Voicing Opinions on Breeders?

[Linds]

How honest are you about your opinions on breeders?

This has been kinda bugging me lately. I eventually would like to breed and regardless I am part of this breed, I plan on more and more involvement as I become increasingly educated in it. Because of that I feel like I need to step carefully in what I say when people ask for my opinions on various breeders as to not step on toes and "bad mouth" people.

At the same time I feel like that's how breeders are allowed to sell to unsuspecting buyers, because people don't want to air other people's dirty laundry, keep scandals and personal opinions to themselves. They talk about it amongst themselves and people in the know but new comers don't get that insight.

On the flip side I don't want to tell other people how they should feel about different breeders, I don't particularly want it to turn around and bite me which is kinda unavoidable. Even posting this is making me kinda twitchy because everyone here knows I'm involved in Koolies and that I'm talking about C/Koolie breeders.

But, I don't like to stay quiet on opinions when asked directcly. I'm not one to ever follow someone around to bash them but when someone comes to me directly for upfront knowledge I always feel the need to censor myself and diplomatically leave out rather important details and I don't like that I feel the need to do that. It's not me.

I mean, I see it here even. Someone will post a breeder and the people NOT in the breed will reply with what they think and the people involved in the breed will step back unless they like the breeder a lot. It's like if you are knowledgable, involved, in the know etc. you are therefore required to NOT voice your opinion.

So I guess I'm asking, how do you people who are heavily involved in a breed or are breeders yourself handle this? What are your opinions?

ETA: Just noticed that this was a kinda back and forth and back and forth ramble but that's pretty much what's going on in my brain.

 

[milos_mommy]

I'm not a breeder, so this is hypothetical, but it's pretty much based on how I'd react when anyone asks my opinion on anyone.

If someone mentions a breeder, and asks what I think, I'm going to tell them what my checklist for a good breeder entails and how to make sure that the breeder is telling the truth (such as what health tests I'd look for, titles, etc. and what I expect the breeder to do as far as raising puppies). I'm going to say "I really think X is a great breeder in that breed."

If they continue to ask, and push for information about A specific breeder ("but do you know anyone who got a puppy from X and what their experience was like?" etc.) I will tell the truth. I will them that they have a reputation for not responding to emails after a puppy is purchased, or if I know someone who got an unhealthy dog from them, or if I KNOW they did something unethical to increase profits.

I'm not going to start repeating stuff I heard in the show ring about a breeder I have no personal experience with. I'm not going to say anything about someone if it's irrelevant to the health and safety of their animals and the satisfaction of the person acquiring a dog from them.

 

[Laurelin]

I am careful. Won't say anything online except for PMs.

 

[Flyinsbt]

It's really hard. I tend to not be comfortable talking about breeders too much, either good or bad. Usually, if I'm trying to steer people away from a breeder, I talk a lot about health testing.

In a private conversation, if necessary, I'll go into detail. But generally I try not to do so on a public forum. The exception being the person who sold a dog as a purebred Stafford to someone I know, which turned out to be an obvious crossbreed, and when that person went to him about it, he told her he would return her money only if she returned the dog, which he would kill. (dog was at least a year old at the time, and the owner already bonded. I'm sure the guy knew he wouldn't have to make good on that.)

If anyone brought up his name, I'd be happy to pass that story on in public. But I don't think he's breeding anymore.

 

[Xandra]

Yeah, I've thought about that too.

My personal take on it, is relay the information and the source. And I think it's fine if you very plainly state how dubious the "gossip" is. If they want your overall opinion just say something like "I've never had any contact with them but I've heard ____ and that worries me" or "She told me she bred a dog with iffy hips because he was exemplary in every other way... I'm pretty adamant about good hips throughout my dogs' lineages so I wouldn't go there" etc I might even state that doing xxx is generally regarded as unethical. But I would keep it as neutral/objective/factual as possible.

Basic rear end-covering 101, don't say anything you would feel bad about if the breeder brought it up. The most they should be able to accuse you of is being honest.

Yeah and not on a public forum. Preferably in person, perhaps in PM.

 

[crazedACD]

I'm not afraid to name names or voice my experience/opinions if asked directly or the topic comes up (privately). Of course I'm not highly involved in a breed but I'm not afraid to have a position about someone. I don't want to be the one going around being nasty about someone but if it is warranted..I'm not afraid.

This isn't exactly the same but there is a popular Terv breeder here that does herding lessons that I'm not comfortable with. And when I say popular, I mean heavily involved, she does clinics, partners with a local agility trainer, gives a LOT of lessons. I feel almost silly like I'm this lowly dog 'owner', who am I to say what this trainer is doing is wrong when no one else sees an issue. But...I'd rather be on this side of the fence than drinking the Kool Aid.

I don't feel totally comfortable publishing names on an internet forum though. I don't know why but it feels kind of wrong. I've seen people that were being talked about pop up in threads like that and I'm just..not confrontational. I like my dog forums and I don't want to deal with that. Plus the Terv breeder knows where I work, haha .

 

[Red Chrome]

I will not to hesitate to say something as long as I have proof to back it up. I will also give an opinion but it is an opinion and that is it. People need to know the information you have especially in certain situations.

 

[OwnedByBCs]

I have to be careful- Border Collie breeders are very "sue-happy" and I've been threatened with defamation lawsuits more times than I'd like to admit. Luckily, I never actually had to go through a lawsuit, but still- it actually worries me.

Even through PM... its hard. I mean, I've had people try and "spy" and ask what my opinions were on "x" breeder and if I tell them what I know or what I think, it goes back to that breeder and again.. problem.

However, with all that said: I would rather get sued 100 times over than have someone go through the heartbreak of buying from some of the people in my breed. *shrug*

 

[Kilter]

I usually don't say anything about a breeder directly, but will say something like 'as a rule, look for all the clearances done on at least 4 generations' and suggest other breeders. I think there's a lot of 'grey' areas with any breeder, there's no perfect breeder out there that is going to do everything exactly right, unless you're pretty easy going. There is some good and bad in any breeder's program and thoughts if you're educated, and what one person might think is great another might think is the worst thing going.

Or, I say things like 'I would personally like to see ....' and explain why, and then the person has the choice of deciding if that's also important to them. Or not. Or the 'I have heard' line too, depending on the situation.

I had that happen once with a local breeder who is a nasty cow on a good day. Some people were asking me what I thought of them getting a puppy from her. I didn't want to say 'really, she's a nasty cow and once you pay for the pup good luck getting the time of day out of her'. So I just said 'well I don't want to comment on HER, but will say I have more respect for breeder A, because she's been in the breed just as long but she's very down to earth, or breeder B, because she's new to the breed but has done a lot of research and I like her dogs and she's also very approachable, or breeder C because she's produced some nice dogs, does extra testing on her dogs as far as health and showing them, and she's really big on supporting puppy owners past the 8 week mark. For me, having a breeder who is really going to be there if I need them is really important, so that's what I look for'. Nothing on the nasty cow breeder really but going 'here, look at these ones and what I like about them'. They got the message, but really short of taking out billboards people still have the choice and if they want to ignore ethics, they will.

 

[OutlineACDs]

I just give people basic information.

Know what you want in a dog, look for this specific health testing, don't be afraid to ask to see proof of the testing, if you're looking for a dog that works ask for videos or go see the parents working stock.

I always tell people about the quirks in the breed and tell them that I prefer to buy from a breeder who runs their dogs together instead of kennels because of the risk for DA in this breed.

I won't say anything bad about any breeders, just tell them to look into them and how they keep/raise their dogs. Each person has different qualities that they look for and it's not up to me to make that decision for them.

If a specific dog didn't pass OFA's or something I might pass that info along, but to me, that should all be public knowledge and again it's up to the individual buyer. Just because a dog didn't pass doesn't mean he didn't continue working cattle/trialing for quite a long time, nor does it mean that any of his offspring failed OFA. You weigh the risks as you're willing to deal with them. Having a dog die young from cancer I will be asking about that in future puppy purchases. I know now, that my dog's father died of cancer, and her half brother has been diagnosed now too, younger than she was, so I'm seeing quite the family connection. So I cringe when I see frozen sperm from a dog who died of cancer being used to sire a litter, again, that's just me.

That kind of went off on a tangent. Sorry guys.

 

[SaraB]

If asked directly what I think about a certain breeder, I will for sure tell my opinion. I generally follow it with a disclaimer that it is my opinion and I'm sure that other people are happy with their dogs they have purchased from them. However, I will for sure say WHY I would/wouldn't purchase a dog from them. I absolutely do not think it's fair to leave out important details because you are worried about the potential consequences as that person may end up with a dog they are unhappy with for 10+ years. By asking other people's opinions, they are doing their research about a breeder, its up to them how much weight they should put on the opinion.

 

[AllieMackie]

Most on here will agree with me that the BC breeding world in general is rather psychotic, very much a three-way split. I stay out of it. I'm happy to share Finn's breeder info with those who want it (and if you search my posts you can find her quite easily) but she's also not very prolific. The Chaz BC folk rock. I'm very happy that we've all grown here on Chaz to accept BCs as an awesome breed in general, and to respect everyone's decisions on their breeders. I love all the BCs here, and they're all living great lives which is the important part.

Of course, I'm also not heavily invested in the BC as a breed. I'm unsure if I'd get another one (though Finnegan is my heart) and my next dog will 98% be a rescue. So my opinion's a bit different. I'm far more likely to share my opinion with those interested in getting a BC from a breeder who have little to no insight on the breed as a whole.

Of course, working so much with various rescues in the past year and a half, the rescue world isn't much better. XD The dog rescue I currently volunteer with was born due to a dramastorm between two people in a previous rescue, and we had a terrible drama incident with one person with the ferret rescue... two years ago now? It's just as wild.

 

[Toller_08]

Obviously I'm not a breeder, but as a buyer, I like to have the honest opinions of people in a breed. I don't want things sugarcoated because I don't want to end up with a dog that isn't what I wanted from a terrible breeder because other people in the know didn't feel comfortable sharing their honest opinion of a certain breeder. I think it's good to have a disclaimer such as stating that your opinion is based on your opinion and experiences only, and I'd say it in a way that doesn't make you sound mean or rude about it, but I think it's still something that should be shared.

When people ask me my opinions on my own dogs' breeders I tell them the truth. What I like, what I don't like, what I might prefer, etc. And I also give people my honest opinion of other breeders that I've either met/know/have heard about from people I know well (but not in a rumor spreading way - I hate that) in both of my current dogs' breeds. And regardless of whether not not what I have to say is good or bad, I rarely ever do it publicly.

Ultimately it is up to the person looking for a puppy to form their own opinions, but to me, it is important to let people know your honest opinion anyway as that way at least (if you didn't like the breeder/dogs) you know it's out there and the person heard it, regardless of whether they decide to go with that breeder in the end anyway. It's better for people to make well informed choices.

I get where you're coming from though. It can be hard to tell people your opinions without it coming back to bite you, no matter how nice you are about it. Especially when you're trying to get seriously involved in a breed.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

It's a dangerous road to travel but I feel in most situations hard facts and their following opinions are important to share.

However, hear say is useless and opinions on things can been seen as petty and trivial in some crowds so you must know your audience.

 

[JessLough]

If asked directly what I think about a certain breeder, I will for sure tell my opinion. I generally follow it with a disclaimer that it is my opinion and I'm sure that other people are happy with their dogs they have purchased from them. However, I will for sure say WHY I would/wouldn't purchase a dog from them. I absolutely do not think it's fair to leave out important details because you are worried about the potential consequences as that person may end up with a dog they are unhappy with for 10+ years. By asking other people's opinions, they are doing their research about a breeder, its up to them how much weight they should put on the opinion.

Pretty much this.

I mean, people are told when looking for a breeder to talk to people who got dogs from the breeder, etc. What good would it do if they don't get the truth on that persons experience? (or only gets half the truth, etc)

 

[Mina]

... I feel like I need to step carefully in what I say when people ask for my opinions on various breeders as to not step on toes and "bad mouth" people.

At the same time I feel like that's how breeders are allowed to sell to unsuspecting buyers ...

Ahhh ... there's the rub!

"Everyone" involved in our breed knows both our dog and breeder. Because of this, and breed politics being what they are, I know that anything I say, can and will be turned around and bite our breeder (who has become a very close friend) right on her proverbial arse...

On line, I try (all too often with limited success) to be as diplomatic as possible. To afford myself an extra modicum of honesty, I try to remain incognito on forums , so as to be able to speak as relatively freely as possible - especially when it comes to discussing our wonderful breed.

I understand the need to tread carefully. But I absolutely agree with you, Linds ... that this practice of not stepping on anyone's toes, helps perpetuate the ongoing "success" of (the many) poor breeders with their unsuspecting buyers.

 

[Linds]

Thanks everyone, it was interesting reading and good to see that a few others struggle/understand this too.

Most everything is word of mouth and opinions in the Koolie world currently. And they can be true or false which is why I hate spreading them. I already got myself torn into when I picked Didgie because she was merle and it was assumed I was breeding her to Traveler. So I know how bad misinformation and rumor can hurt a person.

But like I already said, sometimes it's true and sometimes you don't find out until you already have a dog from them and get burned. And I hate that.

Basic rear end-covering 101, don't say anything you would feel bad about if the breeder brought it up. The most they should be able to accuse you of is being honest.

I like that.

So I think I'll carry on as I have been. Saying nothing except for facts publicly and opinions/experience if asked privately. I really would hate to be a newcomer in a breed again though, it can be SO hard to get good information.

 

[monkeys23]

Pretty interesting and complex issue. I will say as someone looking to get their next dog eventually from a breeder (and currently/still doing research on breeders) that I'd much prefer to hear the good honest truth and not solely rely on what the breeder tells me. I'd definitely like to hear other peoples' experiences with the breeder, both good and bad, so as to form my own opinion and thus where I end up going when its time for me to buy a dog/pup. I've found the clam up effect somewhat frustrating to say the least when trying to dig up information on what my best choices will be and frankly some days I honestly want to say screw it and go get another recycled dog. That in itself says alot given how much this crap also exists in the rescue world.

 

[Aleron]

I think it is trickier when you are involved with a rare breed dog and even more so a breed that is barely in the country yet. You're dealing with a much smaller group of people and especially if you are interested in breeding, you don't want to burn bridges before you even get started.

I'm asked pretty often about Belgian breeders, litters, lines, breedings, etc. What info I give people sort of depends on who they are and why they are asking. If someone is asking me about a potential breeding they want to do, then I try to tell them as much as I know about the dogs in the pedigree both good and bad but stick to the facts and my personal experiences with the dogs. If it's someone looking for a puppy, I tend to suggest breeders or litters I would be interested in myself and why. If they are asking about a specific breeder, I will offer an opinion privately and as politely as possible if it's not a breeder I'd recommend. If I know for sure the breeder is really horrible in some way (bad contracts, keeps dogs in poor conditions, etc), I will warn people about them. Luckily, there's not a lot of breeders that fall into that category. I also will refer people to the public health databases, tell them what I personally look for and why, suggest a litter that might be more suited to their needs, refer them to a website that talks in depth about what to ask a breeder and breaks down the possible scenarios, etc. It's good to be willing to help but I think it's also important people be given additional resources to do their own homework. I also think you have to separate what is a good or bad breeder in your mind from what your personal ideal is. There are plenty of breeders I am not interested in getting a dog from that could be perfectly fine for many other people.

If you have any doubts, some things might be best discussed over the phone rather than through email which could potentially be taken out of context. A good rule of thumb is to assume anything you email to people (other than people you really know) in terms of breeders or lines or specific dogs could be forwarded to the breeders or owners of the dogs in question. And also, be willing to be totally honest about your own dogs both good and bad when asked. I find that goes a long way in terms of showing you are just someone who cares about the breed and aren't just out to badmouth other people's dogs.

 

[Linds]

I think it is trickier when you are involved with a rare breed dog and even more so a breed that is barely in the country yet. You're dealing with a much smaller group of people and especially if you are interested in breeding, you don't want to burn bridges before you even get started.

That's a very good point and very true. There is a small, yet vocal online community where everyone knows everyone. I've already burned a few bridges so far and you're right, it's not good and I don't like it.

It really is interesting though hearing your guy's experiences and opinions.