One of the reasons I am getting aquainted with this site is that I want to connect with other folks who have more than 2 dogs in thier home. I have 5 and we have been just fine up to now, but have started to have some issues. Dont see a forum specifically for folks with packs .... can we get one started??
Want to talk about Packs
- Thread starter fizzdoggy
- Start date
I have 2 females now, and I will be getting a male on Friday. I have had 4 dogs at a time (2 males and 2 females). It is very rough. There was lots of fighting over who got to sleep where and who got to drink first (even though they all had their own water dishes they preferred to only drink out of one). Are they all spayed/neutered. That helped ours a little bit, but not much. I found obedience training and NILIF training helped more.
thanx for the support ... OK ... here's an overview:
5 dogs ... mother (3 yrs old) and 4 siblings (1 female 3 males ... 2 yrs old).
All spayed/neutered on time.
Indeterminate mixed breed:
Mom - long hair, sheltie type mix, excitable and dominant (25 lbs).
Dad - was a travelin' dog. Resembled and mini-pin but large (30 lbs)
Daryl - male ... first born ... largest of all siblings (45 lbs). Short hair with shepard like features (picture posted in the gallery). Tends to be nervous/anxious.
Wallace - male ... last born ... smallest of all siblings (25 lbs). Short hair with sharp features. Tends to be snappy/yappy.
Kisses - only female sibling (30 lbs). Short hair with sharp features. Broke her leg as a tiny puppy and required lots of special attention. Subsequently rather spoiled and demanding .. but very cute and loving.
Jackie - had found a home, but was returned a year later due to problems in the home (people problems ... not with him). 35 lbs ... he is the dog everyone is ganging up on.
We have been going along fine for 2 years (Jackie has been back for about 8 months) without alot of structure {{my bad}}. Had lots of playfighting andd barking allowed. We all sleep in one big pile. 3 weeks ago a fight broke out in the night ... I have no idea how it started. I threw all dogs off the bed and Jackie ended up on the bottom of the pile and they set on him. The more he screamed the more they attacked. Managed to get them off and seperated Jack. Next day I found a trainer who specailzes in packs and agression. She got me started on clicker training and other environment/routine remediation. Meanwhile integrated Jackie back in the pack in hopes that it was an isolated incident. Not so, have had 2 more fights where Jackie was attacked. After each fight Jackie wants to be back with the pack as soon as possible. There is no animosity, growling, etc between fights at all ... they are best of buds. Have been keeping him seperated when no one is home and never out in the yard with more than 2 others at a time.
Question to juliefurry ... what is NILIF training??
5 dogs ... mother (3 yrs old) and 4 siblings (1 female 3 males ... 2 yrs old).
All spayed/neutered on time.
Indeterminate mixed breed:
Mom - long hair, sheltie type mix, excitable and dominant (25 lbs).
Dad - was a travelin' dog. Resembled and mini-pin but large (30 lbs)
Daryl - male ... first born ... largest of all siblings (45 lbs). Short hair with shepard like features (picture posted in the gallery). Tends to be nervous/anxious.
Wallace - male ... last born ... smallest of all siblings (25 lbs). Short hair with sharp features. Tends to be snappy/yappy.
Kisses - only female sibling (30 lbs). Short hair with sharp features. Broke her leg as a tiny puppy and required lots of special attention. Subsequently rather spoiled and demanding .. but very cute and loving.
Jackie - had found a home, but was returned a year later due to problems in the home (people problems ... not with him). 35 lbs ... he is the dog everyone is ganging up on.
We have been going along fine for 2 years (Jackie has been back for about 8 months) without alot of structure {{my bad}}. Had lots of playfighting andd barking allowed. We all sleep in one big pile. 3 weeks ago a fight broke out in the night ... I have no idea how it started. I threw all dogs off the bed and Jackie ended up on the bottom of the pile and they set on him. The more he screamed the more they attacked. Managed to get them off and seperated Jack. Next day I found a trainer who specailzes in packs and agression. She got me started on clicker training and other environment/routine remediation. Meanwhile integrated Jackie back in the pack in hopes that it was an isolated incident. Not so, have had 2 more fights where Jackie was attacked. After each fight Jackie wants to be back with the pack as soon as possible. There is no animosity, growling, etc between fights at all ... they are best of buds. Have been keeping him seperated when no one is home and never out in the yard with more than 2 others at a time.
Question to juliefurry ... what is NILIF training??
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R
NILIF is Nothing In Life Is Free.
You can do a search on it and find a good bit of info, and this link describes it pretty well, ecen tho it has a different title.
http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm
You can do a search on it and find a good bit of info, and this link describes it pretty well, ecen tho it has a different title.
http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm
My problems seem to be triggered by what my trainer calls misplaced aggression. I have remediated my environment and routines (as much as possible) to reduce heightend states (barking, playfighting, pile ups etc...), introduced more exercise, and seperate jackie when not supervised .... But feel like we are walking on eggshells.
An option would be to find Jackie a new home, but we all really love him. Also, if I remove him from the equasion I am afraid they will choose someone else to turn on and my pack will one by one implode.
I want my dogs to be able to bark and run and play but I am afraid......
An option would be to find Jackie a new home, but we all really love him. Also, if I remove him from the equasion I am afraid they will choose someone else to turn on and my pack will one by one implode.
I want my dogs to be able to bark and run and play but I am afraid......
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I would recommend researching the techniques being used by Cesar Millan.
He maintains a pack of up to 50 dogs at a time. Including pits, rotties, and many other breeds. I have been very impressed with what this man has achieved, and have attended one of his seminars in CA.
He has a show on the National Geographic channel called "The Dog Whisperer". If you do a google search of "Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer", this should take you to some sites which contain his basic philosophies.
See if anything he has to say, makes sense to you.
I'm not suggesting you use his hands-on techniques without the help of a professional, but what he has to say about dog psychology, canine communication, leadership, and the "power of the pack", is quite enlightening.
Good luck!
He maintains a pack of up to 50 dogs at a time. Including pits, rotties, and many other breeds. I have been very impressed with what this man has achieved, and have attended one of his seminars in CA.
He has a show on the National Geographic channel called "The Dog Whisperer". If you do a google search of "Cesar Millan Dog Whisperer", this should take you to some sites which contain his basic philosophies.
See if anything he has to say, makes sense to you.
I'm not suggesting you use his hands-on techniques without the help of a professional, but what he has to say about dog psychology, canine communication, leadership, and the "power of the pack", is quite enlightening.
Good luck!
I have watched CM ever since the show first started. Have not gone to his website ... good advice!! Actually got some good ideas from last nights rerun about the nervous dog who exhibited agression. My Daryl has never exhibited agression (except during the fights), but his nervous/anxious behviour is something I want to work on. I was doing the same thing the folks on the show were doing ... when he gets tense I would try and calm him down with soothing affection. Gonna turn that around ... New season starts tonight 8 pm!!!
As for alpha ... Momma Fizz Dog is clearly alpha and we honor that. She is first in all things and will snap the youngsters down when they are doing something against the rules ... and they listen. My animal communicator told me she is on her last nerve keeping them all in line and wants me to be more responsible ... and I have stepped up {{at least I am trying}}. have an appt with my communicator this Sunday and will ask Fizz how she thinks I am doing.
OK ... heres a controversial subject ---> Allowing dogs to sleep in bed with you. I have had at least 1 dog in my bed ever since I was a little girl. My dogs were born in my bed and we all sleep in one big pile. I have implemented every one of my trainers suggestions (tethers, no free feeding, no play fighting/barking in the house etc....) except no dogs in bed.
New season starts tonight 8 pm!!!As for alpha ... Momma Fizz Dog is clearly alpha and we honor that. She is first in all things and will snap the youngsters down when they are doing something against the rules ... and they listen. My animal communicator told me she is on her last nerve keeping them all in line and wants me to be more responsible ... and I have stepped up {{at least I am trying}}. have an appt with my communicator this Sunday and will ask Fizz how she thinks I am doing.
OK ... heres a controversial subject ---> Allowing dogs to sleep in bed with you. I have had at least 1 dog in my bed ever since I was a little girl. My dogs were born in my bed and we all sleep in one big pile. I have implemented every one of my trainers suggestions (tethers, no free feeding, no play fighting/barking in the house etc....) except no dogs in bed.
Hi!
The only "Alpha", should be you. All dogs are subordinates. Allowing one dog to be "over" the others, could be part of your problem.
My bed rule: A dog is allowed up only when invited. My dog snuggles with me for awhile when I invite her up, but then is happy to go off to her own bed to sleep.
With a pack, I would not let any of them sleep with you. If you allow one dog to sleep with you, and not the others, it can cause problems between the dogs. Having a whole pack in bed with you, won't help them get along or establish you as the leader. This is based on your own situation, from what you have described to be the problem areas.
Well, good luck and keep watching Cesar's show!
The only "Alpha", should be you. All dogs are subordinates. Allowing one dog to be "over" the others, could be part of your problem.
My bed rule: A dog is allowed up only when invited. My dog snuggles with me for awhile when I invite her up, but then is happy to go off to her own bed to sleep.
With a pack, I would not let any of them sleep with you. If you allow one dog to sleep with you, and not the others, it can cause problems between the dogs. Having a whole pack in bed with you,
won't help them get along or establish you as the leader. This is based on your own situation, from what you have described to be the problem areas.Well, good luck and keep watching Cesar's show!
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Angelique, with more than one dog you have to respect that one will be alpha over the other. Not over you, just the other dogs. If you don't respect this then you're in for a world of trouble. From what Fizzdog has said, she already knows this. When i was living on the farm with the working dogs, there was one clearly established alpha dog. The guy who owned them fed this dog first, let it ride in the front of the truck and sent it out to work first. He never had problems with fights.
I agree and I just finished watching Patricia McConnells Dog-Dog Aggression seminar in which this was also mentioned. Besides, when people try to choose which dog is the alpha dog they often mistakenly assume that is the pushiest and/or most aggressive dog when in reality this type of dog is often actually a beta dog, an alpha-wanna-be.
Agree with this too, especially since the bed is where one of the fights broke out.
To the original poster:
Pushiness should not be accepted by any of the dogs but politeness and patience should be heavily reinforced. Practice obedience regularly with each dog individually and then with 2 dogs at a time, then 3, ect so that you have full control over all dogs even at the same time. You might want to look into Patricia McConnell's booklet and video called "Feeling Outnumbered?".
With a pack, I would not let any of them sleep with you. If you allow one dog to sleep with you, and not the others, it can cause problems between the dogs. Having a whole pack in bed with you, won't help them get along
won't help them get along
To the original poster:
Pushiness should not be accepted by any of the dogs but politeness and patience should be heavily reinforced. Practice obedience regularly with each dog individually and then with 2 dogs at a time, then 3, ect so that you have full control over all dogs even at the same time. You might want to look into Patricia McConnell's booklet and video called "Feeling Outnumbered?".
All good points. Absolutely. How can we presume to think we know what's going on in the dogs' minds as far as who is the "alpha?" We can be mistaken. It's not up to our dogs to run things. It can't be.
I wave my arm across and above all three of my dogs when they're in front of me and that is their signal that they will all be doing something simultaneously. They need to pay attention and then they're told to sit, down...a few other things and then they each get a treat. They become very attentive and get the sense that they're working all together. It gives them an outlet for that "pack" thing but in a constructive way. They are not making the rules. I am, but they're working together so to speak.
I wave my arm across and above all three of my dogs when they're in front of me and that is their signal that they will all be doing something simultaneously. They need to pay attention and then they're told to sit, down...a few other things and then they each get a treat. They become very attentive and get the sense that they're working all together. It gives them an outlet for that "pack" thing but in a constructive way. They are not making the rules. I am, but they're working together so to speak.