use nearly 100% hand signals or extremely quiet whistling signals (like for turning right or left where they're walking alongside me and can't see my hands). My dogs both have excellent hearing. If they're outside with the doors and windows closed, I can speak their names in a normal conversational voice, and they'll turn and look at me through the window. If I gesture for them to come, they'll run over to the door. If they can hear that well I've got bigger training problems than how firm my voice is if they decide to blow me off.

Also, I do yell or snarl sometimes. That's just my inner primate, and it's mostly due to me being crabby once in a while. It's not necessary for making them listen by any means.