Weird kind of protective thing, makes no sense.

[Ratboy]

King is going with me to work most days now. He seems to enjoy it, and he's pretty laid back for the most part, with one major exception. There's one guy who sets him off. About half the time, he barks when this guy returns from the bathroom or kitchen, and growls at him, and stares at him. He gets in between us, and looks very upset. If the guy waves his arms around, or makes any odd motions, King continues to growl, but if he puts his hand out, and begins to rub King's neck and chin, the growling changes to what almost sounds like a cow mooing, and eventually it stops, and he will close his eyes. If this guy backs away, King moves closer to him and paws the air, growls or barks, wanting him to continue the rubbing! King looks very upset, but he's "loose", his hair's not up, and I felt his pulse once in the middle of one of these things, and it was barely faster than it normally is just walking around. If the guy has food, King doesn't make a peep, and sits nicely next to him, begging for food, and the guy can rub his head, pat him solidly on the back, and he's fine with it.

He seems to have three responses to people at work. The majority of people he's fine with, and never growls and it's obvious he enjoys them petting him, and has no problems with hugs or any other contact. This includes all the women at work. The next bunch he's fine with most of the time, but he occasionally barks or growls when they have their hands in their pockets, or, like one guy does, puts his hands behind his back a lot. This seems to annoy him greatly, as it has almost all the dogs I've owned.
And then there's the one guy, one of the smallest guys there, not much larger than the women there, so size has nothing to do with it. He does a similar thing with a friend of mine, growling and snarling at him, staring at him intensely, and making some terrible noises while being patted on the head. Eventually, he relaxes to the point he sometimes nods off! If my friend stops, the growling starts over again, and the paw comes up to let him know he's not supposed to stop. If he's ignored, he either "Woodpeckers" his arm or stomach, or just walks away, looking confused.

I'm not really worried about this, as he never snaps at anyone, and he's been doing a similar thing with my friend for at least 5 years or more, but it's the strangest thing I've seen out of King, who has always done a lot of weird stuff in the 10 and a half years I've had him.

Anyone have any idea what this is all about?

 

[Doberluv]

I'm not really worried about this, as he never snaps at anyone, and he's been doing a similar thing with my friend for at least 5 years or more,

You should be worried. This is a mistake to be confident that your dog will never bite anyone. He is clearly unstable and uncomfortable about something. The growling, snarling etc is a communication to that effect. It's just that so far, he has not been pushed past his threshold. You can't say what exactly will push him past it, at what time, in what circumstance. You can't tell what his own frame of mind will be at any given time. Say he has a particularly stressful day. His threshold could be lowered by that and a particular stimulus could push him past it.

I would really recommend you contact a behaviorist. But in the meantime, you can have people that he has a problem with, drop treats for him when they come into his area and then leave. Anytime they are around, wonderful, high value treats come around too. Leave the patting and touching for later. Ask them to come in, not directly facing him, but turned a little sideways, no eye contact. (until he is is more solid) First get him to associate the non-threatening presence (even keep them at some distance for a while) with VERY good things. (real chicken tid bits, steak, hot dog) When they leave and are not around, it is very boring for him (no attention) and there are no special treats. Get him to love having people come around. Get your friends to help you with this. Good luck.

 

[adojrts]

Carrie's advice is bang on and I wouldn't disagree. However, I am curious does he get A LOT of attention and rewards WHEN barking,growling?

He may not be a conflicted dog, but one that has learned that by behaving this way he is getting the attention that he wants. I know that is a twist on the norm, but we all know that dogs do what works for them and this *could* be the case.

But you would have to be very careful and I would first follow Carrie's advice but it is something to consider........

 

[Doberluv]

He may not be a conflicted dog, but one that has learned that by behaving this way he is getting the attention that he wants. I know that is a twist on the norm, but we all know that dogs do what works for them and this *could* be the case.

That certainly could be the case.....something that escaped my memory. Adojrts, I'm glad you thought of that. Yup...dogs definitely do what works to get something they like. So, be careful not to pay attention when he growls/barks etc. In fact, if you keep some distance between his trigger and him...while people come into view and toss a treat, it should prevent him from practicing that behavior. Try to keep him behind the "line" where he would begin to react to these people.

 

[Ratboy]

Thanks for the replies. I watch him pretty closely. I wish I could figure out what is the trigger for this deal.

This is how this thing started..

He has known my one friend for almost his entire life, and until about 5, maybe 6 years ago, he never did this little "acting job", or whatever he's doing. One day, we were at the park, and I was sitting in the car eating, and my friend, who lives really close by, saw us and pulled in next to us. King was sitting on the passenger seat, with his head on the window sill, with his eyes half shut, nearly asleep. My friend said, "Hey King, what are you doing, sleeping again?", (King sleeps more than any dog I have ever had, by far)and got out of his car and came over and started rubbing him on the head. He growled softly, and it got louder as it went along. His back end was, and always is during one of these growling things, loose to the point he can get tipped over easily if pushed even slightly, unlike when he's actually angry, and he's rock hard, and rigid. My friend stopped rubbing, and King took his foot and pawed at him, looking directly at him, and leaned out towards my friend, who started rubbing him again, and the growling went on until naptime, maybe 10 minutes or so. This same thing happens about 50% of the times he sees my friend, the rest of the time, he reacts the same way he does with anyone else he's known for a long time: relaxed, almost to the point of being in a coma. Food changes everything, if my friend has food, no growling ever, nothing but King's eyes locking onto his hands, waiting for something to come his way. If he doesn't get anything, he just sighs and lays down. If he does get something, he's very interested in visiting, for a while, after the food is gone, then it's naptime, as always.

When the guy at work has food, King has no problems sitting right next to him, begging for food, and he has no problems with being patted and his head rubbed. He will close his eyes and it's clear he's totally enjoying it. S soon as it's obvious there isn't any food coming, he leaves and comes back to my cubicle, and lies down, and sleeps. Five minutes later, if he walks by, King may, or may not, bark or growl. Sometimes, he just looks at him and watches him pass by, not a peep. Other times, he might let out one little "yip", and get in between us. But about half the time this happens, he's not even looking at the guy, he's looking right at me, and if the guy says, "Hey King!", his ears drop and sometimes his head goes down and he looks like he's about to puke, other times he gets kind of bug eyed, and will turn back and look intensely at the guy as he passes by.

 

[Doberluv]

It's so hard to have a good feeling about King over the Internet...when one can't see his whole body language and expressions, what exactly is happening around him etc. It does almost sound like he's been "trained" to make these noises by being reinforced with food, attention when he made those noises.

I would be careful not to reinforce any demanding behavior from him. (staring, begging for food or attention, growling noises, just in case they're real growls...that sort of thing) You can practice some NILIF (nothing in life is free) ....google it. And be sure to go through a desensatizing/ counter conditioning program as described above. Let people know that they should not look at him or respond to him in any way when he is acting that way.

So, without seeing your dog in action, it's really hard to say what his intentions might be or might become. If you can afford it, I'd hire a certified behaviorist or reputable positive method trainer who knows learning theory to come observe him in action. Whatever you do, don't get some trainer who uses punishment of any kind for this....no spray bottles, no shaking pennies in a can, no nothing. It's positive reinforcement, it's prevention in the first place by using distance as your helper, it's about associating the triggers with good things only.

At any rate, try those things and let us know if there are any changes.

 

[Ratboy]

I went out and bought a bunch of treats for the guy King growls at to give him so he will look forward to seeing him. Part of the problem is that the guy makes faces or moves his hands/arms strangely just to bait King into doing the growling thing. I'm pretty convinced that King is totally non serious about this. Sometimes, King doesn't even pick his head up, or open his mouth, he just makes cowlike noises as he passes by. He also will walk up to the guy once in a while, and be perfectly fine with the guy patting him on the head, talking to him, etc, especially if King suspects he has food. If so, King becomes his good ol' pal for as long as it's there. Once it's gone, he usually walks away and often resets back into "growl" mode where even if the guy walks past a minute or so later, he growls, or hums. Or maybe not, he might just watch him pass by.

I took both King and Molly to work Sat to avoid Molly being wigged out by trick or treaters, and King was very subdued, as the guy he growls at wasn't there. Except for later on, just before we went home, he decided to start to play with Molly, and as always, "growls" very loudly and is extremely rough. The people at work had never seen him play before, and were kind of shocked how loud and rough he got, but they could see how much fun he was having (Molly not so much, but if I step in, she's very upset, so I leave them alone for the most part, they've been doing it before I got them), but the sounds he was making had the non dog owners at work thinking there was a "fight" going on. Until they saw him, then even the most dog clueless of them understood. I think the deepness of it and the volume of what came out of him was what shocked them. His normal bark is a high pitched "yip" most of the time, but if really upset (He does NOT use this bark when he barks at work), or playing, it's deeper than most 50 pound dog's barks, and is almost exactly the same as Molly's bark. She doesn't have anywhere near the odd vocalizations King has, who trills, whines, yips, woos, tweets, etc, and makes a snorting noise when he's happy. He's snorted in the middle of barking at the guy at work, another indication it's all some sort of odd game thing he's come up with. Tomorrow I go back to work, and I will see what happens with the treats.

 

[Doberluv]

It could be that his growly noises are simply play growls. My little Jose` makes all kinds of growly, warbling noises and even breaks into a full fledged howl when he's "talking" to me. He'll do this sometimes to get me to join in and play with him. It's like, "Hey Mom....aren't I cute? Look at me. Hey, hey....look at my toy."

Again....without seeing King, it is hard to say from this end. Would you be able to make a short video of King when he is doing this? I have a hard time loading videos on this dial-up, but Adojrts or one of the other experienced dog owners or trainers could surely watch his body language and facial expressions and see if they think he's giving off warnings or if he's merely communicating some silly barky noises.

 

[Ratboy]

I might be able to do that if I buy the camcorder I'm looking at. He glares at the guy with his eyes bugged out, at first, but soon will close them if the guy rubs his chin. There's no body tension, no hair is up and he's loose. He's very stiff when he's angry or on alert for a squirell, etc. I was pushing him a little tonight, and compared to when he is simply bugging me to rub his chin, there was at most a very slight difference in how stiff he was holding his back hips and shoulders. Today, he growled slightly at all the men he ever growls at. When we came in, he ran down the aisle, and walked over to one guy's desk, and "Woo-woo" ed at him, and the guy patted him on the head and he was very happy. About a half hour later, he did slightly growl at him as he walked by, but never even picked up his head. When his "main target" showed up, he growled slightly, but showed no real effort, but later on, he actually came out from under the desk and barked the high pitch bark, and growled with his eyes bugging out as usual. One guy was growled at for about 5 seconds, then came up with a tiny hunk of chicken, and King instantly became his bud, at least for the day.


I really think this whole thing is an oddball game thing he's come up with, kind of like his "fishing for clueless dupes" (Molly) when he puts dog food in piles, and ambushes her when she is unable to control herself and tries to eat it, even though she can see him sitting there, staring at her and at this point, it should be obvious what's gonna happen, even to her, but she HAS to eat the food in the piles, ignoring the bowl of food 12 feet away. When she does, he comes off the chair, "snarling", and barking in the really deep bark he does sometimes, and he "attacks" her. He enjoys this immensely, and usually does it three or four times before he gives up and lets her eat in peace. If I stop him from "attacking" he just looks at me like "Huh?", and she gets very upset, so I just sit back and watch the show. They've been doing this kind of stuff for almost 11 years, so what's the point of stopping it now? He's never really hurt her, even when they have the "punchouts" that they have every so often, where a couple of hundred (Hard!) punches are thrown in less than a minute, and when one of them sneezes, it stops, instantly. They really sound like it's a huge fight, but I don't remember ever seeing any blood whatsoever.

 

[MericoX]

It sounds like he is making noises to get attention. My schnauzers will do a certain growling sound when they are upset you have stopped petting them... kinda sounds like they're pissed off and am letting you know!!

 

[Ratboy]

This is without a doubt part of it. I don't know what makes him pick the 4 people he growls at though. On Friday, we got to work, and he walked right up to one of the "growlees" and was very friendly. A few minutes later, the main target walked in, and he didn't make a sound, he just sat there and got his head rubbed for about 30 seconds and then walked back to his hiding spot under my desk, and actually went to sleep for a few minutes. When the main target walked past again, he growled slightly, but didn't even pick up his head. He went back to sleep for a while, snoring loudly, but woke up and barked and did his usual thing the next time he walked by. I watched him really closely, and then ignored him when he looked at me. This upset him apparently, and he slowly moved over to me and finally put his head down on my knee and looked at me like he was miserable. I kept ignoring him and he slowly crawled under the desk, and laid down with a huge sigh.

On Sat, we went to a friend's house, and his brother came over and King growled at him (slightly) while my friend's daughter was hugging him on the couch. He had some food, and soon King was his best friend, and ended up sleeping with his head on the guy's leg after he had a couple bites of the stuff he had. When he growled at him, King looked at me, like "Well?", and I just ignored him, after I tapped him and said "QUIET!". He really can't handle being ignored well at all. My friend's dog seemed even more upset about King being ignored than King himself was. I have no idea why, but he was pretty much a basket case while King looked at me.

 

[Doberluv]

Well, it's just so hard when we can't see what King's really saying, due to the Internet. We can't see his body language or facial expressions, which would help a lot in determining if this growling is simply him "talking" or if he's really warning, nervous or what. It almost sounds like it's nothing but asking for attention, but I can't be sure.

Just keep ignoring and don't respond to his "demands" for attention, if you think that's what he's meaning. Do be careful about the hugging. Most dogs don't naturally like hugging unless they've been conditioned to it and it's always been associated with good things. It's just not a natural way for them to show affection and can come off as an aggressive thing from humans. If you're not sure what is in his mind with all this growling and stuff, I wouldn't let kids hug him. Just sit near by and let him come over for a pat or whatever he likes.

When he growled at him, King looked at me, like "Well?", and I just ignored him, after I tapped him and said "QUIET!".

Tapping him and saying "QUIET!" is paying attention to him and reinforcing this behavior. It is not ignoring him. If you want to extinguish this growling behavior and/or this demand for attention, you must ignore him explicitly. That means no looking at him, no touching, no speaking, no nothin'. LOL. When you think it's a good time to give him some attention, have him do something for you first. Save your attention for when his behavior is what you like. THEN give him attention. Keep in mind that any time you give him attention, affection, a look, any kind of reaction, you're reinforcing whatever behavior he is engaged in at that very moment and it will likely be repeated in the future. When he goes and lies down and is quiet, (if that is what you like) that's the time to let him know you like that and give him something he likes.

 

[Ratboy]

Well, I finally figured out part of this mystery behavior, too late to keep him from getting bounced from work. The thing that got him barred from coming wasn't even a big deal. Since his Cushing's disease is being controlled, all the symptoms of it have disappeared. No more drinking a ton of water, peeing, panting, etc. But one thing has remained, he is totally off the deep end about food, he is very grabby about it. I make him sit and take it nicely, but if it's dropped, or tossed, he really snaps it up. One of the guys at work he growls at had a cell phone in his hand and King tried to grab it, thinking it was food in his hand, and VERY slightly pinched his hand (No damage), and the bosses overreacted and that was it.

This whole thing was basically King not wanting certain people going near the drawer I kept his snacks in. It didn't dawn on me what he was actually doing until I moved his biscuits over to another drawer, while I was cleaning out the regular one, and he started moving over towards it instead of the usual side. The way my cubicle is laid out, the regular drawer is up against the aisle, and when those "special" people passed by, he growled at them and would sometimes come out near the drawer, the logical place for him to go if he wanted to guard it. The mystery is what is why he picked some people to worry about, and why he didn't care about others at all. I was talking to a trainer who works at the day care place I go to, and he was shocked about his food guarding, as King hasn't started anything over food, in fact he's had food grabbed out from underneath him, and hasn't done more than a glare at the other dog. He said he's not shy about retaliating when he gets pushed around, or another dog attacks him. He's one of the more dominant dogs there, but he's not aggressive, as he walks away, or tries to, to avoid problems before he finally reacts. One dog, a Shar-Pei, seems to almost enjoy getting pinned and chewed on, since he starts trouble with a lot of dogs, and for a while, King and him were kept apart, but one day they forgot to separate them, and King had enough of him nipping him on the butt, and pinned him several times, and he finally got the hint, and leaves King alone now, never getting too close, and not making any eye contact. If only the Great Dane would too..