Well Trained or Well Behaved
- Thread starter Linds
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Jack and Missy both fall in the "well-behaved" category.
Their house manners are absolutely impeccable - they don't steal things, they don't get up on the furniture they're not supposed to (ie tables, chairs, etc), they don't chew up my stuff, they don't have accidents in the house. They don't really even play roughly in the house, so there's not a concern about knocking anything over. Aside from Jack's selective reactivity he's perfect in public (the store, the park, people's houses,etc). We've spent significant lengths of time at my grandmother's house, and he's perfect there too - and seems to know that he's not allowed on the furniture!
However, I wouldn't say they're "well-trained". They know basic commands, walk nicely on a leash, etc - but nothing advanced.
Their house manners are absolutely impeccable - they don't steal things, they don't get up on the furniture they're not supposed to (ie tables, chairs, etc), they don't chew up my stuff, they don't have accidents in the house. They don't really even play roughly in the house, so there's not a concern about knocking anything over. Aside from Jack's selective reactivity he's perfect in public (the store, the park, people's houses,etc). We've spent significant lengths of time at my grandmother's house, and he's perfect there too - and seems to know that he's not allowed on the furniture!
However, I wouldn't say they're "well-trained". They know basic commands, walk nicely on a leash, etc - but nothing advanced.
It's hard for me to answer this, as I see "well behaved" and "well trained" as the same thing, I think it just varies based on what YOU train for.
I know plenty of dogs who have great manners, but they don't know a single formal command. Their owners haven't made the effort to teach them commands but did teach them to be polite to visitors, stay in their own yard, be calm and have self control, etc. Some people teach their dogs these things without even meaning to, by just living with them and spending time with them. Are they well-behaved or well-trained? Both, based on what their owner wants.
I also know plenty of dogs who know lots of commands, who compete in dog sports, but who have horrendous manners with people and in the house because they're kenneled/outside dogs or crated a lot, or because their owners just LIKE crazy dogs and don't want to effect their drive with teaching manners. Are these dogs well-behaved or well-trained? I feel that they are neither, because manners are an important part of training.
Personally, I want my dogs to be naturally obedient & well-mannered. Fozzie is ideal, to me. He has perfect manners around people and in the house, and he knows many commands & knows when to "turn on". That doesn't mean he's a robot, he just knows very well what I want from him and he knows the difference between playtime and chilltime. He also goofs off constantly, he has his sassy moments. But he is incredibly connected to me... I can just look at him, and he knows what I want him to do. I also feel that he TRULY understands what is "bad", as far as counter-surfing, getting into trash, etc. The time that he diarrheaed in my bath-tub, I feel, is proof of that! ( ; I can't even think of the last time he did anything "bad" and yet I've never yelled at him or corrected him. This is one of the reasons I LOVE clickers and force free training. I never force my dogs to do anything, so all of the behaviors I want are something that I capture or lure and convince them is the best thing in the world to do. It doesn't require me commanding them or cueing them or threatening them. So it seems like they're just naturally "well behaved", when really, I have trained them that acting the way I want them to is rewarding.
Gonzo is well behaved and well trained, but he does have his rare dumpster diving, bad dog moments! I can easily trace those incidents back to either stressful home situations or a lack of physical or mental exercise. I think a lot depends on the dog's intelligence and energy level, too. It's a lot harder for a high energy, high drive breed to contain their exuberance. It takes much more self restraint for Gonzo to not jump up on people he loves or pull on the leash or act out his excess energy than it takes Fozzie, because one is a high strung dog and one is a laid back dog.
I know plenty of dogs who have great manners, but they don't know a single formal command. Their owners haven't made the effort to teach them commands but did teach them to be polite to visitors, stay in their own yard, be calm and have self control, etc. Some people teach their dogs these things without even meaning to, by just living with them and spending time with them. Are they well-behaved or well-trained? Both, based on what their owner wants.
I also know plenty of dogs who know lots of commands, who compete in dog sports, but who have horrendous manners with people and in the house because they're kenneled/outside dogs or crated a lot, or because their owners just LIKE crazy dogs and don't want to effect their drive with teaching manners. Are these dogs well-behaved or well-trained? I feel that they are neither, because manners are an important part of training.
Personally, I want my dogs to be naturally obedient & well-mannered. Fozzie is ideal, to me. He has perfect manners around people and in the house, and he knows many commands & knows when to "turn on". That doesn't mean he's a robot, he just knows very well what I want from him and he knows the difference between playtime and chilltime. He also goofs off constantly, he has his sassy moments. But he is incredibly connected to me... I can just look at him, and he knows what I want him to do. I also feel that he TRULY understands what is "bad", as far as counter-surfing, getting into trash, etc. The time that he diarrheaed in my bath-tub, I feel, is proof of that! ( ; I can't even think of the last time he did anything "bad" and yet I've never yelled at him or corrected him. This is one of the reasons I LOVE clickers and force free training. I never force my dogs to do anything, so all of the behaviors I want are something that I capture or lure and convince them is the best thing in the world to do. It doesn't require me commanding them or cueing them or threatening them. So it seems like they're just naturally "well behaved", when really, I have trained them that acting the way I want them to is rewarding.
Gonzo is well behaved and well trained, but he does have his rare dumpster diving, bad dog moments! I can easily trace those incidents back to either stressful home situations or a lack of physical or mental exercise. I think a lot depends on the dog's intelligence and energy level, too. It's a lot harder for a high energy, high drive breed to contain their exuberance. It takes much more self restraint for Gonzo to not jump up on people he loves or pull on the leash or act out his excess energy than it takes Fozzie, because one is a high strung dog and one is a laid back dog.
Leo is a very well behaved dog now (it's true what they say about Labs 
). I started to notice a real difference when he was about 2.5 yrs old. He's very polite with people and dogs, never gets into anything and never chews anything anymore. I went to work one day and accidently left a bag of garbage on the kitchen floor, when I came home he hadn't touched it. Impressive for a dog that loves food and tries to eat all kinds of disgusting things when we're out.
He's not so well trained, I'm lax in that department. He knows the basics, walks very well on leash and his recall is pretty good but could be better.
I feel bad about it sometimes because I think he has the potential to learn all kinds of things. However, between working full time, looking after my elderly Mother and trying to get enough exercise for both of us, it just doesn't happen. The fact that I'm nearing 60 :yikes: and don't have the energy I used to doesn't help either.
). I started to notice a real difference when he was about 2.5 yrs old. He's very polite with people and dogs, never gets into anything and never chews anything anymore. I went to work one day and accidently left a bag of garbage on the kitchen floor, when I came home he hadn't touched it. Impressive for a dog that loves food and tries to eat all kinds of disgusting things when we're out.He's not so well trained, I'm lax in that department. He knows the basics, walks very well on leash and his recall is pretty good but could be better.
I feel bad about it sometimes because I think he has the potential to learn all kinds of things. However, between working full time, looking after my elderly Mother and trying to get enough exercise for both of us, it just doesn't happen. The fact that I'm nearing 60 :yikes: and don't have the energy I used to doesn't help either.
I would have to say that Cali is in the inbetween category for both. She is relatively well-behaved when it comes to people and other animals, but when it comes to manners (as in no "omg new person.. I'm gonna jump all over you and give you kisses"), she is slightly lacking. She's getting to the point where I could consider her well-trained, we just need to work on her "come" aswell as "stay".
That's why it was hard for me to answer too. In most all cases with dogs, good manners wind up being a trained thing, whether people are aware they're training them or not. Most cases. There are some dogs that are just so laid back, their personality is such that they, with very little input from their owner just have relatively good manners anyway. But most dogs, are told or shown this or that along the way...in their daily upbringing that winds up producing good manners. But that is training.
Ruger is both. He was a very well mannered puppy from the start, and began training straight off. He's got perfect natural manners with people... he never tried to jump on folk, has never been vocal, etc. But, he'll get into things if I leave him unattended! It's a bulldog thing lol
Jolene is well trained. She's a hyper spaz with NO concept of personal space... a bull in a china closet with no brain, unless following a direct command. I didn't shape her behaviour as a puppy... just let her be, and THIS is what I got lol She will also get into things if left unattended. She never made a habit out of jumping up on people, but she will rear up to the side of you and lick your hand.
Bukra is well behaved. He's never gotten into anything, has always had manners - because he's a Saluki and they're too stuck up to do those things LOL For a Saluki, he's also pretty well trained... He follows basic obedience commands.
Zealand is mostly well behaved. He's been a great puppy from day one... NEVER even attempted to take something that wasn't his (even while teething!), and can be left alone in the house or truck without touching anything. He's not too well mannered with strangers... he wants to jump up and give kisses, which we're working on of course.
Jolene is well trained. She's a hyper spaz with NO concept of personal space... a bull in a china closet with no brain, unless following a direct command. I didn't shape her behaviour as a puppy... just let her be, and THIS is what I got lol She will also get into things if left unattended. She never made a habit out of jumping up on people, but she will rear up to the side of you and lick your hand.
Bukra is well behaved. He's never gotten into anything, has always had manners - because he's a Saluki and they're too stuck up to do those things LOL For a Saluki, he's also pretty well trained... He follows basic obedience commands.
Zealand is mostly well behaved. He's been a great puppy from day one... NEVER even attempted to take something that wasn't his (even while teething!), and can be left alone in the house or truck without touching anything. He's not too well mannered with strangers... he wants to jump up and give kisses, which we're working on of course.
Desoto is well trained but not well behaved. He is DA but on the off chance he sees a dog in the distance when he is out with us on my parents property (always supervised) he will come and sit until the dog is gone, begrudgingly but very reliably. He is also very 'opinionated' but will stop barking if I tell him to 'hush' and put him in a down.
Radar is about half and half, he is still young. He is for the most part just naturally well behaved he is pretty chill for a terrier, not a mean bone in his body. He is really not all that into people he doesn't know, might give them a quick sniff but then he is over them. He could probably be better trained, he listens very well to the commands he knows, I just need to teach him more.
Radar is about half and half, he is still young. He is for the most part just naturally well behaved he is pretty chill for a terrier, not a mean bone in his body. He is really not all that into people he doesn't know, might give them a quick sniff but then he is over them. He could probably be better trained, he listens very well to the commands he knows, I just need to teach him more.
When you really think about it, do you think that having poor behavior...behavior you don't like means the dog is well trained? Or does it mean he's well trained in select or specified tasks only?
My idea a well trained dog includes not only heal, sit, stay, come, go precisely through an agility course, retrieve when hunting, etc, but it also very much includes not jumping up on a 85 year old woman, practically knocking her to the ground, or grabbing food off the counter, barking incessantly and bothering the whole neighborhood, knocking the window blinds off their brackets while going berserk at the people walking on the sidewalk out front. Behavior an owner can live with happily is not often achieved by no training. So, to me, well behaved and well trained are really one and the same.
My Doberman was well trained in obedience and agility. His behavior around home was good...well trained and some naturally well behaved behaviors. He was dog reactive....terrible. That "skill" was not well trained and some of it occurred naturally for his type. Another behavior that was hard to get for a while was walking nicely on a loose leash unless he was in class or in training "mode." That finally came. But for a time, you could say he wasn't well trained in those areas and you could also say he was not well behaved in those areas. Behavior is trained one way or another...either by natural consequences or human intervention. All behavior is born of consequences and that is training because it's learning. One is being taught all the time.
My idea a well trained dog includes not only heal, sit, stay, come, go precisely through an agility course, retrieve when hunting, etc, but it also very much includes not jumping up on a 85 year old woman, practically knocking her to the ground, or grabbing food off the counter, barking incessantly and bothering the whole neighborhood, knocking the window blinds off their brackets while going berserk at the people walking on the sidewalk out front. Behavior an owner can live with happily is not often achieved by no training. So, to me, well behaved and well trained are really one and the same.
My Doberman was well trained in obedience and agility. His behavior around home was good...well trained and some naturally well behaved behaviors. He was dog reactive....terrible. That "skill" was not well trained and some of it occurred naturally for his type. Another behavior that was hard to get for a while was walking nicely on a loose leash unless he was in class or in training "mode." That finally came. But for a time, you could say he wasn't well trained in those areas and you could also say he was not well behaved in those areas. Behavior is trained one way or another...either by natural consequences or human intervention. All behavior is born of consequences and that is training because it's learning. One is being taught all the time.
This reminds me of 4 dogs who belong to a VERY successful, respected trainer in my area. He even had his own show on the public channel & released a set of DVDs. (which my Aunt gave me for christmas when I was younger. thanks a lot!)
His dogs would board at the kennel I worked at. They would come in on their chokers, heeling next to him, dragging their feet and literally SULKING the whole way in! He would show off in the lobby to our customers how his 4 dogs would hold a down-stay for 5 minutes while he checked in, all of them uptight and trembling.
While those 4 dogs are being handled by his wife, or any of us, they are a pack of loons!!! They bark, they lunge, they redirect on each other, they crap all over themselves, pace in it & eat it, they all fly into uncontrollable barking fits. They did heel and behave very well with me (better than with the owner because they weren't in a state of fear), but that's because 3 are Corgis and I gave them lots of extra attention and treats.
Those dogs might appear super trained while under direct threat from their owner. The GSD competes in obedience & schutzhund. But they have NOT been taught to naturally behave, by choice. They have not been taught manners or that other dogs/people are good things, or to be calm and sane. They are reactive beyond belief. This trainer also does not believe in using any food or play rewards in training, only tone of voice (either an angry yell or a squeaky high-pitched baby voice) mixed with violently harsh corrections! I don't consider those dogs trained at all, only controlled by fear. I guess the only positive is the fact that their spirits aren't completely crushed... but they're all very unstable and neurotic when they're acting naturally. I like the trainer as a person, he's an older guy and he loves me because his dogs love me and listen to me (little does he know, it's because of my dreaded treat bribes!!!!) but his methods are so outdated and unnecessary, and obviously aren't condusive in raising a stable, friendly, well-mannered dog.
His dogs would board at the kennel I worked at. They would come in on their chokers, heeling next to him, dragging their feet and literally SULKING the whole way in! He would show off in the lobby to our customers how his 4 dogs would hold a down-stay for 5 minutes while he checked in, all of them uptight and trembling.
While those 4 dogs are being handled by his wife, or any of us, they are a pack of loons!!! They bark, they lunge, they redirect on each other, they crap all over themselves, pace in it & eat it, they all fly into uncontrollable barking fits. They did heel and behave very well with me (better than with the owner because they weren't in a state of fear), but that's because 3 are Corgis and I gave them lots of extra attention and treats.
Those dogs might appear super trained while under direct threat from their owner. The GSD competes in obedience & schutzhund. But they have NOT been taught to naturally behave, by choice. They have not been taught manners or that other dogs/people are good things, or to be calm and sane. They are reactive beyond belief. This trainer also does not believe in using any food or play rewards in training, only tone of voice (either an angry yell or a squeaky high-pitched baby voice) mixed with violently harsh corrections!
I don't consider those dogs trained at all, only controlled by fear. I guess the only positive is the fact that their spirits aren't completely crushed... but they're all very unstable and neurotic when they're acting naturally. I like the trainer as a person, he's an older guy and he loves me because his dogs love me and listen to me (little does he know, it's because of my dreaded treat bribes!!!!) but his methods are so outdated and unnecessary, and obviously aren't condusive in raising a stable, friendly, well-mannered dog.
That sounds horrible Ihart! What a blind person to not see what he's done to his poor dogs. I wish you could demonstrate what a well trained dog looks like...the difference in countenance and attitude...everything. But I'm wondering when you say that this reminds you of this guy with 4 dogs. What about this thread reminds you of that or made you think of that? Just curious.
But I'm wondering when you say that this reminds you of this guy with 4 dogs. What about this thread reminds you of that or made you think of that? Just curious.
But I know better!!! They're a pack of wild dogs. I do love them, though everyone I work with dreads seeing them come in.