Well Let Down Hocks

[RedyreRottweilers]

In reading through the Chow Chow illustrated standard, I notice that this breed calls for well let down hocks.

Now knowing that the Chow Chow is traditionally a breed with little to no turn of stifle or hock angulation, I found this strange, since Gwinnywillow has stated that well let down hocks means extreme turn of stifle with the lower thigh almost parallel to the ground.

as example:

Originally Posted by Gwinnywillow
and the dog is not at all let down on hock. The rise of the hind leg goes straight up from the hock.

Originally Posted by Gwinnywillow
She is gorgeous! But I wonder if there is any such thing any more as a dog "well let down in hock".......which to clear up the mystery means that the bone running from the hock to the stifle is almost horizontal to the ground before starting the upturn.

According, however, to Gilbert-Brown "K9 Structure and Terminology" , well let down hocks are described as:

"Hocks, well let-down. Hock joints close to the ground. Short hocks
improve endurance."

The chow glossary in the Illustrated Standard defines it as:

Well let down: Having short hocks (metatarsals).

I think this is a serious error that could wrongly influence many people who are here trying to learn.

Well let down hocks means SHORT metatarsals, with the hock joint close to the ground.

 

[motherofmany]

and perpendicular to the ground at least in my former breed

 

[Gwinnywillow]

In reading through the Chow Chow illustrated standard, I notice that this breed calls for well let down hocks.

Now knowing that the Chow Chow is traditionally a breed with little to no turn of stifle or hock angulation, I found this strange, since Gwinnywillow has stated that well let down hocks means extreme turn of stifle with the lower thigh almost parallel to the ground.

as example:



According, however, to Gilbert-Brown "K9 Structure and Terminology" , well let down hocks are described as:

"Hocks, well let-down. Hock joints close to the ground. Short hocks
improve endurance."

The chow glossary in the Illustrated Standard defines it as:

Well let down: Having short hocks (metatarsals).

I think this is a serious error that could wrongly influence many people who are here trying to learn.

Well let down hocks means SHORT metatarsals, with the hock joint close to the ground.

AHHHHH HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!! Thank you Red--at last you prove my point. A total lack of comprehension of the written word!!!!!!! Even tho you yourself quote it correctly, you completely miss the entire point!!

Ok, enough jubilation. Well let down hock has nothing to do with "Let down on hock". A dog that is well let down on hock is a distinctly different entity. I will be delighted to stand aside to your wisdom, and let you try to find out what it means. It will be a learning experience for you! Have fun. Oh, and we will forget that I already explained in detail what it means in another thread,

 

[Gwinnywillow]

And if ya note....inspite of the ying and yang we are all managing to learn a little bit here and there!!!!! Things that are hammered out tend to get stuck better in our brains.

 

[motherofmany]

"Hocks well let down" refers to short rear "pasterns" measured from the point of "hock" to the ground, the shorter the metatarsus, and the more acute the "hock" joint angle, the more let down the "hocks" are.

There is a relationship between "bend of stifle" and "let down of hock". The straighter the "stifle" the longer the back "pastern" and the less "let down of hock".

But the two expressions are used synonymously, Gwinny. Straight "stifle" requires long "pastern"=poorly let down "hock" (meaning long "hock") Proper angulation allows proper short "pastern" = "well let down hock" or "hock well let down."

You may think that the placement of modifiers intends different meanings, but it doesn't.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

My bitch does not have a lot of turn of stifle, yet she is well let down in hock.

I have another bitch who has a lot of stifle turn, however, she is not well let down in the hock.

The Chow Chow standard also asks for well let down hocks, and they are classicly straight in stifle with very little hock angulation.

Well let down hocks does not mean that the lower thigh is nearly perpendicular to the ground. Well let down hocks means that the hock joint is close to the ground. The metatarsals are short in well let down hocks.

As M O M states, well let down hocks means SHORT metatarsals, with the hock joint being close to the ground. Many times this is combined with a well turned stifle, but not always, and the stifle does not have to be well turned for a dog to be well let down on hocks.

There are people here who are trying to learn, and well let down hocks has little to do with turn of stifle.

The chow chow is a prime example of that.

JMO as always.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

"Hocks well let down" refers to short rear "pasterns" measured from the point of "hock" to the ground, the shorter the metatarsus, and the more acute the "hock" joint angle, the more let down the "hocks" are.

There is a relationship between "bend of stifle" and "let down of hock". The straighter the "stifle" the longer the back "pastern" and the less "let down of hock".

But the two expressions are used synonymously, Gwinny. Straight "stifle" requires long "pastern"=poorly let down "hock" (meaning long "hock") Proper angulation allows proper short "pastern" = "well let down hock" or "hock well let down."

You may think that the placement of modifiers intends different meanings, but it doesn't.

Well let down on hock refers to a dog who is "seated" into his rear. That is MY description. With a dog with proper rear angulation, as say a Dobe, the bone from the hock will run almost parallel to the ground before joining to the lower leg. You seldom see it any more, since the rear angulation of many breeds has gone out the same window as the front angulation.

I have a picture of S.F. Clansman somewhere that illustrates it to a certain degree. Or, come to think of it, I have a picture of the back end of one of my whippets I will find that will show what _I_ picture as being "well let down on hock".

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Ignore the Manchester clamped onto the hock.

 

[Zoom]

"mmm, chew toy!"

So Gwinny is saying that a well let down hock almost forms a 90 degree angle at the joint and everyone else is saying it just means the hock is close to the ground. Am I summerizing this correctly?

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Yes.

And all definitions to be found define a well let down hock as a hock with short metatarsals with the hock close to the ground.

A chow chow would NEVER have a hock that has such angles, and their standard not only calls for a well let down hock, they define it in their glossary of the illustrated standard.

Well let down hock means a hock close to the ground and short metatarsals.

It has NOTHING to do with the angulation of the hock joint.

Gwinnywillow, your PERSONAL definition of well let down hocks is incorrect.

Period.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Red -

I appreciate your comments in here - I kind of dropped out of some of this because I didn't want the argument (not talking about you, of course .. *L*).

I don't understand why someone wants to interpret the standards and then put their own interpretations on them (with their own choice of phrase) when all it does is confuse everyone.

Here's a photo of my youngest chow - she's still in puppy coat, just bathed and blow-dried and NOT show ready .. *L* .. and not standing completely square, but it does show the straightness of stifle and the relatively short metatarsals (hard to see some of that through all the fur). Although it's impossible to really see, she is a very well-muscled young dog as I encourage a lot of exercise and free play time running with the other dogs.

Chow breeders are an odd lot at times. I've actually had a breeder tell me that I put my chows at huge risk for torn cruciates because I allow them to run and play with the other dogs, and to run through the woods where they can jump logs and do other natural dog behaviors. Unfortunately many of the show breeders have bred for specific looks (like the heavier faces and overly done bones) to the point where they do have to fear things like ACL tears. My question to them is: why the heck are they breeding dogs with weak cruciates?? ANY dog should be able to act as a normal dog, and that includes running and playing.

To me, form and function must go together in any breed. As it states in the chow standard (as in many if not most standards) - it should always be kept in mind what the breed was initially bred for. The heavier more winning style of chow is NOT a benefit to the breed, even if they do still fall within the boundaries of the structure in the standard. They fall far short of some of the other sections of the standard where it talks about the chow being agile and active.

Ths was once a working dog, used for hunting, herding, pulling, packing, guarding (and food and pelts, but we try to forget that .. *L*). The straight stifle has not been a detriment to the breed, until people started breeding for extremes. My goal is to show the world that the chow can still be a working dog and still have the conformation needed to fit the standard.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[doberkim]

she looks great, and i do agree with what you just wrote above --- my dogs dont live in bubbles

my male dobe actually fell in love with a smooth chow bitch that was in our rally class - it got to the point that bowie would have to be buffered from her, because he would just stare at her. he fell in love... he heeled backwards, did backwards sits, just to stare at her. literally, it took an entire class to get him to pay attention to me - he was much better and later classes, but the first day when he fell in love, the entire class was laughing at us!

of course, she also ended up at our first show ever!!!!! but bowie ignored her

 

[IliamnasQuest]

she looks great, and i do agree with what you just wrote above --- my dogs dont live in bubbles

my male dobe actually fell in love with a smooth chow bitch that was in our rally class - it got to the point that bowie would have to be buffered from her, because he would just stare at her. he fell in love... he heeled backwards, did backwards sits, just to stare at her. literally, it took an entire class to get him to pay attention to me - he was much better and later classes, but the first day when he fell in love, the entire class was laughing at us!

of course, she also ended up at our first show ever!!!!! but bowie ignored her

*LOL* .. that's cute! How funny!

I've found that a lot of dogs seem to be confused by chows. They're not sure that they're "real" dogs (or at least that's how it looks). Border collies in particular don't seem to like my chows. My older one has been attacked more than once by OTCH BC's at shows - and all she had to do was look at them (she's a very mellow dog, is NOT a fighter). They jumped on her as she was sitting by my side. It was bizarre, but I think it's just because she had a way of looking at things with a very direct gaze - not meaning to antagonize, just very intense - and BC's take that as a challenge.

I wonder, too, if the structure that a chow is supposed to have makes them seem more threatening. Being upright with short straight pasterns and the thick fur on the back might make them seem more "puffed up" than other breeds. My chows don't raise their hackles like the shepherds can. All that fur is too darn heavy, I guess.

I think most normal dogs don't live in bubbles, but some show breeders have ribbons in their mind and not the good of the dog OR the breed.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[RD]

Melanie, isn't that funny? My Border Collie is the same way, he's very intense about everything and a lot of other dogs seem aggravated by that. (Shar Peis in particular. Every Pei I've encountered has wanted to take a bite out of my Border Collie, but was great with my Papillon.)
That's odd that the BCs you've met got huffy about her staring at them, when that's a common thing in the breed. BCs are cliquey little snots though, most that I've met like to stick to their own "kind". My boy is leaning towards that tendency and I'm doing my best to socialize him with a bunch of different breeds just to prevent him from being a "doggie racist" as my friend calls them.

Your girl is gorgeous and exemplifies, to me, form AND function. She is typey without being so overdone like most of the Chows I see in the ring. I think I'm in love!

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Awww, thanks, RD .. I'm in love with her myself, she has an exquisite temperament and is very intelligent and we work well together.

I've wondered that about the BC's - why they would react to Kylee's stare when they are so known for their "eye'? But it's the only thing I can come up with, because she is just a very mild dog and they jumped on her (two different BC's) when she was sitting quietly. BC's aren't the only breed, of course, that has gotten after her - there have been several. A golden retriever jumped her in our training facility and all she was doing was trotting by - not even looking at him. She's also been attacked by labs, a newf cross, and another chow. Poor little girl!

As far as my youngest dog (the one pictured) .. it took me a year to find a well-bred pup that wasn't overdone (to me, overdone). My requirements were simple .. I wanted a bitch, with a relatively open face but still retaining the chow look, with good conformation but with an emphasis on athletic ability, brains and temperament. I got exactly what I was looking for and I've been completely pleased with her. While she looks like a fluffy "foo-foo" dog, she is a very rough and tumble girl and is athletically fit. The straight stifle doesn't inhibit her movement - she has the stilted gait but she can trot consistently for a long time. And she can move out and really run too!

This is more of her typical mode:

You can see more of these (and the full sized photos) at http://www.peninsulayardsale.com/dogs/khana7.html

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Kenzie]

Melanie, ABSOLUTELY BEAUTIFUL fur family. In the pic of your youngest chow, it looks like she's just waiting for a BIG HUG. Congratulations and thank you for finding the perfect balance for your doggys lives! As I've said before, Kenzie is a pet first, playing and digging , esp. now, trying to find an early spring under all the snow, on a daily basis her legs, feet and belly are black with dirt and mud lol! She cleans up well for the ring though

I too am in love with your two