Vent (about showing)

Discussion in 'The Breeding Ground' started by mmorlino, Sep 24, 2009.

  1. mmorlino

    mmorlino New Member

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    Didn't really know where to put this... Move it if there's a better place :)

    I went to a dog show last weekend and watched. There were many beautiful dachshunds. The one who won was clearly the best conformation wise - very beautiful! (wish I had a pic!)

    But it has noticeably bad patellas. I mean, you could see the way it walked, it's feet were crossing in front of eachother. I swear if I listened closely enough I could ear the knees popping.

    I went up to the handler (who was also the breeder) afterwards and asked if the dog (an English Cream male) had patella issues, and she said he did.

    :eek:

    What a shame! As of right now, we are not required to show our clearances in shows. (is it different for other breeds?) That dog, however pretty he might be, should not be bred.

    Such a shame... There are so many wonderful show dogs out there there are passing on their poor health (sure, they may look pretty, but can they function?) and the breeders just don't give a crap. They want to win, win, win!

    That's my vent - thanks for listening!
     
  2. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    your vent is shared by many here... which is why we are so pro health testing, and continued health testing as our dogs get older.
     
  3. xpaeanx

    xpaeanx Active Member

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    and the genetic health of the dog is one of the many reasons people on this board choose to wait till the dog is at least two years old to breed.
     
  4. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Sadly, seeing dogs in the show ring with health problems is not unusual.

    That is, as was stated, why we so strongly feel that breeders should always health test and shouldn't breed at a young age - even at two, a lot of issues don't show up yet.

    It's also why some of us are very pro performance titles. A dog with patella problems is going to be limited in his ability to perform.

    People who buy from breeders who lack sufficient proof of health and ability only reinforce poor breeding practices.
     
  5. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Makes you wonder what " show quality " means . Buyers beware !
     
  6. ~Jessie~

    ~Jessie~ Chihuahua Power!

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    And this is why the TOTAL package is important, and why dogs shouldn't be bred before they're 2 years old. Most health issues show up after the dog is two, anyway.
     
  7. FoxyWench

    FoxyWench Salty Sea Dog

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    this is why i also dont worry too much about confo showing when looking for a breeder, i like to know the dogs been around a ring a few times to know that he looks like he should...but i much prefer to see titles (or in the case of companion breeds, CGC, therapy dog training and work ect, either way i think the dog should be good at whatever the dog was bred to do...if i wanted a hearding dog id buy from someone who does hearding with their dogs, same if i wanted a gun dog, ect...) and health testing is hugely important.
     
  8. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    No wondering..."show quality" means the dog's size, coloring, coat, etc are in keeping with the standard. Nothing more.

    Yup, absolutely Buyer Beware.
     
  9. planet molosser

    planet molosser CASSA

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    Breeds still bred to work are required to meet the working standard.
    OFten the standard will state serious fault for any dog that lacks this or that - that would interfere with it ability to do work.
    Not all judges breed working dogs yet they often judge them- counter productive.

    So not all shows, venues or judges are created equal . Same applies for working events.
    It it is the overhall consistant breeders that make a difference
    .

    Dogs need to meet the standard thus novice breeders ( most are not born with a ability of knowing comformation faults that can and will lead to health issues) need to learn.
    Yes in many cases you learn what NOT to do vs to do. But staying at home and just breeding dogs wont help most. I would never give up the time I spent in the trenches going to many shows. I met and networked with great people, I learned allot. I saw very good things as well as bad. Most important I learned about other breeds and how not to make the same mistakes they did.

    Dog shows are very important to novice breeders who lack mentors.
    Even experts get a chance to see new lines - meet prospect buyers or in some cases tell them this breed is NOT for them. Nothing better than in person vs tel or online.
    Does every dog shown have a serious fault NOT most do NOT.
    Since eventurally the rotation will get you under a expert that will DQ the dog.
    (unless it has became a accepted standard which is sad but indicative of that breed NOT all dog shows)
    Dogs need to meet the written standard - must be shown to qualify a working dog not win. They need to be worked and temperament tested as well as any health related issues.

    FCI judges will make you run to your drop. They dont do fancy dancy patterns and want to make you RUN , move , speed up cause they know u can hide faults by moving too slow ot too fast. They also prefer FREE stacking vs hand stacking cause hand stacking can hide faults as well.

    I require OFA or PH, a real TT CGC and or TT ATTS and a FCI rating of a expert of Excellent of Very good . Especially if I cant see the dog I want the FCI CASD expert written critiques. So I can match the dog up for faults and good points.

    Working vs showing has been a long Hatfield vs another fued.
    And you can find faults and issues with both sides.
    Ive seen dogs with hip surgeries win and compete in both show and Protection.
    And based on the massive titles these dogs got they bred the hell out of them.

    As breeders we should breed a titled dog but also not ignore the NON titled dog that is working as a predator dog.I would want a pedigree of long lived working dogs NO titles which can reflect money and politics as well as the paid training.
    Then I would take that no body WORK um and BEAT all the show dogs with a working dog.
    Which I have done and boy the show breeders hated me.
    But as long as the breeders understand their motives and stick to guns they can and will do as much good as the bad.
     
  10. mom2dogs

    mom2dogs New Member

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    Also keep in mind that dogs being shown are not always going to be bred, especially males.

    Where was the show held? Was it an AKC event?
     
  11. mmorlino

    mmorlino New Member

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    Unfortunately in dachshunds, conformation "quality" and function are not always hand in hand. The "show dachshund", while beautiful, cannot do it's intended job because it is so limited in it's functions.
     
  12. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    I think most people here would agree with you. So I guess the question is if you believe this then what are you doing about it? If that makes sense... Do you hunt your dogs?
     
  13. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    So you don't show. Your health testing if done isn't listed on the OFA. You said before you don't hunt.. and your dogs have no companion sports titles.. So what is it that you are doing to improve the state of your breed?
     
  14. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    At Strider's first FCI show there were a few ladies there with GORGEOUS dachshunds, imported from Germany and France from working lines. All the dogs competed in earthdog trials....and get this....they had MUSCLE TONE! That was seriously the first time in my life I've seen a dachshund with muscle tone. They were amazing. One 9 yr old female place 2nd above Strider in the hound group.

    They told me they'd tried competing in the AKC, but the style of the euro working dogs was so different, their stood out like sore thumbs among the AKC dachshunds. Kind of like, if you took a DDR shepherd and entered it alongside those Great American Hocktrotters people here call German shepherds.

    You should try FCI shows. They are way fun. The judge gives you a written evaluation of your dog and they are very laid back. It's a nice low key way to get into showing.

    ETA: Also remember, that particular dachshund won on that day because the judge felt he was the best representative there. You can have 10 crappy entries, and the judge still has to pick one of those crappy dogs to take best of breed. On the other hand, you can have 10 stellar dogs, and still only one can win.

    And not every judge is an expert in the breed they are judging, or has the same tastes within the standard. That's why you need three majors under three different judges to get an AKC CH.

    What I love about FCI is that they are judged against the standard and not each other. If all the dogs suck, nobody gets a good rating. If they are all phenominal, they may all get good ratings.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2009
  15. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    I know many doxies that have breed ring championships and titles in field work (earth dog stuff) and also titles in obedience and agility and tracking. They absolutely can do both.
     
  16. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    In my opinion, *show breeders* do just as much damage to a breed as the pet breeders/BYB whatever you want to call them, if not more in pursuit of a ribbon.

    Genetic testing is only as good as those who DON'T knowingly breed an effected dog or a dog/bitch is a known carrier that produces a high number of effected offspring and it happens all the time and if people don't know that then they need to learn it.

    There is more to a dog than conformation Titles............especially when those Championships can be purchased by hiring the best handler, therefore the handler is being judged and not the dog they are leading. It is called Judging up the Leash and it happens ALL the time.

    People are jumping all over this new member of chaz and she isn't the first or sadly the last, she isn't doing things completely right BUT SHE IS DOING A LOT OF THINGS RIGHT and that isn't good enough for those who are not in a position to judge........there are people on here that don't do everything right either but because they are liked members they get a free pass or they made the mistakes when THEY started to breed and you (meaning the members of Chaz) just don't know about them.

    OMG, my first litter.............from a less than ideal bitch with no testing. Because I was a newbie and NOT one breeder that I spoke to at that time required that I test although at that time testing was just coming into vogue. They would take my money and run. I had shown that bitch ONCE and I went to that show solely to ask the judge from England who was being toted as one of the worlds leading terriermen, if he owned my girl would he breed her? Yes, was the answer. So I did. No one said I should prove her as a working dog first either.

    My first litter, I have NO regrets, they got me into showing dogs in everything and they won me a lot. Yep I rushed out and did the testing and continue to test, yep I started hunting my dogs as well, loved it. And I learned a ton, met wonderful people ........and I got some amazing mentors. And guess what, there are people out there who compete in conformation that think my dogs are trash because of conformation and pedigree.............and just because I don't (although I have) compete in the show ring.

    We all start somewhere and we shouldn't forget where we came from or how we got started. Most of us make mistakes whether it be as breeders.........or when training our first dogs and those of us that love our breeds learn, sometimes by trial and error and some of us are more successful than others. So why is it that everytime someone comes to this forum that so many forget where they came from and from where they started from???

    Molly, I hope you change your mind about breeding yound.........I hope that you prove your dogs before breeding them and in the working field would tickle me because I know that so few doxie people continue to hunt with them and I hope you gets some wonderful mentors that will help you grow as a dog person and as a breeder.
     
  17. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Of course we all start somewhere. And I am sure that every breeder on this board is continuing to improve what they do (or at least I hope so) Like anything its a journey.

    I think the difference would be that when you didn't know better, you still knew there were things to learn. And when you learned you changed. You didn't go around saying "no" that was how things should be.
     
  18. MafiaPrincess

    MafiaPrincess Obvious trollsare Obvious

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    I'd think after 10 years in doxies she's have improved something by now. Knows enough to say she health tests. If she doesn't knows enough to lie about it.

    I really can't find anything she's doing right honestly. She cares about her dogs and they aren't living in kennels in the back 40.. guess that's right..

    Can't prove any health testing
    Breeds under 2
    Doesn't show, but promotes her pups as show prospects
    Doesn't work them sport of field

    I'm still looking for what it is that's 'right'..
     
  19. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Really???? :rofl1:
     
  20. Laurelin

    Laurelin I'm All Ears

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    To me the biggest issue is breeding so young. That's what gets me hung up the most. If that part at least were fixed, I'd feel a lot better about this. I honestly don't care about showing, but I do think it's somewhat deceitful to be selling dogs as show dogs when you aren't showing or their parents aren't showing, etc.

    I understand no one is perfect but those two things really don't sit well with me.
     

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