What do think of this diet on Oprah today?

[Barb04]

My friend saw Oprah today and is now going to fee cooked meat, rice, carrots, peas, potatoes, etc. Do you feel dogs will need other supplements in their diet if they're not going to get dog food?


"Dr. Marty Goldstein, author of The Nature of Animal Healing, is an expert on holistic pet medicine and the veterinarian caring for Oprah's dog Sophie, who is suffering from kidney failure. Based on Dr. Marty's advice, Oprah says she now feeds her dogs a mixed diet of chicken, beef, lamb, brown rice, potatoes and carrots.

Dr. Marty says most people feed their dogs diets that go against their animal nature. He says a dog that eats only dry food is like a person who eats nothing but carbs!

Dr. Marty says the best thing for a dog to eat is raw meat. Dr. Marty says his own dog, Danny, ate this diet and lived to be 19! "Danny lived on fresh cooked meat and brown rice and carrots, peas, lamb, potatoes. You know, real food. What did they eat in nature? They ate real food."

 

[Red_ACD_for_me]

Hey Barb, I just posted a thread on the show to
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52132

 

[midnightbirdgirl]

My friend saw Oprah today and is now going to fee cooked meat, rice, carrots, peas, potatoes, etc. Do you feel dogs will need other supplements in their diet if they're not going to get dog food?


"Dr. Marty Goldstein, author of The Nature of Animal Healing, is an expert on holistic pet medicine and the veterinarian caring for Oprah's dog Sophie, who is suffering from kidney failure. Based on Dr. Marty's advice, Oprah says she now feeds her dogs a mixed diet of chicken, beef, lamb, brown rice, potatoes and carrots.

Dr. Marty says most people feed their dogs diets that go against their animal nature. He says a dog that eats only dry food is like a person who eats nothing but carbs!

Dr. Marty says the best thing for a dog to eat is raw meat. Dr. Marty says his own dog, Danny, ate this diet and lived to be 19! "Danny lived on fresh cooked meat and brown rice and carrots, peas, lamb, potatoes. You know, real food. What did they eat in nature? They ate real food."

Dogs, like humans, only need supplements if their diet is lacking.
They get more nutrition from what Oprah suggests than dog food, and even more from just raw meat. Dogs are carnivores, not omnivores.
MBG

 

[squirtsmom]

Very interesting.

 

[FoxyWench]

the closest to natural for a dog to eat would be the prey diet. rember in nature dogs wouldnt have acess to carrots, potatoes, or any veggies for that matter. nor would they have acess to fire to cook it with.

the only vegies a wild canid would have acess to would be that thats already partially predigested in the stomach of their prey animal.

 

[showpug]

I posted about this in the Fire Hydrant and should have posted here.

Anyway, I was just so happy to see a vet on national television not recommending Science Diet!

 

[Herschel]

Dogs, like humans, only need supplements if their diet is lacking.
They get more nutrition from what Oprah suggests than dog food, and even more from just raw meat. Dogs are carnivores, not omnivores.
MBG

Dogs are omnivores.

 

[showpug]

Dogs are omnivores.

Well the vet on Oprah claimed that they are carnivores. I guess that will always be the ongoing controversy...

 

[DanL]

I think they are more like "opportunistic omnivores", meaning, if they have no access to meat, they will eat vegetation. Their preferred food is meat. Their teeth and digestive tract are designed for meat. You don't see starving wolves or coyotes raiding corn fields, you see them raiding flocks.

 

[whatszmatter]

No, they are carnivours, they are not obligate carnivores like cats. They certainly aren't omnnivores

 

[Doberluv]

If they're only eating meat and not bone, don't they need a calcium suppliment?

Yes, I agree. They're non-obligate carnivores.....digestive system, jaws (no horizontal movement or grinding ability) teeth, etc are carnivorous. Behaviorally, they're like omnivores because they're opportunists and scavengers and will eat other things, but their primary diet is meat, which makes them a carnivore, along with their anatomical make-up.

 

[FoxyWench]

dogs are most definatly carnivores, their systems are not desighned and cannot properly digest raw vegitable matter unless its been prebroken down, their systems cant break down the celulouse so even when they eat vegitation, there not getting anything out of it.
in wild canids the only truly digestable plant matter they would get would be that already partially digested in their preys stomach.

true onmivores have both cutting and grinding ability to their jaw, dogs jaws are made up in a way they can only bite down, their jaw doesnt move side to side for the grinding movmenet needed to break down vegatable matter.

they will eat it...
it usually comes out essentilaly in the same way it goes in.

 

[midnightbirdgirl]

they will eat it...
it usually comes out essentilaly in the same way it goes in.

Ain't that the truth!!
MBG

 

[RD]

If they're only eating meat and not bone, don't they need a calcium suppliment?

Yes, I agree. They're non-obligate carnivores.....digestive system, jaws (no horizontal movement or grinding ability) teeth, etc are carnivorous. Behaviorally, they're like omnivores because they're opportunists and scavengers and will eat other things, but their primary diet is meat, which makes them a carnivore, along with their anatomical make-up.

Yes, they do need some source of calcium if they aren't eating any bone. That would be my biggest concern with a homecooked diet as opposed to raw, it'd be more work to supplement. Still, done right, I think a diet of fresh cooked foods would be as good, if not better than top-notch kibble.

 

[midnightbirdgirl]

Dogs are omnivores.

Here is an article on that myth:
Myth: DOGS ARE OMNIVORES.

This is false. Dogs are carnivores, not omnivores. Dogs ARE very adaptable, but just because they can survive on an omnivorous diet does not mean it is the best diet for them. The assumption that dogs are natural omnivores remains to be proven, whereas the truth about dogs being natural carnivores is very well-supported by the evidence available to us.

1.) Dentition

Look into your dog or cat's mouth. Those huge impressive teeth (or tiny needle sharp teeth) are designed for grabbing, ripping, tearing, shredding, and shearing meat (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 258.). They are not equipped with large flat molars for grinding up plant matter. Their molars are pointed and situated in a scissors bite (along with the rest of their teeth) that powerfully disposes of meat, bone, and hide. Carnivores are equipped with a peculiar set of teeth that includes the presence of carnassial teeth: the fourth upper premolar and first lower molar.
Contrast this with your own teeth or the teeth of a black bear. A black bear is a true omnivore, as are we. We have nice, large, flat molars that can grind up veggies. Black bears, while having impressive canine teeth, also have large flat molars in the back of their mouth to assist in grinding up plant matter. Dogs and most canids lack these kinds of molars. Why? Because they don't eat plant matter. Teeth are highly specialized and are structured specifically for the diet the animal eats, and the difference between a bear's teeth and a dog's teeth (both species are in Order Carnivora) demonstrates how this can be (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pgs 260.). To see a visual comparison of the teeth of a dog to the teeth of a black bear, please click here. One can logically ask: If a dog (or cat or ferret) has the dentition of a carnivorous animal, why do we feed it pelleted, grain-based food?

2.) Musculature and external anatomy

Dogs (and cats) are equipped with powerful jaw muscles and neck muscles that assist in pulling down prey and chewing meat, bone, and hide. Their jaws hinge open widely, allowing them to gulp large chunks of meat and bone. Their skulls are heavy, and are shaped to prevent lateral movement of the lower jaw when captured prey struggles (the mandibular fossa is deep and C-shaped); this shape permits only an up-and-down crushing motion, whereas herbivores and omnivores have flatter mandibular fossa that allows for the lateral motion necessary to grind plant matter (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pgs 258-259.). Consider this quote from the previously-cited Mammology text:
"Canids, felids, and mustelids subsist mainly on freshly killed prey. These families show correspondingly greater development in 'tooth and claw'; they also have greater carnassial development and cursorial locomotion." (pg 260)

This translates to a simple fact: everything about a dog or cat's body design says they were designed for a carnivorous, hunting lifestyle geared toward killing prey. However, humans have done some major tinkering with this body design (resulting in varying sizes and conformations), but we have done nothing to change the internal anatomy and physiology of our carnivorous canines.

3.) Internal anatomy and physiology

Dogs and cats have the internal anatomy and physiology of a carnivore (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a highly elastic stomach designed to hold large quantities of meat, bone, organs, and hide. Their stomachs are simple, with an undeveloped caecum (Feldhamer, G.A. 1999. Mammology: Adaptation, Diversity, and Ecology. McGraw-Hill. pg 260.). They have a relatively short foregut and a short, smooth, unsacculated colon. This means food passes through quickly. Vegetable and plant matter, however, needs time to sit and ferment. This equates to longer, sacculated colons, larger and longer small intestines, and occasionally the presence of a caecum. Dogs have none of these, but have the shorter foregut and hindgut consistent with carnivorous animals. This explains why plant matter comes out the same way it came in; there was no time for it to be broken down and digested (among other things). People know this; this is why they tell you that vegetables and grains have to be preprocessed for your dog to get anything out of them. But even then, feeding vegetables and grains to a carnivorous animal is a questionable practice.

Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals. This places the burden entirely on the pancreas, forcing it to produce large amounts of amylase to deal with the starch, cellulose, and carbohydrates in plant matter. Thus, feeding dogs as though they were omnivores taxes the pancreas and places extra strain on it, as it must work harder for the dog to digest the starchy, carbohydrate-filled food instead of just producing normal amounts of the enzymes needed to digest proteins and fats (which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).

Nor do dogs have the kinds of friendly bacteria that break down cellulose and starch for them. As a result, most of the nutrients contained in plant matter—even preprocessed plant matter—are unavailable to dogs. This is why dog food manufacturers have to add such high amounts of synthetic vitamins and minerals (the fact that cooking destroys all the vitamins and minerals and thus creates the need for supplementation aside) to their dog foods. If a dog can only digest 40-60% of its grain-based food, then it will only be receiving 40-60% (ideally!) of the vitamins and minerals it needs. To compensate for this, the manufacturer must add a higher concentration of vitamins and minerals than the dog actually needs.

Is the dog an omnivore? Its dentition, internal and external anatomy, and physiology say it is not. Even its evolutionary history (discussed later) says the dog is a carnivore. So when people tell you the dog is an omnivore, ask: "What about this animal makes you think it is an omnivore?" Make them explain their position to you before you explain yours. Chances are they'll cite this next myth as "proof".



More here:
http://rawfed.com/myths/omnivores.html

MBG

 

[StealthDog]

From Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, 4th Ed., pp. 216-219:

DOGS AS OMNIVORES
The word carnivore can be used to indicate either a taxonomic classification or a type of feeding behavior. The order Carnivora is quite diverse and consists of 12 families containing more than 260 species. Omnivorous and carnivorous feeding behaviors are most common among members of the order Carnivora; however, the order also includes spcies that are herbivores (e.g. pandas).

EATING BEHAVIOR
Several researchers have examined the eating habits of wolves (Canis lupus), the nearest ancestors of our domestic dogs, and close relatives such as coyotes (Canis latrans). Both are opportunistic predators and scavengers, hunting and eating what is available regionally. Coyotes eat carrion and hunt rodents, other small mammals, birds, amphibians, and other species. In addition, they have been reported to consume droppings of herbivorous prey; domestic dogs will also readily consume herbivore feces. Regional ungulates such as buffalo, deer, elk, moose, wildebeest, antelope, and zebra are the natural prey of wolves. Viscera are considered the choicest part; therefore, partially digested vegetable material is a normal part of the wolf's diet. Both coyotes and wolves also eat plant matter such as fruits, berries, persimmons, mushrooms, and melons. Similarly, dogs are opportunistic eaters and have developed anatomic and physiologic characteristics that permit digestion and usage of a varied diet.

ANATOMY AND PHYSIOLOGY
ORAL CAVITY
The oral cavity functions to decrease the physical size of food for introduction into the rest of the alimentary tract. Decreasing the physical size of food creates particles small enough to pass through the esophagus and increases the surface area of the food, which enhances enzymatic digestion in the stomach and small intestine. Dogs have cutting canine teeth for ripping and tearing and molar teeth with large occlusional tables for crushing, which are associated teleologically with the capacity to use plant material. Dogs may fix large pieces of food with their paws in order to tear off small pieces with their cutting canine teeth, after which the food particle is advanced to the back of the oral cavity where it may be crushed by the molar teeth and mixed with saliva before being swallowed.

STOMACH
Wild canids typically eat large meals, usually infrequently, due to intermittent food availability. Dogs may consume their daily energy requirement (DER) in one or two large meals, ingested rapidly. This eating pattern means that the stomach must be able to expand markedly. On average, a medium-sized, adult domestic dog has the capacity to ingest 30 to 35 g of dry matter per kg body weight per day. However, the canine stomach can adjust, within limits, to accommodate the amount of food ingested and can hold 1 to 9 liters depending on the breed.

SMALL AND LARGE INTESTINE
The characteristics of the canine small intesting are consistent with those of animals that digest an omnivorous diet. The small intestine composes approximately 23% of the total gastrointestinal (GI) volume of dogs, vs. 15% for cats. The ratio of GI tract length to total body length is 6:1 for dogs, 4:1 for cats, 10:1 for rabbits, and as high as 20:1 for some herbivores. This anatomic relationship is consistent with ingestion of an omnivorous diet with intermediate digestibility (i.e., between low digestible herbaceous forages and highly digestible animal flesh). Dogs digest starch efficiently via pancreatic enzymes and mucosal disaccharidases.

NUTRIENT REQUIREMENTS AND METABOLISM
Much can be learned about an animal's nutritional requirements simply by analyzing its natural food source. True carnivores are limited to what is available from prey tissues such as skeletal muschle and liver to provide energy and nutrients, including protein, taurine, arginine, arachadonic acid, and niacin. Consequently, carnivorous animals (e.g. cats) developed more efficient pathways to use these nutrients, and have lost the ability or have a decreased ability to synthesize them from precursors. Being omnivorous and receiving a varied diet of plant and animal tissue, dogs maintained or improved the ability to synthesize nutrients from precursors. The differences lend more evidence to early evolutionary divergence and further support the premise that dogs are omnivores.

 

[StealthDog]

Dogs do not normally produce the necessary enzymes in their saliva (amylase, for example) to start the break-down of carbohydrates and starches; amylase in saliva is something omnivorous and herbivorous animals possess, but not carnivorous animals.

This is simply not true- dogs do produce amylase in their saliva, but cats do not. Dogs can produce salivary amylase in varying amounts, and will produce more when regularly fed a high-starch diet.

 

[StealthDog]

(which, when fed raw, begin to "self-digest" when the cells are crushed through chewing and tearing and their enzymes are released).

Why on earth would cells contain enzymes capable of causing "self-digestion"? That is a recipe for disaster. The enzymes responsible for digesting proteins, lipids, and carbohydrates are formed in the pancreas in a pre-enzyme form (called zymogens), that are released into the small intestine in response to the entry of food from the stomach. The enzymes aren't activated until they are cleaved by another enzyme (trypsin), which is also triggered to be released only when food moves into the small intestine (and is also controlled by the hormone cholecystokinin). The body needs very tight control over digestive enzymes because the enzymes aren't smart enough to know that they should digest food rather than their own body. There is no way that enzymes from food, raw or cooked, would be enzymatically active in the stomach. If you ingested active enzymes, they would be incredibly painful throughout the mouth and esophagus as they made their way down into the stomach, where the very low pH would rapidly de-activate them, then denature their proteins. Protein digestion doesn't occur until the small intestine- where the body's OWN digestive enzymes will be released to do the work.

As a side note, organophosphates (fertilizers like "chemlawn") can mess up the tight control that the body has over its pancreatic enzymes, causing the pancreas to prematurely release and activate them. The result is pancreatic necrosis. That's why they have those little signs telling you to keep pets and children off for a while.

 

[Herschel]

I think they are more like "opportunistic omnivores", meaning, if they have no access to meat, they will eat vegetation. Their preferred food is meat. Their teeth and digestive tract are designed for meat. You don't see starving wolves or coyotes raiding corn fields, you see them raiding flocks.

Thanks, Dan! That's a great way to phrase it.

If they need to, they will eat (and derive some nutritional value) from vegetation. I still vote for omnivore.

Apparently ShowPug was the only one to catch my point: its an on going controversy and if it were as easy as a lot of you think it is (look at the teeth, look at the teeth!) then an anatomist or a zoologist would have gotten it right a long time ago.

 

[Herschel]

Why on earth would cells contain enzymes capable of causing "self-digestion"? That is a recipe for disaster. The enzymes responsible for digesting proteins, lipids, and carbohydrates are formed in the pancreas in a pre-enzyme form (called zymogens), that are released into the small intestine in response to the entry of food from the stomach. The enzymes aren't activated until they are cleaved by another enzyme (trypsin), which is also triggered to be released only when food moves into the small intestine (and is also controlled by the hormone cholecystokinin). The body needs very tight control over digestive enzymes because the enzymes aren't smart enough to know that they should digest food rather than their own body. There is no way that enzymes from food, raw or cooked, would be enzymatically active in the stomach. If you ingested active enzymes, they would be incredibly painful throughout the mouth and esophagus as they made their way down into the stomach, where the very low pH would rapidly de-activate them, then denature their proteins. Protein digestion doesn't occur until the small intestine- where the body's OWN digestive enzymes will be released to do the work.

As a side note, organophosphates (fertilizers like "chemlawn") can mess up the tight control that the body has over its pancreatic enzymes, causing the pancreas to prematurely release and activate them. The result is pancreatic necrosis. That's why they have those little signs telling you to keep pets and children off for a while.

Good work, Stealth!

Just to clarify, cells DO contain enzymes capable of self-degradation, but they have nothing to do with digestion.

Look up "caspase".