Want to talk about Packs
- Thread starter fizzdoggy
- Start date
This works for some dogs, and some families, but not all. I think that there are some aspects that it is not our choice of whether or not certain dogs are 'alpha' over others. It's natural for a young puppy to follow or look to an older adult to see how to react to certain things when they are looking. It's also natural for submissive dogs to let others go first and follow how they lead...
When fixing problem behaviors I usually break it down so it is easier for me and the dogs.
Is Jackie doing anything that possibly provokes these attacks?
Who usually starts the fights?
Is there a lot of growling/warning before the first bite, or is it attack first, vocalize later?
As for the fight that started in the bed; I've seen dogs do this before -- one dog moved and startled the other from sleep who woke up biting without hesitation. Does that seem possible in your situation?
There has been an upset in the group, and it is going to be stressful until all of the dogs are used to the fact that Jackie is there to stay.
I second the opinions on obedience training -- working one at a time, then 2, then 3 . . . And I think some solid down stays could help reduce heightened states by telling the dogs what to do instead of what not to do. This would bring their attention to you -- the real leader
When fixing problem behaviors I usually break it down so it is easier for me and the dogs.
Is Jackie doing anything that possibly provokes these attacks?
Who usually starts the fights?
Is there a lot of growling/warning before the first bite, or is it attack first, vocalize later?
As for the fight that started in the bed; I've seen dogs do this before -- one dog moved and startled the other from sleep who woke up biting without hesitation. Does that seem possible in your situation?
There has been an upset in the group, and it is going to be stressful until all of the dogs are used to the fact that Jackie is there to stay.
I second the opinions on obedience training -- working one at a time, then 2, then 3 . . . And I think some solid down stays could help reduce heightened states by telling the dogs what to do instead of what not to do. This would bring their attention to you -- the real leader
I agree in that there are times, (which I am not aware of by personal experience), that having an "alpha dog" would come in handy. Are there any "mushers" or sled dog racers out there?
A working farm pack, might also need a different dynamic. Any hearders out there, too?
Here, we are talking about dogs living in a very close environment with humans. And there is only one leader in order to keep the peace. The human leader.
If "jostling for position" is clearly not allowed by you, chances are they won't do it. (Insert daily one hour, structored leadership-walk here!). Otherwise, you never know who might try for second in command. We're talking dogs at various levels of maturity here, yes?
A working farm pack, might also need a different dynamic. Any hearders out there, too?
Here, we are talking about dogs living in a very close environment with humans. And there is only one leader in order to keep the peace. The human leader.
If "jostling for position" is clearly not allowed by you, chances are they won't do it. (Insert daily one hour, structored leadership-walk here!). Otherwise, you never know who might try for second in command. We're talking dogs at various levels of maturity here, yes?
I agree about the sled dogs and such and even in other applications. In fact, even with my dogs and me. I mean....I am not the leader in every single situation. What I'm talking about when I say leader are rules. A seeing eye dog is a leader when he's doing his thing. A search and rescue dog is a leader or when a dog is tracking. My own dog, my Doberman is leading me in some instances...when he's "protecting" me. He's using his own head and making judgements. This is why I hate over domineering, harsh, compulsive training, as it tends to remove that incentive to think for themselves and use some judgement....and why I favor motivation and reward training, basically.
So, it's hard to say really....who is leading whom at all times, because it changes. But....when it comes to competition between two or more dogs where it becomes a situation where the dogs are not following "instructions," then you can have a problem of out of control pets. They have to know that certain rules that you've set up have to be complied with. If I put a very high value toy out inbetween my two male dogs, I am asking for trouble. So, I avoid putting them into a situation like that in the first place. But if something comes up where I see a "snarky" attitude just on the horizon, (lol) I will intercept and do something about it...etiher remove whatever is the catalyst or if I don't know what that is, will herd one of the dogs over and out of the way and use my "eh-hem" firm voice, as in....."don't go there." I have very little trouble with my dogs, but from time to time, I see a potential for a little something... which I am adamant about preventing. I won't allow it to escalate into anything close to any type of fight.
So, it's hard to say really....who is leading whom at all times, because it changes. But....when it comes to competition between two or more dogs where it becomes a situation where the dogs are not following "instructions," then you can have a problem of out of control pets. They have to know that certain rules that you've set up have to be complied with. If I put a very high value toy out inbetween my two male dogs, I am asking for trouble. So, I avoid putting them into a situation like that in the first place. But if something comes up where I see a "snarky" attitude just on the horizon, (lol) I will intercept and do something about it...etiher remove whatever is the catalyst or if I don't know what that is, will herd one of the dogs over and out of the way and use my "eh-hem" firm voice, as in....."don't go there." I have very little trouble with my dogs, but from time to time, I see a potential for a little something... which I am adamant about preventing. I won't allow it to escalate into anything close to any type of fight.
WOW ... what a wonderful wealth of feedback!!! Some sources have been cited that I will definately follow up on reading....
Clarification:
Angelique - Dogs are not varying levels of maturity. Read previous post for specifics of each dog. Have 1 Momma and 4 siblings.... some say this is a recipe for disaster... but thats my pack and I love them.
Brattina88 - I dont think Jackie had anything to do with starting the first fight as he is usually under the covers with Kisses and the others dont want to be under the covers. I think he got thrown to the bottom of the pile during the inital fight. And yes, you are spot on, I think it could have been triggered by someone being startled awake. The other 2 fights started during pile ups at the window and fence. Jackie (still injured - mea culpa - see progress update) yelped during a bump/jostle and that set them off. There has never been any warning/stiff legged/growling type of escalation to a fight ... they have both happened during heightened arousal where a united bark has melted down.
Progress update:
Jackie is on the mend. Still tender in spots but healing nicely.
Jackie is seperated in another room while no one is home.
All wear collars 24/7.
Only 3 dogs loose in the yard at a time ... Daryl is never with Jackie in the yard. (more on Daryl later)
Have increased amount of walking - group and individual. Frequent smaller walks seem to be as beneficial as big walks - just getting togged up and going to the end of the drive helps to keep us happy.
Have installed 5 tethers throughout living room. Close enough so each dog can see eachother ... but cant reach. Use these tethers for feeding, to sort out dogs when organizing walks, and in case of emergency (came in handy during the last fight).
No barking or playfighting in the house. Nip the action in the bud (with squirt bottle - voice was not being respected - now all I have to do is say pssssst and they stop and then substitue a behaviour ...
At this point all we have mastered is come and sit ... but I can make them do it individually -or- as a group. My trainer is coming the next 2 weekends and I will suggest we start working on down/stay.
We are back to sleeping in the bed together - BUT - I have put the mattress on the floor and ringed it with dog pillows. Dogs are starting to go to pillows by choice instead of being crowded. We can still touch each other, but have room to shift around. I am also working on making a dog "go to a pillow".
Daryl - has been exhibiting nervous/anxious behavior ... either its new or I just never noticed it before. Careful to keep him from "escalating", also have been doing TTeam and Rescue Remedy. Seen vast improvement in the last 5 days.
Alpha Dog:
Agree that I am over all dogs and am stepping up to give more structure and leadership. However, in watching the pack, it is clear that Fizz is over the other dogs. I wonder if this is because she is the mother?? None of the siblings challenge her reprimands....
NILIF
This philosohy has helped ALOT. I make them do something for anything ... sit for your leash, come to your tether, even a simple hug. They seem to love it.
Clarification:
Angelique - Dogs are not varying levels of maturity. Read previous post for specifics of each dog. Have 1 Momma and 4 siblings.... some say this is a recipe for disaster... but thats my pack and I love them.
Brattina88 - I dont think Jackie had anything to do with starting the first fight as he is usually under the covers with Kisses and the others dont want to be under the covers. I think he got thrown to the bottom of the pile during the inital fight. And yes, you are spot on, I think it could have been triggered by someone being startled awake. The other 2 fights started during pile ups at the window and fence. Jackie (still injured - mea culpa - see progress update) yelped during a bump/jostle and that set them off. There has never been any warning/stiff legged/growling type of escalation to a fight ... they have both happened during heightened arousal where a united bark has melted down.
Progress update:
Jackie is on the mend. Still tender in spots but healing nicely.
Jackie is seperated in another room while no one is home.
All wear collars 24/7.
Only 3 dogs loose in the yard at a time ... Daryl is never with Jackie in the yard. (more on Daryl later)
Have increased amount of walking - group and individual. Frequent smaller walks seem to be as beneficial as big walks - just getting togged up and going to the end of the drive helps to keep us happy.
Have installed 5 tethers throughout living room. Close enough so each dog can see eachother ... but cant reach. Use these tethers for feeding, to sort out dogs when organizing walks, and in case of emergency (came in handy during the last fight).
No barking or playfighting in the house. Nip the action in the bud (with squirt bottle - voice was not being respected - now all I have to do is say pssssst and they stop
and then substitue a behaviour ... At this point all we have mastered is come and sit ... but I can make them do it individually -or- as a group. My trainer is coming the next 2 weekends and I will suggest we start working on down/stay.
We are back to sleeping in the bed together - BUT - I have put the mattress on the floor and ringed it with dog pillows. Dogs are starting to go to pillows by choice instead of being crowded. We can still touch each other, but have room to shift around. I am also working on making a dog "go to a pillow".
Daryl - has been exhibiting nervous/anxious behavior ... either its new or I just never noticed it before. Careful to keep him from "escalating", also have been doing TTeam and Rescue Remedy. Seen vast improvement in the last 5 days.
Alpha Dog:
Agree that I am over all dogs and am stepping up to give more structure and leadership. However, in watching the pack, it is clear that Fizz is over the other dogs. I wonder if this is because she is the mother?? None of the siblings challenge her reprimands....
NILIF
This philosohy has helped ALOT. I make them do something for anything ... sit for your leash, come to your tether, even a simple hug. They seem to love it.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2005
- Messages
- 61
- Likes
- 0
- Points
- 0
When i was working on the farm, i had the opportunity to observe what it consider to be a proper pack dynamic. This dynamic was held together by the existance of the alpha dog. This dog's devotion to its master was absolute. It literally worshipped the farmer.
I once saw the farmer working a younger dog. He'd had trouble with it before, ignoring commands, pushing sheep in the wrong direction. In this instance the older, alpha dog was waiting in the ute. It watched the pup disobey several times, then it leapt out of the truck and full on body slammed the pup, knocking it flat. The farmer calmly repeated the command. The pup ignored him and was flattened again. The next time, the pup obeyed instantly. The older dog went to the boss for a quick pat and returned to the ute.
My point is, if you work WITH your alpha dog (and if you have more than one dog, you have an alpha) then your pack will run a lot smoother.
I once saw the farmer working a younger dog. He'd had trouble with it before, ignoring commands, pushing sheep in the wrong direction. In this instance the older, alpha dog was waiting in the ute. It watched the pup disobey several times, then it leapt out of the truck and full on body slammed the pup, knocking it flat. The farmer calmly repeated the command. The pup ignored him and was flattened again. The next time, the pup obeyed instantly. The older dog went to the boss for a quick pat and returned to the ute.
My point is, if you work WITH your alpha dog (and if you have more than one dog, you have an alpha) then your pack will run a lot smoother.
The point I was making about the dogs not all being at the same stage of developement, was in regards to what may happen if one of the pups is a "top dog" personality, and decides to challenge "mom", when they reach maturity. Mom may only be top dog right now, because she's the mom dog.
I see by your latest post, you may already realise this could happen. Are you keeping a daily journal of the interactions between the dogs as they grow?
Molly,
Cool story! Thanks for sharing that one. I always wonder about pack dynamics in the working dog world. I've heard a bit about this with sled dogs, but my experiences have to do almost exclusively with household pet dogs.
I see by your latest post, you may already realise this could happen. Are you keeping a daily journal of the interactions between the dogs as they grow?
Molly,
Cool story! Thanks for sharing that one. I always wonder about pack dynamics in the working dog world. I've heard a bit about this with sled dogs, but my experiences have to do almost exclusively with household pet dogs.
Last edited:
I'm glad Chazhound is being of some help to you
I'm also glad that you're working with this trainer. This is obviously something that can't be fixed overnight, but it sounds like you're making great progress so far. Here is a link I've had for a while. To be quite honest, I haven't read every word of it, but it has some interesting points
Family Feuds --
a new approach to dogs fighting within the household
I'm also glad that you're working with this trainer. This is obviously something that can't be fixed overnight, but it sounds like you're making great progress so far. Here is a link I've had for a while. To be quite honest, I haven't read every word of it, but it has some interesting points
Family Feuds --
a new approach to dogs fighting within the household
B
Have you heard about "hierarchical relations between dogs living in one family"?
I found some interesting info here http://dog-behavior-training.com/
I found some interesting info here http://dog-behavior-training.com/
I have an acquaintance (friend of the trainer who mentored me) with 8 working dogs, four are Border Collies, two are Kelpies, one is a Kelpie/ACD mix and one is an Aussie. The dogs live together, eat together and do fine together with very little "butting in" from their handler. I have seen these dogs together and there is a definite pecking order there. The head dog is a large older Aussie male named Moe and he is also also the head dog on his cattle. This boy keeps everyone in line, helps the new pups fit in and breaks up fights. The dogs "beneath" him don't seem to have much of an order -- I only noticed one alpha bitch, but even she listened to Moe.
If the handler gave a command and another dog in the pack didn't follow it, Moe would be on that dog in a heartbeat. I don't think the handler ever, ever gave a correction to his dogs - Moe took care of it if they screwed up or ignored him.
All of the dogs also knew when it was time to work. They all had their place, and if a pup or a new dog didn't know the listen and messed things up, the dog nearest them would correct the newbie's mistake.
Outside of work, the pack was more relaxed. There were always things that were never allowed and the dogs knew it -- New dogs would get chewed on for ever going near the cattle without being told, fighting over little things like food or toys was promptly broken up by the rest of the pack. Other than that, they got along very well. A few whole raw chickens or turkeys would be given to them for a quick meal and there wasn't any squabbling over them. It was actually apparently normal for two or three dogs to all be chewing on the same thing.
It was really neat to watch, and those dogs worked like a well-oiled machine. Definitely not what you see in the average pet household.
If the handler gave a command and another dog in the pack didn't follow it, Moe would be on that dog in a heartbeat. I don't think the handler ever, ever gave a correction to his dogs - Moe took care of it if they screwed up or ignored him.
All of the dogs also knew when it was time to work. They all had their place, and if a pup or a new dog didn't know the listen and messed things up, the dog nearest them would correct the newbie's mistake.
Outside of work, the pack was more relaxed. There were always things that were never allowed and the dogs knew it -- New dogs would get chewed on for ever going near the cattle without being told, fighting over little things like food or toys was promptly broken up by the rest of the pack. Other than that, they got along very well. A few whole raw chickens or turkeys would be given to them for a quick meal and there wasn't any squabbling over them. It was actually apparently normal for two or three dogs to all be chewing on the same thing.
It was really neat to watch, and those dogs worked like a well-oiled machine. Definitely not what you see in the average pet household.
Although my pack is not a "working" group, I can see this "traffic cop" behavior in Fizz (momma). Since someone needs to be in charge while I am not there, it seems to make sense to honor her position.
Brattina88 - Good material ... I am definately going to print out, review in depth and share this with my trainer this weekend!!!
Angelique - A journal is great advice. I thought I knew my dogs (so not true!!!) but I am learning so much new about them every day!! For instance:
Now that the noise level has decreased and I am more attentive I have noticed that Jackie has a very different voice than everyone else ... he takes more after his "houndy" father where everyone else takes after thier "yippy" mother. Everyone speaks if they want to go in/out and I havent noticed by thier actions. Last night Jackie was outside and barked to come in ... I was delayed {{it happens}} so he barked again with a bit of a houndy yodel. Well that put everyone inside on alert and when he came in he was inspected throughly from nose to tail by all. I am definately going to keep tabs on this...
Progress Update:
The TTeam work and Rescue Remedy has really helped Daryl on his tether and in situations where he gets anxious.
Walking 3 dogs at once {{purpose = exercise and wee-wee}} and accidentally lost hold of Wallace's leash. He took off - I bellowed WALLACE SIT - and guess what ... HE STOPPED AND SAT!!! Red letter day!!!
Brattina88 - Good material ... I am definately going to print out, review in depth and share this with my trainer this weekend!!!
Angelique - A journal is great advice. I thought I knew my dogs (so not true!!!) but I am learning so much new about them every day!! For instance:
Now that the noise level has decreased and I am more attentive
I have noticed that Jackie has a very different voice than everyone else ... he takes more after his "houndy" father where everyone else takes after thier "yippy" mother. Everyone speaks if they want to go in/out and I havent noticed by thier actions. Last night Jackie was outside and barked to come in ... I was delayed {{it happens}} so he barked again with a bit of a houndy yodel. Well that put everyone inside on alert and when he came in he was inspected throughly from nose to tail by all. I am definately going to keep tabs on this...Progress Update:
The TTeam work and Rescue Remedy has really helped Daryl on his tether and in situations where he gets anxious.
Walking 3 dogs at once {{purpose = exercise and wee-wee}} and accidentally lost hold of Wallace's leash. He took off - I bellowed WALLACE SIT - and guess what ... HE STOPPED AND SAT!!! Red letter day!!!