We need to do something, now

[Maxy24]

As you know, American Pit Bull Terriers were bred to go after other animals, so generally they are not great with them, of course there are individuals that are. Many times they do not show this aggression or prey drive until they are fully mature (2ish years old). So it sounds like, one way or another this dog cannot be with other animals (the dog only guarded from other animals, cats AND dogs but not people, correct?). So either make sure they are never together (using doors) or find a new home for your dog. Some rescues will take DA dogs, some will not, a pit bull rescue would probably be your best bet as they should understand that this sort of reaction is typical in the breed.

If you want to find a rescue tell me your state and I'll see if I can find one for you. Please don't mind some posters, we all have our own way of saying things and since we are typing tone is lost, some of us feel very strongly about things. Mia was very baffled that you did not realize that an APBT or many dogs for that matter would react like this to a cat since it is so common, she feels it should be expected and that it is ignorant to expect a dog to be A-Okay with cats, especially this breed. That is why she said what she said. Any posted after her who reacted negatively is most likely angry that you are insulting Miakoda, we are very protective of our members

 

[Renee750il]

As you know, American Pit Bull Terriers were bred to go after other animals, so generally they are not great with them,

Let's take it one farther: TERRIERS were bred to go after other animals. It's what they do. They hunt furry varmints. Of all the different Terriers I've known and loved, the APBT, though, is by far the most affectionate and least naturally apt to bite a human.

 

[yilduz]

She has been fine with cats her whole life and our dog that recently passed (at age 13) lived her whole life just fine with cats. This dog and this cat are normally fine together, but sometimes the dog goes after the cat. It's not very common, but it is incredibly vicious, which is why it seems very strange.

I'm not some retard that picked up a pit because they're "cool." I have a better understanding of the breed than most people, maybe not as much as some of you that "live and breathe" them, or whatever, but we do have a good understanding of them.

 

[Backward_Cinderella]

Could you please leave "retard" and words like it OUT of the conversation? Its extremely offensive.
People are trying to HELP you. You just don't seem to want to listen to any advice that isn't "get rid of her immediately - this rescue will take her"

 

[Deedlit]

yilduz didn't mean to come off as hostile. He loves Athena very much and has never had as deep a connection with an animal as he has with her.
So even if he isn't up to it, I apologize on his behalf.
But I can also see why he became that way.
Yes, we are not aficionados on APBT's, but I have been raised with them my whole life.
My brother initially got the dog and then obviously didn't feel inclined enough to take care of her. My mother stepped in and took the dog off his hands. The dog has been spoiled and let run the house which is MY PARENTS fault. At the time I was too busy growing up and starting a life of my own. Now my parents have dumped her off on us, after 4 years of letting her have the roost.
Now, to be fair, we love the dog. She is a joy and always has been welcomed. We want her to have the best life possible. She obviously isn't used to being told what to do. I don't put up with a dog ruling my house. Simple as that. I am not trying to dominate her, but I feel she needs to know it isn't her house. Its our house.
She has some seriously guarding issues, which started with food and has escalated.
The other day she went after the cat because my husband gave her an empty bottle to help teach her to take it to the recycling, which she has done in the past. The cat was close and I am assuming she thought the cat was going to take the bottle from her. No more bottles.
Yesterday evening, I was sitting on the couch, My husband was playing Wii and the dog was on the floor by the fire, laying peacefully. The way it usually is. The cat happened to jump up on the back of the couch beside me. The dog tore up and jumped up on the couch besides be, trying to attack the cat. I am guessing guarding me or my husband, I couldn't tell and it really doesn't matter. I had to pull her off the couch or she would have jumped over, hurt herself and possibly hurt the cat as well.
The cat is **** brick dumb. She (appears) to be an instigator, but she as well was dumped off on us. My mother swears the cat needs to be on Xanax, but I refuse to put her on it just because I think there are other, more natural ways to heal animals.
This morning my husband and I took the dog for a walk. He and I need to work together. Since Athena has known him, he has always been a play mate. They are best friends, but I don't think she takes him very seriously because of that fact.

Anyways, walking Athena, and trying to get her to walk WITH us, instead of dragging us along. We would be walking, she would start to drop her head, pulling the leash and dragging me along, so I would tug to the side, in an effort to break her attention and get it back on me. If she persisted, she would sit and wait till we were all ready to go back to walking together. This honestly was working. Slowly but surely, she was looking to me, walking besides me, not pulling on the leash and I would reward her for this "Good dog", petting and giving her good pats. We turned around and got back to the house, and my husband took her for a bit of a jog, also because I think he felt as much as I did that the dog was looking more towards me for a leadership role versus both of us.
I don't understand how you can say that you expect and animal to act like a dog, but then insist that training her like she was a part of the pack is wrong. I agree, you cant get upset at a dog for acting the way she does. Shes a dog. She thinks like a dog. Therefore, I wish to "train" her, if you will, like the pack animal she is! I don't see whats wrong with this.
That, however, doesn't mean using force. I agree that hitting a dog and beating a dog into submission isn't right. But I don't fell that telling a dog the space she CANNOT own is wrong. When I roll the dog over, 9 times out of 10, she knows when she was wrong. She isn't a dumb dog, but that makes it harder to get through to her. She's smart. But there are still signs that my husband and I can both read before she becomes unstable.
Sometimes, like this morning, we just can't predict it. I was in the kitchen and didn't know anything was happening until my husband had her on the ground. He wasn't hitting her or beating her. Merely holding her there, because honestly, otherwise what was he supposed to do? Let her go? Who knows what she would have gone after then, because at that stage, she was EXTREMELY focused, and even trying to get her attention was hard.

I came over to help and it was like as soon as she saw me, she was growling and barking to get up and get after me. I can only guess this means that it is my husband she is guarding and for some reason she sees me as a threat for leader spot. I am extremely assertive, and I don't let ANYTHING slide. Before my husbands last day, I was at home with the dog all day. She would be out, things were FINE. I didn't have to watch her every move, she listened to me, implicitly.
It seems though that when my husband came home from work, everything I said and worked on with her all day went out the window.

Anyways, the meaning I had for this post was to help clarify a few things. It isn't that we don't love or understand the dog. We just don't have the means to rehabilitate ourselves or the dog at this moment and I think she deserves to be in a place where she can get balanced and be with a family that is better suited for her.

This post was merely asking for resources. Yes. We know were are ill-adept to help Athena. We have said this. AT LEAST we are being responsible enough and knowing our limits before something more serious was to happen. My father has already stated that were she to bite a human, she was to be put down. And seeing as how close we came today, I would rather her be in a rehabilitation center than put to sleep. She CAN be a happy healthy loving dog, but we are not able to give her that at this moment and that is unfair for everyone in this situation, INCLUDING her.

Sorry for the extremely long and seemingly convoluted post. I hope it helps everyone understand a little better where we are coming from and, again. I'm sorry on behalf of yilduz to anyone he offended. He just doesn't know how to handle possibly losing the dog and he's never seen her go after a human before. Hes a little torn about it.

 

[Dekka]

All I can say is good luck.. It IS VERY VERY common in terrier breeds to be fine with other animals until one day.... And all the people I have met say "but she/he was fine with the cat (other dog etc)" The point is dogs live in the moment. IF in that moment something about the cat screams "prey" the dog will react. They don't think about all the times they co existed in peace with the cat.

Some people have given you some resources. I hope you can find a rescue that is willing to work with her. (in a NON Cesar way) and find her a great home. I could go on about how your preconception about dogs and how they learn probably didn't help matters, and how to 'fix' some of your problems-but it sounds to me like you have made up your mind about this dog and want to dump it.

Just to point out.. Rolling dogs is a stupid thing to do. Dogs know we are not dogs.. (you are right they are not dumb). Dogs offer the roll others don't roll them anyway. In a 'pack' the only time a wolf is rolled by another is if it intends to kill it. So basically alpha rolls are death threats. NO good trainer reccomends it. We are the dogs leaders cause we have the brains, the thumbs and all the resouces- not cause we are bigger scarier dogs.

 

[Deedlit]

The reason behind us coming here is because in the past were weren't labeled and branded as dumpers. Thanks for making me feel all warm and fuzzy. I understand what you are saying. I WAS NEVER TOLD THIS BEFORE. I didn't know it was a death threat or whatever. Im not educated enough and I came here looking for help. I don't have any money. Its not a matter of not wanting to spend money to get the dog and us some well needed help. Trust me. If I had the money, it would all be spent on her. But I don't.
Please don't make this into a gang rape because I'm admitting I don't have what the dog needs. We can't all afford to have our dogs in training and classes and behavioral skills. I know what needs to be done and how she can be helped but I don't have the money to do it. That's what all this is about. I'm sorry if I look at Cesar Millan and think "Wow. I wish I could do that." I don't have anything else saying I can't or shouldn't try it and compared to what other options there are, It seemed like it wouldn't hurt to try. So please if all you can do is sit here and be rate me for TRYING, then just don't say anything at all. I have bought all the books you guys have suggested to me. Read through them. tried and application all the things they said and it hasn't worked. I have spoken to multiple trainers on the phone and talked to them about what I am doing and how we are going about things and they have all told me I am doing the right thing. I cant afford to hire them. So talking is all I've been able to do. So like I was saying. I don't know how else you want me to put it. I don't want to lose the dog, but aside from killing her, that's the only option we have right now. Unless one of you would like to take her or have other suggestions that would help our present situation, please can we keep this to constructive posts versus condemning ones? Id really appreciate it. Thank you.

 

[milos_mommy]

I really recommend you watch Victoria Stillwell's show. She's a great trainer.

I think it's possible you can keep Athena in your home, and she can probably be around your cat, but NEVER leave them unsupervised together. She's a big dog and can probably kill your cat in half a second. When you go out or can't watch her, crate her, put her in a bedroom, or the cat in a bedroom, etc. Also, feed her in her crate or in a bedroom with no kittycat around.

I'd start clicker training. You need to make her commands stronger than her desire to harm the cat. When she lowers her head and starts to growl, she's upset with the cat for some reason. She may tired and not want to be disturbed, be jealous of the cat getting attention, or just suddenly feeling like chasing the cat. When you see her do this, distract her. I'd start by teaching her a "watch me" command...search the training forum for threads on that. Start with no distractions, then start doing it when the cat is around.

I'd recommend getting the book "Click To Calm". You can order it off cleanrun.com. It teaches clicker training for dog-to-dog aggression, but I think it can work for cat aggression as well. It will show you how to teach her to hold something in her mouth so she can't bite at the cat, and basically help you teach her self control.

This is going to be an ongoing process. As long as she's in your care, you're going to need to work with her. I applaud you for trying to work this out.

 

[BostonBanker]

I don't have anything else saying I can't or shouldn't try it and compared to what other options there are, It seemed like it wouldn't hurt to try.

This is why the "Do not try this at home" warning on CM's show is not good enough. It needs to be off the air. People are going to try to imitate what they see no matter how many warnings there are on the screen.

I hope you and Athena find the help you need.

 

[TheGoldenRetriever]

Yilduz,

Please don't get hung up on what you perceived as a personal insult ... it wasn't meant to be. Miakoda's first post was rather blunt. But that's because it sure sounded like what you really want is for this dog is change into one that can be safely left with your cat, without incident. Fergitabboudit!!

Mia was only trying to convey that you can NEVER trust that dog around your cat. It's that simple ... stated bluntly because you need to FULLY understand this, unless you want a dead cat. It really is THAT serious. What you're dealing with is high prey drive, not something that can be "trained out" of your current dog. It's useless to compare this dog to other dogs you have had, ones that were "fine" with the cat. Quite simply, she is NOT those dogs!

I do have experience with exactly the same situation. We have a foster dog, an Australian Shepherd/Rottweiller mix ... he too has high prey drive. (He was an adult rescue dog from a "rescue" that extensively lied about his background, then flatly refused to take him back.) We keep him separated from our cats at ALL times ... using closed doors, crate-and-rotate, and indoor-outdoor solutions. (The dog goes outdoors, not the cats.) He never even sees our cats ... period.

It's not enough to use baby gates, because a high prey drive dog that continually sees its potential prey is going to be driven nuts ... only escalating the situation. Forget training for this ... we both have lots of experience with dogs, our own and other peoples', and we had also hired two professional private trainers. A year and a half later he still has high prey drive and would still direct it at our cats if we let him. He sees NO difference between cats and the ground squirrels, gophers, and quail that he has killed outside. The only solution in these cases is management and separation. Wishing it could be different or trusting that "maybe" it might be OK is asking for a dead cat.

If in your situation, I would be much more concerned about the food guarding and aggression toward your wife. Please stop copying Cesar Millan's show and physically confronting this dog by using "pin-downs" or "alpha rolls"!! It's not going to help ... it will make it worse. Sounds like it already has, as you seem to indicate that the aggression toward humans is a new problem. Aggression met with Aggression = More Aggression. For the food guarding, try the book "Mine!" by trainer Jean Donaldson ... probably in your local library.

If you do decide to re-home this dog, please be completely HONEST about the problems you have had with her. If you are not, and she injures a person, you CAN be held personally responsible even if you re-homed the dog!

I do feel badly for you ... we are luckier in that Marley has never shown an ounce of human-directed aggression. But he MAY have gone that way if we had used pin-downs and alpha-rolls ... because early on he DID get very "guardy" with me. He didn't want anyone near me, including my stepson and his father. Marley was successfully trained out of that and trained out of several anxiety issues he came with ... but his prey drive is permanent because it's deeply ingrained and instinctual with him.

We don't hold it against him ... his prey drive is just the dog that he IS. He will never be like our Golden Retriever or our wolf hybrid, both of whom could be left with cats with NO problems whatsoever. That's OK, we appreciate Marley for what he is, and he's great with ALL people and not "guardy" anymore. He still does not appreciate strangers approaching me on our walks, but shows no aggression and he's perfectly fine once I tell him "It's OK Marley." Then he relaxes and is friendly.

We have been trying to find an only-pet home for him, but have refused to release him to anyone who wants to keep him outside 24/7. If he has to stay with us forever we will just continue the management/separation ... inconvenient, but not all that difficult once it becomes habit for everyone in the house. We do love Marley, but one has to appreciate each dog for the dog they ARE .... not the dog you would like them to be.

 

[ihartgonzo]

**** you, you piece of ****.

WOWWWW! :yikes:

And you expect anyone to try to help you after you say something like this right off the bat? Do us all a favor... including your dog... and grow up. You aren't always going to get the answer that you want to hear, but sometimes a "reality check" is exactly what you need.

My advice? Save up your money for a certified behaviorist who uses only positive reinforcement methods, who can go in and give you one-on-one instruction and advice. Until then, crate her when she has food/a bone/a chewy, feed her by hand in a secluded room when you can, and strictly supervise her any time she is around the cat (preferably on-leash). Oh, and STOP WATCHING THE DOG WHISPERER, please oh please!

 

[Deedlit]

Thank You all very much for your supportive posts. Its nice that some people actually READ what you are saying. Not instantly jumping to conclusions.

What we have been doing has been making it worse. OKay. That really sucks. Because that's the way I have always been taught. Its how my father did it, and incidentally, is how I have been doing it. My bad. I'm not blaming anyone here for my mess ups, but please from now on, don't jump all over me. Its not my fault I was taught incorrectly.

The issue at hand is my husband and I are moving in less than a week.... 2000 miles away and were prepared to take the dog, thinking since it had quieted down here, she had seemed a lot better, and it looked we were finally getting somewhere. The problem being that we are moving in with my brother and his wife. They have a female pit/whippet mix. She has some HUGE issues, even compared to Athena, but they are in a constant management stage. So, that pretty much leaves my husband, myself and the dog homeless. Ha!

I would love to watch Ms. Stillwell's show, and have actually a time or 2 in the past. But I have yet to see an episode which addresses something even similar to what we are dealing with. I don't have time to really sit through them all. Nor the money to purchase them.

I have purchased the book "Mine!", read threw it and have been hand feeding her, and making her earn her food, sitting with her and also have been feeding her 2 times a day versus only once a day... Also toys aren't allowed in the house. Period. She gets one chewy which is given to her when she is good, but even that seems to have become an issue of late.

I talked to my sister in law (the one we will be living with) and she said she would call and talk to her dog trainer about it and see what he has to say. They are fortunate enough to have had the extra money and spend well over a few grand on their dog, and still are in the "maintaining the situation" stage. I just feel like having it be like that is unfair to her. I know she is a good dog. I know she can be happy and well balance. I KNOW it.

I guess for me it's just at that place where, ya I have read books and the last thing I want to do is read more. I'm not asking for instant results, but after all this time I would have thought to make some progress. It seems like every time we take a step forwards, something happens that sends us 3 steps back.

I don't know. Thanks for you input guys. I need to be away from the computer. It's just frustrating me more.

 

[Deedlit]

WOWWWW! :yikes:

And you expect anyone to try to help you after you say something like this right off the bat? Do us all a favor... including your dog... and grow up. You aren't always going to get the answer that you want to hear, but sometimes a "reality check" is exactly what you need.

My advice? Save up your money for a certified behaviorist who uses only positive reinforcement methods, who can go in and give you one-on-one instruction and advice. Until then, crate her when she has food/a bone/a chewy, feed her by hand in a secluded room when you can, and strictly supervise her any time she is around the cat (preferably on-leash). Oh, and STOP WATCHING THE DOG WHISPERER, please oh please!

Please oh please read all the posts before you jump all over the place. We have been doing all this and more. We have no money to save. We are living in my parents house. Spending all our money on our bills and my mothers. We are in a shite situation right now. PLEASE, read the posts before you save everything I have just posted weve already done. Thanks. Or just dont post at all.

 

[Renee750il]

Have you checked into NILIF training techniques? (Nothing In Life Is Free) A lot of our members here have had wonderful results using NILIF.

And one thing I'd strongly suggest you do is get her acclimated to a crate - and make sure the cat does NOT get in it

A really good idea would be to send a PM here to Dr2little - she's amazing with this kind of thing.

 

[Deedlit]

Yea she has a crate. She sleeps in there and is left in there when we are out of the house, etc. We make sure when she is out, she is under constant supervision.
Also, in the past when she has gotten bones and stuff, we make sure she is in her crate, but even if she SEES someone, she goes insane. So she doesnt get them anymore.
She used to get bones when she went in her box, but that became an issue so they were taken out of the picture. We have pretty much eliminated every variable from her life that seems to have been a "trigger" and have been actively trying to get her to earn everything she does. The problem is she ignores anything you say UNLESS she thinks you have food for her.
Also I have been noticing she jumps all over my husband. I don't know how to get her to not do that, or have him tell her not to, because I don't have too much of an issue with it.

 

[Renee750il]

My first instinct is to suggest you use something other than food as her reward system. Affection seems like it might be a good reward to wean her to, or a quick game of something as an alternate.

 

[Deedlit]

Yea, thats what I have been trying, because she is soo food driven, I didn't want to completely capitalize on this for fear she would think any food is for her. She doesnt seem to respond at all to affection though. Sometimes she does, but not very well. She is very much a "licker", loves to lick anything within reach, but I dont think she gets the idea that she is being given affection as a reward. If that makes sense.

 

[Renee750il]

It does make sense - it's the Terrier way, lol. Tallulah seems like that at times, and that's when I use a backup reward, like a quick game of something or a short walk, even if it's just out and around the front yard.

It's really a weaning process. Sometimes you connect the food with the affection. She gets the affection followed by a tidbit and gradually it sinks through that Terrier noggin that one is just about as good as the other. There is no substance on the planet as hard as Terrier noggin.

 

[Miakoda]

She has been fine with cats her whole life and our dog that recently passed (at age 13) lived her whole life just fine with cats. This dog and this cat are normally fine together, but sometimes the dog goes after the cat. It's not very common, but it is incredibly vicious, which is why it seems very strange.

I'm not some retard that picked up a pit because they're "cool." I have a better understanding of the breed than most people, maybe not as much as some of you that "live and breathe" them, or whatever, but we do have a good understanding of them.

Then you would NOT be surprised that your dog woke up one day with it's mind focused on going after your cat. Dogs can "turn on" at any time. They aren't machines that are programmed at 10 weeks of age and never deviate from that. Especially working dogs.

It's not unheard of for someone to have 2 APBTs that have been "best friends" with each other for 6-7 years only to have them wake up one day and it looks like a gladiator match went on in their living room and now they have 2 severely injured dogs....possibly 1 dead one. And after that point, the dogs want nothing more to do with each other than have a good round.

And again, cats and dogs...........seriously. Cats and mice. Snakes and rabbits.

 

[Miakoda]

stated bluntly because you need to FULLY understand this, unless you want a dead cat. It really is THAT serious. What you're dealing with is high prey drive, not something that can be "trained out" of your current dog. It's useless to compare this dog to other dogs you have had, ones that were "fine" with the cat. Quite simply, she is NOT those dogs!

Exactly.