Walking Your Dog Off-Leash - Question.

[krisykris]

THat dog should be in a sit stay if you see it. WE have people walk past us regularly at the guild. THey can tell from a long distance that Vic isn't going to do anything. THe keep walking and he watches him go by. Then they say the best words of all..."thats a good dog" and i say yes he is. ANd he is. I can't tell you how hard we worked to get there however. One lady at the guild looks at him and shakes her head saying i don't believe it..and he is a BIRD DOG TOO! She knows pointers. He was a tremendous challange to me.

I think it's just been my experience that I have never seen a dog be 100% reliable. I don't mean that there aren't those who can do well off leash.

My neighbor has a dog who's allowed off leash in his yard all the time. We live in the city so it's not like they have a huge amount of property. She's a really good dog and barely even barks at us when we walk by w/our 4, but one random day she BOLTED from her yard into the street at us. She came back when the owner realized and called her but it did give me a mini heart attack I think lol.

 

[Chewbecca]

wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
See, this is what I HATE about this topic.

It's the same thing everytime.
The owners of the well trained dogs who can stay in a perfect heel during a tornado with flying debris or a if a wild wolf were to fly at them in attack mode, and those of us with dogs who we have to walk on leash (for WHATEVER REASON) always get into these "well my dog is better than your dog and I am a better person than you are" arguments.

Why the hell does it have to be like this?????

See, now, those with well trained dogs feel like those of us with dogs who have to remain on leash for whatever reason are insulting them by saying they don't know their dogs.
And those of us with leashed dogs feel as though those with well trained dogs are calling us useless morons who are inhibiting are dogs' abilities by wanting "the $10 training" for our dogs.

It's an insult fest and it's uncalled for. And, yes, even me with my "Do you truly know your dog" post, came off as insulting. But mine comes out of fear. I have known one too many with dogs they claim would NEVER break a heel, broke the heel and rushed at my dog. And my dog won't back down from another dog and feels "attacked" when another dog runs up to her and gets in her face. If my dog fights back or lets this other dog know she is unhappy and doesn't want a dog in her face, then she's labeled a BAD, AGGRESSIVE DOG and, why, I shouldn't own a dog with such tendencies.


I don't settle for the $10 training and such an implication is underestimating MY LOVE AND CARE for MY dog and what I think is important for MY dog. Nor am I a moron because I haven't been able to tap into my dog's inborn dog aggression issue and train in her in such a way that she can control it and look to ME for how to react. She still needs to be on leash during walks or outside in public, period. At least I love and care enough about my dog to know THAT MUCH.

It'd be one thing if I knew of my dog's issues and I was careless with her or I wasn't doing what I could do to try and get control over her issues. But I AM. As I'm sure A LOT of other people with dogs that have to be leashed, are.

During walks we work on "watch me". I do hands-free obedience training with her outside, when weather permits. My god, it's taken me a year of taking her to a trainer to get her to do a down for me! A DOWN. And that's because I KNOW that for my dog it's an uncomfortable, vulnerable position.


For the "$10 training" person, I will not judge what you do with your dogs because I think it's fabulous that you can train your dogs so well. But do NOT judge me because my dog has to be on a leash when I walk her because you HAVE NO IDEA what I have and have not done with my dog.
Do I envy that your dogs walk so well off leash? Hell yes I do, but at the same time I think it's great and can appreciate what you have put into training your dogs. But I am working on my dog and we have other things to work through before I could EVER think about working on 100% recall with her. If I don't make it through those things, I'll NEVER make it to 100% recall.

There is a "safe" way to train my dog and then there is a way that could endanger other dogs and make her sick.
If I was settling for the $10 training, would I have figured out myself that if I EVER wish to tap into Ella's dog aggression and gain control, that perhaps I should work on tapping into her ball drive and working on gaining control there, first? If I can get her to do obedience when she is in ball drive, hell, that *might* be half the battle. The triggers may be completely different from her ball drive and her dog aggression, but reaction is darn near the same. The intensity is THE SAME.
So, if I can get her to ignore her ball, or to follow my command when I have the ball, then maybe the next step could be work with distraction of another dog. But I have to perfect the ball thing first before I'll EVER consider having a dog around her.
And if it has taken me a year to get her to successfully do a "down", it may take just as long, if not longer, to perfect tapping into her ball drive. I'm not sure. Tapping into the ball drive requires distraction work as well. I do what I can in a safe way. If that's settling for "the $10 training" then you see it as you will.

 

[SizzleDog]

GREAT post, Becca! :hail:

 

[Gempress]

wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.
See, this is what I HATE about this topic.

It's the same thing everytime.
The owners of the well trained dogs who can stay in a perfect heel during a tornado with flying debris or a if a wild wolf were to fly at them in attack mode, and those of us with dogs who we have to walk on leash (for WHATEVER REASON) always get into these "well my dog is better than your dog and I am a better person than you are" arguments.

Why the hell does it have to be like this?????

Hmmm. Perhaps it's because so many people with unreliable dogs keep insisting that all dogs are unreliable and MUST be kept on-leash?

If somebody has a dog well-trained enough to be off-leash like that (and it's not against local leash law), than I personally don't see a problem.

Voodoo and Zeus aren't trained enough to be in a perfect off-leash heel. I really wish they were. I have to be honest with myself: it's not all my dogs' fault. I'm just not good enough of a trainer to get them to that point on my own.

Rather than say "You don't know my dog," and bash the people who insist its possible, wouldn't it be more productive to perhaps ask for their experience or advice? That's what I've been doing. And it has helped with the Horsemen immensely. And hopefully, it will keep getting better.

 

[Brattina88]

If somebody has a dog well-trained enough to be off-leash like that (and it's not against local leash law), than I personally don't see a problem.

Especially if the owner makes responsible choices on when it is okay to let them off leash, and at the same time know when a leash needs to be ON I don't see a problem with it.

At the same time, I have to say that I am GLAD that there are owners that accept their dogs are not reliable off leash. That admit their dogs are easily distracted, or aggressive towards dogs, etc. It seems that some owners are in denial, especially in my area. They think their dogs are reliable and then can't even get them to sit when someone else is watching LOL
Some idiots let their unreliable dogs off leash in environments that are not safe, and that's how dog fights, attacks, and other accidents occur.
And those owners ruin dog owner privileges for everybody . . .

 

[Chewbecca]

Hmmm. Perhaps it's because so many people with unreliable dogs keep insisting that all dogs are unreliable and MUST be kept on-leash?

If somebody has a dog well-trained enough to be off-leash like that (and it's not against local leash law), than I personally don't see a problem.

Voodoo and Zeus aren't trained enough to be in a perfect off-leash heel. I really wish they were. I have to be honest with myself: it's not all my dogs' fault. I'm just not good enough of a trainer to get them to that point on my own.

Rather than say "You don't know my dog," and bash the people who insist its possible, wouldn't it be more productive to perhaps ask for their experience or advice? That's what I've been doing. And it has helped with the Horsemen immensely. And hopefully, it will keep getting better.

Maybe you should go back and read my entire thread, because I'm pretty sure I addressed the insults on BOTH sides.

Or at least quote my entire post showing that.

 

[RD]

If confronted with a seriously DA looking dog and I think Eve might feel the urge to leave me to get into an argument with that dog, I clip on a leash if we can't leave the area where that dog is present. It's not that I don't trust Eve to leave the DA dog alone, it's that I don't trust the DA dog to leave her alone. If that dog starts coming towards us, previously I would've dropped her leash and let her escape, but lately I'd just use pepper spray on the dog if it was out of the control of its owner. I don't want her to feel that she needs to fight OR flee in a situation like that, I just want her to be calm and confident that I'll take care of the situation.

I've witnessed a smallish APBT pull its good-sized owner clear over to where I was walking my dog and try to go after her. She was in a park offleash, but I instructed her to go behind me and wait. The dog got past me and began going after her, still pulling its owner. Eve got up and ran a few feet away, changed direction and kept evading the dog while I helped the guy get his dog under control. Had Eve been on a leash, she wouldn't have been able to get away from that dog and would've fought back - and a 25lb Border Collie vs a 50lb APBT just isn't going to bode well for my little dog... Had I given her a "stay no matter what" command, she would've trusted me, stayed and been attacked. Then what would that have done, but cause her serious injury and prevent her from trusting me again.

Seriously, she's leashed quite a bit when I can't give her my 100% undivided attention. She's only a year old and while she's extremely reliable when I'm watching her closely, she is a puppy and can make mistakes if I take my mind off of her or use sloppy handling with her. So when I can't be *training* her, she's leashed.

And as far as dogs breaking their heel position goes, what the hell do people do when their dog does that? Just gasp in horror and let them get away? CALL THEM BACK! If you don't feel you can call them back under distraction then your dog has no business being offlead without further training. The recall is more important than ANY other command if your dog is off leash. I don't really have a good example of Eve's offlead recall but I posted a video thread with her doing some behaviors under very intense distraction (for the longest time, the one thing that caused her to lose all self control was a tennis ball) - a "leave it" and call-off mid chase like this in the video is the very minimum that I expect before I'll let my dog off the leash. http://youtube.com/watch?v=6MQxRcks9-g As you can plainly see, my dog isn't perfect but she is under control and I can keep her from getting the ball if I want to, without a leash, without harsh verbal corrections and without excessively repeating commands.

If Eve goes to break her heel position or wants to investigate something, I verbally correct her or tell her to leave it alone. If she were to break her heel and wander off, I'd snap her out of her distraction and call her back. That's what control is. It isn't all about following commands perfectly, it's about having a dog that will respond to your voice and not ignore you. I put just as much value on Eve's response to a low growl or a smooch noise from me as I do on her ability to heel by my side or come when she's called.

Be pro-active. If you see something about to happen, step in and prevent it. If I'm walking her past a really high-intensity distraction (whether she's on or off leash) I do all I can to get her attention and then I do something to take most of her mind OFF that distraction. Don't just let the distraction consume them so that if they get the chance, they'll run straight for it.

 

[smkie]

to me this topic is not about who can train their dog, or not, but rather CAN A DOG BE TRAINED to this level. IMO yes they can. Service dogs do this day in and day out. IF you cannot train your dog to this level, you are IMO an amateur handler and there is nothing wrong with that. Use a leash. Its freaking hard work to get a dog that far. It has to be your number one top of the list goal 24-7 forever. Not everyone is cut out for that, but if you do the hardcore work it takes, you find more in your dog then you would have ever dreamed.

 

[Island dog]

to me this topic is not about who can train their dog, or not, but rather CAN A DOG BE TRAINED to this level. IMO yes they can. Service dogs do this day in and day out. IF you cannot train your dog to this level, you are IMO an amateur handler and there is nothing wrong with that. Use a leash. Its freaking hard work to get a dog that far. It has to be your number one top of the list goal 24-7 forever. Not everyone is cut out for that, but if you do the hardcore work it takes, you find more in your dog then you would have ever dreamed.

Not all dogs are the same. I'm sure there are dogs that get eliminated from being a service dog all the time as they are unable to be trained to the level required. The OP is in the process of working with her dog - comparing your success is unfair - perhaps her dog will take longer to achieve the level you've reached.

 

[Brattina88]

Not all dogs are the same. I'm sure there are dogs that get eliminated from being a service dog all the time as they are unable to be trained to the level required.

perhaps due to the time required???

I agree, not all dogs are the same. Some take much MUCH longer

 

[smkie]

IF I had trained only a few animals i would agree. But i have spent a lifetime working more then i can count. You dont go to THAT many field trials without learning alot. A lot about trainers too. Maybe some can and some cant, i don't know, but i do believe in my heart that MOST dogs can overcome some serious behaviors if that is the number one goal of both. Being steady is just a part of it.