Warning about kibbles, and question about raw diet...

[Adrienne.A.]

So I went to a seminar at the NSAC (Nova Scotia Agricultural College) regarding dog kibbles and I was truly shocked. The three brands that were analyzed in the study that this girl were presenting were high end organic holistic foods, and all were severely deficient in nutrients. The protein:fat ratio was way off and the zinc, phosphorus and calcium levels were so off that if a dog were to be fed these foods for their entire life there could be severe neurological/musculoskeletal damage.

One dog, a 16 month old Rat Terrier, had developed what the vet diagnosed to be epilepsy while on one of these high end foods, the owner didn't agree as there was absolutely no family history and decided to do some research. She found that if the ratio of macro and micro minerals is not right the nervous system can be severely damaged; calcium as an uptake in almost every biochemical reaction in the body and if there is too much or too little it effects everything. Long story short, she switched her dog to an all raw diet and the epilepsy went away completely in a couple of months (it takes a long time for the calcium stores in the bones to get far enough back to normal that there is no more obvious problems, it can take years until the bone stores are back to normal though), without the use of medication.

The conclusions of this study were quite shocking, the high end organic and holistic brands aren't any better than the low end bargain brands for the most part. Also, dog food manufacturers (in Canada at least) can do something called ingredient splitting, where if there is corn meal, corn flour, corn starch and whole corn in the dog food they don't have to list corn as the #1 ingredient even though it is. They just list each corn product in order of its individual contribution, so you think your dog is getting mostly chicken, when in fact he is eating almost all corn and/or other grains and low quality meat wastes. Also, they weigh the meat wet (as ingredients are listed by weight not actual percentage, another thing that clouds the ingredients list), before it is cooked, dried and smashed into a powder, so the amount of chicken your dog is getting is probably not nearly as high as is stated on the bag. Chicken is probably the fourth or fifth ingredient (percentage wise) even though it is listed as the first.

They also put euthanized animals into these high end brands as was evident by the trace amounts of the euthanasia chemical. All that grinding and smashing of the ingredients by the heavy machinery also adds a lot of metals to the food. In one brand sampled there were flakes of red inorganic matter in the food that could not have been digested by the dog.

If anyone wants to know the brands sampled just say so and I'll post them. I found the talk to be incredibly informative and it certainly changed my views on feeding my dogs.

So now I have some questions. I want to take Gunnar off of his kibble but I don't know how to get started with him on the raw diet. Most veterinary associations, in Canada and the States too, are sponsored by various pet food companies so most vets are not even taught the benefits of a raw diet in vet school. Most are taught a bias against such a diet as a result of this sponsorship.

Apparently there are tonnes of benefits to a raw diet, your dog will have tonnes more energy, their coat will be nicer, they will have a proper balance of micro and macro minerals, their jaw, neck and shoulder muscles will be properly exercised because of all the chewing, for large breeds the risk of bloat is greatly reduced, the need for dental care is eliminated in most dogs, etc. Also, contrary to popular belief (and I used to think this too), pork and chicken bones are safe to feed when raw, that being said NEVER feed these bones cooked, it changes the structure of the bones which is what causes them to splinter. Even cooked beef bones are dangerous to feed (another thing that I didn't know).

So now I have some questions for the raw feeders out there:

So how much meat should he be getting? he's 13 almost 14 weeks old and a Norwegian Elkhound
What kinds of meat should he be getting at this stage?
How will know if he's getting enough?
Should I feed fatty cuts, lean cuts or a combination of both?
How do I do this on a budget? I've heard that raw diets can be cheaper than traditional diets, but you need to know where to shop...
Are there any risks?
What about the need for supplements, the person who put on the seminar said that supplements are not necessary when feeding a varied raw diet with absolutely no grains or kibble to block the uptake of nutrients, but I've read other places that supplements are necessary....
How can I learn more? Which websites are reputable and which ones aren't? I've been on some zingers already, haha, and I don't want to mess up Gunnar's feeding because of a quack website

Any help with these questions would be greatly appreciated. I was honestly shocked when I learned how bad kibble is for dogs, wet food is slightly better for them so if you must feed a traditional diet go with the wet varieties and offer lots of chew toys for cleaning their teeth.

 

[Saintgirl]

This is what happens when you have a 3 month old baby at home...I'm falling behind on all of the dog stuff. Who put on the seminar at the NSAC? I'm interested in the kibble brands that they used for the seminar?

As for where to do raw on a budget, we buy our beef from a farmer in Elmsdale. We buy split sides and his prices are way better than a grocery store plus no hormones, antibiotics, they are fed native pasture grass, and it is certified AAA grade beef (not that the dogs care- but we do!) Contact any of the local farmers and I'm sure you'll get a way better price, but you need lots of freezer space!

 

[Adrienne.A.]

The seminar was put on during my CHEM1001 class, an upper year pre-vet student was the one with the epileptic rat terrier and she did the analysis of the food and the resulting presentation as part of her 3rd or 4th year project, it was really well done. It was done by Jessica Rock.

We definitely have lots of freezer space, I've been looking at the Brookside Abbatoir, Northumberland Lamb Marketing, and River Breeze Farm Market too, have you heard anything about any of them, good or bad?

 

[MandyPug]

What brands of Kibble did she use?

I don't feed kibble, i feed pre-made raw, but i do work at a store that focuses on canine nutrition and it interests me greatly.

 

[Adrienne.A.]

the foods were:

1. Oven Baked Tradition, Natural/Holistic Adult Chicken Formula
2. Canineplus, Grain-free Wholesome Blend Hypoallergenic Surf Blend (fish protein)
3. Holistic Blend Chicken Formula for All Life Stages

 

[vanillasugar]

Okay, just to clarify. NONE of those brands are organic.

They may be marketed as "natural" and their ingredients may be better than grocery store foods, but to be organic they need to be certified organic and show a certification on the label.

The ingredient splitting is old news, but helpful to those who haven't heard of it before. A careful reading of any ingredients label can detect ingredients splitting pretty easily.

I do believe a raw diet is better than any kibble diet, but the nutritional deficiencies you talk about in the kibbles tested can happen in an improperly thought out raw diet as well. I follow the "balance over time" philosophy, but you still have to watch that within a week or so your dog gets the proper balance of bone to muscle to organ and any supplements or veggies you choose to use (if any). I've talked to several people over the years who honestly think that feeding a raw diet means giving your dog ground beef. They don't know that you need to add other things. A diet like this may be called "raw" but it's far more unbalanced and dangerous long term than those kibbles.

 

[Brattina88]

I am, by no means, an expert - but I can give you what I know. I know there are several of us on here that feed raw. For a while I was back and forth with Innova EVO and raw due to money, and supplier issues, but we are now 100% raw (again - permanently this time, hopefully) and LOVING it! :-D

So how much meat should he be getting? he's 13 almost 14 weeks old and a Norwegian Elkhound

While I've never personally had experience feedin 100% raw to a puppy, I've read you should feed around 3% of your dogs ideal adult weight. More or less depending on individual needs, activity level, etc

What kinds of meat should he be getting at this stage?

There are some differing opinions on this. Some say to start with a single protein source (which is what I did - chicken) and give them different parts of chicken for a week, or until you're dog is adjusted to a raw diet, and then introduce more protein sources. You'll hear repeatedly when learning about raw that variety is the key. With a puppy I'd imagine that they'd need softer bones (so, no hard/huge marrow bones) until they have learned to chew properly, not gulp, or break teeth.

How will know if he's getting enough?

By how they feel when you feel your pup, you should be able to feel the ribs, but there should be a layer of muscle over the ribs as well. Whats the old saying? Make a fist... feel the back of your hand. If your dog feels like the back of your hand he may be overweight. Now feel your knuckles. If your dogs ribs feel like you knuckles then he is most likely Underweight. Now feel your fingers just below the knuckles... that's about right... or something like that LOL
I know some vets don't really say much about weight anymore, some people see dogs at a good weight and declare that they're being starved . Anyway, its taxing on a puppy's bones to grow when the puppy being overweight. The one puppy that I personally knew on raw, self regulated his own feeding. I know my cows would never do that :rofl1:

Should I feed fatty cuts, lean cuts or a combination of both?

After being acclimated to raw, it should be a combination of all. Many follow a "prey model diet" or "frankenprey" as I've heard it being called. Of course, some feed whole prey! It depends on what you're willing to feed. I'm not a huge fan of the "whole prey" thing to do me being a little squeamish and a big fat baby so I base my feeding on a prey model diet. You'll need meals of combinations of muscle meat, RMB (raw meaty bones), organs, some fats (too much known to cause diarrhea! warning!), etc so your dog is getting the necessary nutrients.

How do I do this on a budget? I've heard that raw diets can be cheaper than traditional diets, but you need to know where to shop...

If you have the freezer space, buying in bulk saves LOTS of money. If you do not have the freezer space, I strongly suggest looking into getting more freezer space A locally owned butcher or a local farmer will be much cheaper than, say, a walmart or a grocery store. Actually, when I went to my local butcher I got a good portion of the diet really cheap because the parts that I wanted are hardly ever consumed by humans, and usually go to waste

Are there any risks?

There are risks with feeding anything, practically! But good question!

My only complaint about raw is the reaction I sometimes get when people hear I feed raw. I had an issue with my first vet, and sometimes we get into disagreements with friends or other "doggy people"... but... I guess that's not really a "risk" you were looking for :lol-sign:

I believe there is more of a risk to us, than to them. IF we don't wash our hands, and stuff like that. I'll quote;

Ok, there is bacteria everywhere. Dogs have an amazing immunity system specifically designed to eat all manner of bacteria. And a healthy raw fed fed dog manages those bacteria without a problem.

E-coli, salmonella, etc are found on raw chicken, but those nasties are also found in your fridge, in your sink, on your floor, in your backyard, in your car, on the footpath, down at the park, and perhaps in your bed! Interestingly, the only cases I have heard of dogs dying from e-coli or salmonella, were dogs fed commercial dog foods.

IF you have an... over exuberant dog p) I've heard of some trying to gulp it down and sort of half-choke. That's why, especially in the beginning, they really have to be watched very closely for gulping or trying to swallow huge, or sharp, pieces.

What about the need for supplements, the person who put on the seminar said that supplements are not necessary when feeding a varied raw diet with absolutely no grains or kibble to block the uptake of nutrients, but I've read other places that supplements are necessary....

I personally don't believe supplements are necessary. With that being said, mine do get supplements :rofl1: glucosamine and chondroitin and stuff like that... for joints... doctor ordered



I hope that helps a little! I remember doing TONS and TONS of research, keeping a feeding journal, measuring out/weighing meats, etc and thinking raw was sooo hard. But its not! Actually, its MUCH easier than I set myself up for! Once you get a routine of taking it out of the freezer, and thawing out the meat, its easier (IMO) to pull it out of the fridge and hand it to the dog than to measure out the dog food

Oh, and here's on of my favorite sites (which I quoted from up there ^)
Raw Feeding FAQ

 

[Adrienne.A.]

@ Brattina88, thanks for all the help! I really appreciate it! We bought some cuts that were 50% off at the grocery store today while we were doing our shopping, they were rib bones with lots of meat attached and gave one to Gunnar to see if he would like it before we invested in a raw diet... :lol-sign: After watching him go at it I am convinced that switching him to a raw diet is the way to go! He LOVED it, he chomped happily away for hours, even after all the meat was gone, normally he scarfs his kibbles then drinks a tonne of water and looks for more, lol...I'm going to keep feeding him some kibble for now though, until I do some more research and I feel confident that I know enough to provide him with a balanced raw diet

 

[BabyDane]

Feeding a Prey Model Raw diet can be VERY easy if you follow some simple guidelines when making the switch from kibble to raw. Making this transition as easy as possible is the ultimate goal, because the easier it is for the dog, the easier it is for you as well. If following the guidelines set below, digestive upset should be at a minimum! This guideline is a tried and true method of making the switch with minimal issues with dogs.

You may not stick to the guideline 100%, finding yourself taking longer or even shorter to see the desired effect at each step of the way. That is perfectly fine. Every dog out there is different and can tolerate thing at their pace. Don’t feel that if you are falling behind in the schedule that you should just give up, keep going and you will get there when you do! With all that said, I do NOT recommend skipping steps. If you skip a step you might find yourself behind by two steps. This transition is meant to be slow, and for good reason: make it easy on the dog and yourself.

Commit To Change

Make the switch, cold turkey, no pun intended! You do not want to start off your dog on raw feeding while still eating kibble. The two do not mix well together because it “confuses†the body about what it’s digesting. Feeding raw and kibble at the same time causes digestive upset and it is not recommended. If you do not want to throw away the kibble you have left, either donate it to a local animal rescue organization, they probably need it more than you do, or finish it.

Make the decision to switch and stick to it. This is a gradual process that takes patience sometimes, so keep that in mind. Remember that you are doing this because it IS the best thing that you could ever do for your canine companions.

Prepare yourself.

You will need to get the appropriate supplies needed to make feeding raw as hassle free as possible. Depending on how many dogs you are switching to raw, the amount of supplies will vary greatly. We have 4 giant dogs that all eat raw, so we definitely need more room than say a person with just one Chihuahua to feed.

I recommend getting at least one small dedicated freezer even if only feeding one dog. This way you can keep stock on a bunch of different types of meat at any given point in time. Some people do just fine using the space in the freezer they use for their food, but when getting into raw feeding you will find yourself continually looking for new sources of meats. Its best to always be able to take meat on a whim, and have space to store it. For example, lets say you come across someone on craigslist that is wanting to get rid of some elk meat, but they have 20 pounds of it. You should be able to take it all off their hands and repackage it into meals to last a long time so that you are not feeding anything but elk for 2 weeks straight. Keep in mind that you will also have a stash of chicken, turkey, pork, fish, beef, etc that needs to take up space as well!

Chest and standup freezers are both available on craigslist on a regular basis, and usually if you look hard enough you can find some really good deals.
You need to think, and prepare how you are going to store the meat in the freezer. Some people package meat into individual meals or into packages that are several days worth of food. Looking at containers is a good thing so you can plan out how many will fit in your freezer, etc. I prefer using containers that hold 2 days worth of food for our 4 dogs because they are reusable and more economical. I know others that use freezer bags as well.

Getting a scale is also a tool that you might want around in the beginning. A scale is used to measure out the amounts of meat per meal or per day.
Most importantly, set up connections with other raw feeders out there. Join forums, become active on them and gain the friendship and trust of the people who can offer you their advice and experience. Trust me, these connections are just as valuable as the health aspect is to your dog. These people will help you through all the steps of they way, tell you when you should relax or panic in a situation, in essence they will try and keep you sane through the process.

Do some research

Find raw feeding groups on groups.yahoo.com that are applicable to breed or location, there are plenty to choose from. Find a yahoo coop group and join it to get good deals on group buys and such. Find a wholesale meat distributor and set up a relationship with them, ask them if they have a program for raw feeders that they can get you signed up on (what we use for most of our meats).
You can find a list of resources on this website to make it even easier for you!

Doing a bit of Math

The feeding guideline is between 2-3% of the adult dog’s ideal body weight per day (keep in mind that this is for IDEAL weight…and that your dog might need to lose or gain some weight so adjust the amount accordingly!). For example, if a dog weighs 60 pounds, he should be getting 1.2-1.8 pounds of food per day. The 2-3% is just a guideline, and you should also take into account your dog’s energy level, age, breed, etc into account when figuring out how much to feed, which just might mean you would be giving more like 4% per day.

I will be honest here, we have never measured anything out. I find it much easier to just keep an eye on body condition, if they are looking heavy I cut back or vice versa. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with measuring different cuts of meat out in the beginning so you can get a feel on how much to feed. We know exactly how much to feed from just experience, as you will once you get the hang of it!

If starting a puppy, this takes a bit more math. Start off feeding 10% of its current weight, meaning if a puppy weighs 10 pounds, feed 1 pound per day. If this puppy is supposed to be 60 pounds full grown, its ideal amount of food per day is 1.2-1.8 pounds per day. Once the puppy reaches ~18 pounds, or the 3% amount of adult body weight, you should back the amount down the 2-3% for normal feeding. You will only be feeding 10% for a little while, which is normal. Its better to split this amount up into several smaller meals since this will be a lot of food for a little growing puppy. Remember, this is just a guideline and that every dog is different.

The suggested guideline when figuring how much to feed of what is: 10% whole, raw bones, 10% whole, raw organ meats and 80% skeletal muscle meats. This 1:1:8 ratio best represents the average amount of bone, organ and meat tissue within prey animals. The way I see it, you should be feeding some bone, some organ and mostly muscle meat. I don’t do the math to figure out how in pounds/ounces to feed of each to my dogs. I just feed things that I know are mostly meat, some bone and some organ. If you want to do the math explicitly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but you might have a hard time figuring out how much bone to meat there is in a turkey neck (which have a lot of bone in them by weight!).

What to Feed, What Not to Feed

The more the variety the better, which goes for all muscle meats, bones and organs. Feed pretty much anything you can get your hands on, but the main staples that you will find are chicken, turkey, pork, beef, and fish. There are many others out there like elk, deer, rabbit, duck, quail, bison, etc.
When it comes to organs, make sure that you feed at least liver. Liver and kidney is better. Liver, kidney, pancreas, lungs, etc is even better. Heart and gizzard are both considered muscle meats when it comes to nutrition and do not count as organ meat.

There are only a couple of precautions with types of meat. All fresh fish coming from the Pacific Northwest should be frozen for at least a few weeks to kill off a parasite that transmits a disease that is called salmon poisoning. Second, don’t feed weight bearing bones from larger ungulates, like cows, buffalo or elk. Dogs have the potential to break teeth on these bones because they are designed to carry around up to several thousand pounds and you do not want your dog to chomp down on that! Ground meats should be fed at a minimum, I would say no more than once a week. Ground meats have a tenancy to have more bacteria and don’t provide any dental benefit to your dog. Lastly, stay away from oddly shaped or cut pieces of bone, like T-bones for example. These bones are more likely to cause a blockage.

A good rule for picking out pieces of meat to feed, is that your dog should never be able to swallow anything whole without at least crunching down on it a few times to make it fit down. If your dog can swallow something whole stay away from it. The risk of choking or getting a blockage goes up if your dog can swallow it whole. For example, its not recommended to feed chicken necks or drumsticks to large breed dogs because they tend to swallow them whole. Chewing through bones is one of the biggest benefits from a raw diet, so you might as well make them chew their food! Keep in mind that dogs don’t chew their food like we do, they don’t need to. They just have to make it small enough to fit down the hatch, so don’t panic if you see your dog crunch a chicken quarter 3 or 4 times and then swallow it.

This diet is called Prey Model Raw because it is all about mimicking the diet that dogs would thrive on if they were still wild. It differs from the BARF diet by not including vegetables, fruit and dairy. There is the age old debate of whether wolves/dogs are true carnivores and should have plant matter included in their diet. We here at PMR don’t believe they are a necessity. Will they harm your dogs? Probably not, maybe just a bit of digestive upset. But are they necessary? Absolutely not.

 

[BabyDane]

Taking the Plunge

So, at this point you know what to feed, what not to feed, how much to feed, where and how you will store it, where to find good meats, have plenty of support from experienced people, set up connections with meat distributors or butchers. If so, I think you are ready to begin with the actual process!

Weeks 1 and 2

Fasting your dog one day before giving them anything raw is highly recommended, followed by a small meal of raw the first day is best. If switching a puppy to raw, it is not necessary to fast them a whole day since this is not good for them. I would recommend giving the puppy at least 6-12 hours between their last kibble meal and their first raw meal to keep the mixing of the two down to a minimum. Too much raw food all at once can be more detrimental than good. You will want to feed nothing but one protein source during this time. The most recommended thing to go with is bone in chicken parts, because chicken cheap, easy to find and easy for a dog to digest at first. I recommend feeding chicken backs for the first 2-3 days. Chicken backs are higher in bone content which the higher the bone content the firmer the stools will be because bone is a constipating agent, too much bone can cause problems but shouldn’t be an issue in the beginning. After the 3rd day I would add in chicken quarters alternating with backs, every other meal. Chicken leg quarters have a bit more meat to them, and less bone. You don’t want your dog to become constipated on nothing but chicken backs. Continue with alternating chicken backs and quarters until you have noticed consistent firm stools for at least 7 days in a row.

Don’t Panic

Hopefully at this point you haven’t seen any digestive upset! But if you have…DON’T PANIC! Dogs that have been on kibble for a long time generally have the hardest time with the switch because their bodies are not used to such a new food. Sometimes dogs go through something that some call the “detox†stage, but to me its more just a transition that the body must undergo from digesting overly processed, species inappropriate foods to whole, fresh, raw foods. During this time, digestive enzymes must change to be able to digest this new diet, and sometimes this can take up to a few weeks. Loose stool, and occasional vomiting is seen during this time, but these usually clear up within a day or so. If not, taking your dog to the vet is a good idea.
Seeing pieces of bone in stool is normal in the beginning, you will see less and less of this as time goes on. The body is in its adjustment phase and is still getting used to breaking down bones. Digestive enzymes are changing and their ability to break down bone becomes more and more affective as time goes on. Don’t panic if you see pieces of bone in your dog’s stool. Trust me, its normal.

This “detox†stage is the reason why weeks 1 and 2 are exclusively one protein source. It poses the easiest route for the body to become adjusted to a 180 degree change in diet. If you were to undergo the same change, going from mostly processed foods to fresh, whole raw foods, your body would not be the happiest in the beginning. In the long term your body would thank you immensely for the added health! Keep up the good work and stay strong. Make sure the connections you have made with your support team are there for you all along the way.

Weeks 3 and 4

At this point your dog should be doing awesome. You will even be able to notice a change in young healthy animals even. Coats looking softer and shinier. Teeth are looking bright white and clean, no more tartar, plaque or bad breath. Digestion is under control, those of you with constant diarrhea are at ease. What to do now?

Well, at this point you have probably become very excited and immersed yourself in the “raw world†looking for any possible connection for meat and what you can get your hands on. Well, keep up the research but tread lightly. While this far you have seen nothing but improvement, you can easily overdo things too early and end back up on square one. So you must be patient with adding in new things.

I recommend adding in something like turkey next. Turkey necks or wings would work great for this. Add in turkey alternating with chicken every other meal. If you don’t notice any problems with this addition, keep up with alternating one and then the other. If you have noticed a bit of looser stool, you can add in one turkey meal to every two chicken meals until you notice things are back to normal and then try and add more turkey back in. I would keep up with just chicken and turkey for at least a week of normal stools before adding in the next protein source.

The next protein source I recommend is pork or fish, either one. A lot of dogs will not eat raw fish, so you can give canned fish instead. Canned salmon, tuna, sardines or mackerel work well, but they are expensive if you have a lot of dogs to feed (canned tuna is not bone in, the rest should be). If going with pork, I would add in pork ribs or neck bones in. Add either fish or pork in the same way you did with turkey, alternating it every other meal with chicken and turkey. For example, morning meal would be chicken, evening meal is fish, then the next day the morning meal is turkey. Continue this until you notice normal stool for a week on this type of feeding schedule. Again, if you notice loose stool, go in a bit lighter on the new protein source, until you can get it in every 3rd meal without a hitch.

As you can see, there is a trend of adding in just bone in meats in this transition. Remember that bone adds bulk to their stool, keeping them nice and firm. Monitoring bowel movements is a great way to see how a dog’s body is working and responding to the food that you are giving it. So by the end of this transition you will become a poo expert!

Weeks 5 and 6

Alright, well if you added in fish last time, add in pork and vise versa. Add them in the same techniques used before during the first couple of weeks.
Week 6 I would add in beef, which is most likely not going to be bone in. Most bone in beef sources are not okay for dogs to eat because the bones are just way too dense for their teeth to crunch through. The only bone in beef source that we feed to our dogs is beef ribs, and its more of a treat and recreational chewing than a meal.

Finding beef at a reasonable cost that isn’t ground can be a tough thing. Beef heart is what we tend to feed on a regular basis because it is considered muscle meat nutritionally, but it is very rich and its affordable. Adding beef heart is a bit trickier than anything else up to this point. Not only does it not have any bone to add bulk to stool, but its super rich. I recommend giving half the amount in weight of beef heart than you normally give. In this case, less can be better. Once your dog gets used to something so rich you can add in more.

Most likely you will see some loose stool. You can feed chicken backs a meal before and after for the added bone or in conjunction with the beef heart. Then the next day just do chicken and turkey. Feed your rotation of chicken, turkey, fish, pork and beef until you see a weeks worth of normal stool.

Weeks 7 and 8

Woohoo! You’ve made it this far, don’t stop now! Unfortunately this can be the hardest part of the whole process. This is the time when you add in organ meats. Lots of dogs refuse to eat organ meat. You might find yourself having to do a bit of prep work to the organs just to get your dog to eat them. This could mean doing a light sear with some spices or feeding it to them frozen, or the tried and true method that we use of just shoving it down their throats! Organs are an essential part of the prey model raw diet. They need them so you have to find a way to get your dogs to eat them, whatever that might be. Don’t cook them all the way through because most of the nutrition is lost during the cooking process. If you do a light sear, you want to go even lighter with each time you do this until your dogs will eat it basically raw, if not 100% raw.

Unlike before this addition is just a once a week thing. The amount you will feed will be similar to what you did with beef heart because organs are very, very rich and will cause loose stool with almost every dog out there. You can feed organs with chicken backs to help alleviate digestive upset. Each new week you feed your organ meal, feed just a bit more until you can add in a full meal of organ meat or the equivalent spread over a few days. We feed organs only once and not spread out because our dogs don’t like organs. Some people feed just a little bit of organ each day with each meal, this is fine too just as long as you keep the 1:1:8 ratio of organ, bone to meat ratio in the back of your mind.

The easiest way for me to calculate the right amount of organ meals to feed so you don’t feed to much is to count how many meals you feed per week. Lets say you feed morning and night, which is what most people do. That is a total of 14 meals per week. If you are only supposed to be feeding ~10% organs that means that only 1.5 meals should consist of organ. That can be an exclusive organ meal or spread out throughout the week. Just make sure that you are getting enough organs in. They are essential to optimum health.

Continued Success

So, you have you done it. You are a poo expert and dog nutrition enthusiast. Where do you go from here?
Keep adding in protein sources that you come across. You have the tools and knowledge to know what you are doing and the support team to ask questions if you are not 100% sure about something. The more variety the better.

 

[Brattina88]

Just wanted to add that a little bit of canned pumpkin (not the pie filling, just pumpkin) can help with loose stool and upset tummies while transitioning.

 

[Norm]

Warning about kibbles, and question about raw diet

Adrienne, I'll try to help you. Please e-mail me privately with the names of the kibbles tested. Also, the nutritional classes taught in vet school are not only sponsored by the commercial food manufacturers, the instuctors are usually the sales reps for these companies.
Gunnar can eat all varieties of raw meats at this age, however, I would start him slowly. The amount to feed him depends on his weight. A growing puppy can eat up to 10% of his body weight daily, however, they usually eat @ 5-6%.
I recommend starting him off with plain ground chicken with bone for 3 days, then he can go into chicken dinner for 2 days. At this point, you can offer him a variety, but keep coming back to chicken dinner as it is the easiest to digest. The reason to begin with plain ground chicken with bone is to either eliminate or greatly reduce the possibility of diarrhea during the start of transition and detox. Plain ground chicken with bone is bland, but very easy to digest. If you plan to purchase instead of make your own, look for a product that contains only 4 ingredients; protein source, organ, REAL ground bone and a small amount of leafy greens ie: romaine lettuce or spring mix.
With such a product line, supplements are not necessary. I would use olive oil or a GOOD brand of omega 3/6/9 over his food daily.
Without running the risk of writing a novel, if you e-mail me privately, I'll answer the rest of your questions.
Hope this helps,
Norm
my e-mail: [email protected]

 

[RawFedDogs]

So now I have some questions for the raw feeders out there:

So how much meat should he be getting? he's 13 almost 14 weeks old and a Norwegian Elkhound

I would feed him ABOUT 2% of his EXPECTED IDEAL ADULT weight per day. That would be about 2lbs/day for a pup you expect to weigh 100lbs idealy when he is grown. This is only a starting point. Keep an eye on his build. If he starts getting too fat, feed less and vice versa. Remember that thin is good.

What kinds of meat should he be getting at this stage?

Pretty much what BabyDane says. Start with one protein source (I alway suggest chicken as its easy to diges and has pretty soft bones.) After a couple of weeks add another and a week later another and still another a week later. Remember the secret to prey model raw feeding is to feed meat, bones and organs from a variety of animals. Feed mostly meat, some bone, and some organs. If you are just beginning feeding raw, hold off on the organs for a couple of months then introduce them slowly.

How will know if he's getting enough?

He will get too thin if he's not. Thats when you know you need to feed more. :rofl1: Remember thin is good.

Should I feed fatty cuts, lean cuts or a combination of both?

In the beginning i would say on the lean side to help keep down digestive problems. After a couple of months, I would lean thowards the fatty side as fat doesn't bother dog's health the way it does humans. Dogs use fat the same way humans use carbs ... for energy.

How do I do this on a budget?

I've always had good luck as small independent grocery stores(not chain stores). Talk to either the owner or the butcher (often the same person). Ask him if he will sell you things in bulk. Tell him he can just add it to his normal meat order and you will pick it up the day it comes in. One thing I have found out is that it takes several months to learn how to shop for raw diet supplies. Don't get discouraged if you pay a lot in the beginning. You will learn more about shopping as time goes on.

I've heard that raw diets can be cheaper than traditional diets, but you need to know where to shop...

Correct but it takes a while to learn how to do it. I average about $.77/lb for my dog's raw diet. Can't buy much at that price in the grocery store.

Are there any risks?

Not really. No more so that feeding anything else.

What about the need for supplements, the person who put on the seminar said that supplements are not necessary when feeding a varied raw diet with absolutely no grains or kibble to block the uptake of nutrients, but I've read other places that supplements are necessary....

No need for supplements if you feed a variety of animal parts from a variety of animals, mostly meat, some bone, and some organs.

How can I learn more?

For my suggestions on beginning raw feeding, check out my web page at Skylar, Zack, and Abby on the WEB

Get the book "Work Wonders" by Tom Lonsdale. You may download the book for $9.95 from Tom Lonsdale - Over 150,000 eBooks - eBookMall or order hard copy either at Welcome to Dogwise.com - Dog Books or at Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more (cheaper).

A few informative web sites are:
Skylar, Zack, and Abby on the WEB
Raw Fed Dogs
Raw Feeding FAQ
The Many Myths of Raw Feeding
Raw Meaty Bones
http://http://dogfoodchat.com/forum/

Join the yahoo rawfeeding group at rawfeeding : Raw Feeding for dogs and cats! You will get more useful practical information here than all the books combined. It's a very active group with over 12,000 members who all feed raw.