Upset Tummy due to Unbalanced Raw Diet?

Discussion in 'Dog Health Care' started by Crowsfeet, Apr 13, 2009.

  1. Crowsfeet

    Crowsfeet facetious.

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    Well, it's about a month and a half after Hap' has started a raw diet.

    Initially his stools were pretty compact and super firm, but lately(or more than, on and off for the past two weeks!) he has had some serious diarrhea. I definitely know I should have been on this earlier(2-3 weeks!), but sometimes life does not permit things as such. As he is acting absolutely average aside from his stools, I was going to schedule him with a raw savvy vet this week(if I can find one!), but I'm reconsidering depending on what kind of help I can get here.
    (As a side note, I'd like to get him a check-up with a raw-informed vet eventually, regardless-)


    Basically, I feel as though I know what the issue is. I purchased a serious amount of Chicken-backs to start. Happy gets a serving of 1.2 lbs. a day, and a few ounces of organs at the beginning and the end of the week. They are all pretty meaty chicken backs. Occasionally I've also purchased some other miscellaneous meat for him to try during the week. But, I feel as though because there has been a lack of variety, however subtle, his system perhaps isn't functioning as expected? Also, maybe I should be feeding him small amounts of organ every other day instead of "bulk" amounts at two separated times a week?

    This month I thought I would purchase half a month's supply of chicken, and then introduce variety(quail, turkey, duck, beef, pork, fish..) Maybe something like turkey for half of a day's meal, then chicken, and carry on that way for the rest of the week, substituting something else?

    If anything, any advice will be appreciated!
    I also always appreciate any literature references(online or off) on the subject of raw diets.

    Also, does anybody supplement with veggies, or other diet supplements?
    How and why?
     
  2. pitbullpony

    pitbullpony BSL Can Be Beaten

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    Are they also very fatty chicken backs; lots of skin will cause diarrhea due to fat content.

    Organ meats will also cause diarrhea; but I don't know the amount you are feeding is doing it.

    There is a raw feeding group on yahoo that's pretty good.
     
  3. Izzy's Valkyrie

    Izzy's Valkyrie Very Food Agressive

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  4. Psyfalcon

    Psyfalcon Fishies!

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    Toss in a soup bone. Depending on how fatty or meaty the food is, there is just nothing solid to collect. Apparently some wolves would have constant diarrhea except for all the hair they ingest.

    Try adding some filler or a few extra soft chewing bones.

    (and where did you get your chicken backs?)
     
  5. Crowsfeet

    Crowsfeet facetious.

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    Oooh, they could be too fatty, hm..

    Also, I'm a member of the Yahoo! Raw Group :)
    (And thank you Izzy! I will probably cross-post sometime)

    And I will try some filler- that sounds like what he might need :eek:

    Also, I get my chicken-backs from Willamette Valley Meats ;) If you buy them in a bulk package of 20 lbs., they're about 70 cents a pound. 60 for 40 lbs.

    If you join this WAzzuOR_BARF : Washington/Oregon BARF Yahoo! Group, you can search in their files for an entire list of their items and prices.
     
  6. BoxMeIn21

    BoxMeIn21 Yeah. So?

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    If the chicken backs are real fatty, I might be inclined to think that they are the culprit. But are you only feeding chicken backs with a little bit of organ? That would be really unbalanced - aside from the fat, that is a lot of bone too. While it's good to stick to one protein when starting out, it's best to feed all parts of said protein - in your case I would mix the backs in with parts of a whole chicken. Even meaty chicken backs don't really provide that much meat when you look at how much bone is in them, so I would definitely throw other meatier chicken parts into the mix like quarters, breast pieces, non-bone meals and organs. I am not sure what school of thought you subscribe to, but personally I prefer prey model feeding - my meals usually consist of 80% meat/10% bone/10% organ...
     
  7. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Boxmein... see I disagree with 80% meat/10% bone/10% organ... is a prey model. If you have ever met (or dissected) a wild rabbit, groundhog, deer etc.. they are not even close to that much meat (% wise) Domestic animals 'maybe' but that includes the torso bones...


    For example a deer weighing 160 pounds will be 125 pounds when field dressed (organs and skin removed) That is 78% of the deer and you have bones in there...

    Now this includes bones. Notice how wild game has less meat? A prey model diet would mimic prey.. not domestic animals. But even so that % is for whole carcass which is less than field dressed. (no organs skin or head)

    -DEER & DEERHUNTING Magazine

    So assuming the live weight of the deer was 211 pounds (using the typical calculation to find the live weight from the FD weight) and you get about 60 pounds of boneless meat...

    that gives you a percentage of 28 percent meat. Even if you rounded that up to 30% you are still a LONG way from 80%

    I do feed a lot of chicken backs, and turkey necks.. the necks seem to have more meat. Try adding a little ground beef if he tolerates beef well. Its leaner and will bump up the meat content. (though I don't go anywhere near 80%)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2009
  8. BoxMeIn21

    BoxMeIn21 Yeah. So?

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    Interesting Dekka, thanks for the breakdown. That makes me curious because any of the prey model info I've found has always described the ratio to be at 80/10/10. Now these are chickens and farm raised rabbits that I feed, which have more meat on them than if they were in the wild. Maybe that's were the ratio is a little bit off?
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2009
  9. Island dog

    Island dog New Member

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    That's interesting information. Thanks.
     
  10. Crowsfeet

    Crowsfeet facetious.

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    You guys are all lovely, thank you ! :p

    I have "roughly" been feeding prey model, roughly because it seems as though a lot of the models of any raw diet seem so ambiguous sometimes?

    I'm doing a little shopping for my puppy(um, dog, I guess) today, and I think this is the path I might take..

    12 lbs. of Ground Chicken(to provide a base and familiarity from last month?)
    8 lbs. of Pork Necks
    10 lbs. of "Complete", varied types of Raw Chubs(complete because they not only include meat, but organ and bone as well)
    And maybe some Dogzyme-y stuff!
     
  11. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Even if you take a farm raised animal you will still only be about 40%. Rabbits are still very lean as meat animals go. Weigh a live rabbit, then get a dressed weight (carcass minus head, skin and innards) and still realize you still have ribs, spine, shoulders, and pelvis (and I think humerous and femur)

    Animals are a lot more bony than I think a lot of raw feeders realize.
     
  12. BoxMeIn21

    BoxMeIn21 Yeah. So?

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    Very interesting. Thanks for the info. Do you have any resources you could share along these lines? I'd be interested in learning more. :)
     
  13. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    Don't have any of them saved at the moment. (google is your friend :D) Talk to your local butcher (if they do the whole process from killing to selling) Try the experiment with the rabbits you get.... I found that the dressed ready to cook whole chicken (so rib cage, spine, wings, pelvis, thighs) is 70% its live weight. So even if you say only 15% of that is bone weight you are only at 55% meat.
     
  14. Crowsfeet

    Crowsfeet facetious.

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    The prey-model-break-down you guys are talking about is really interesting-

    Dekka, do you feel as though or know if wolves will completely consume their prey? I feel as though the 80/10/10 ratio seems about right because wouldn't a wolf avoid consuming the weight-bearing bones(pelvis, femur, etc.) of an animal? Could this account for that estranged percentage? My boyfriend and I were discussing it and he brought about this point.

    Perhaps the ratio more could be more accurately presented with something like 60/20/20?
     
  15. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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    That is definitely a possibility. Keep in mind that the commercial strains of poultry and rabbits are much heavier muscled than "regular" chickens, turkeys, rabbits, etc. much less the wild ones. If you take the production cornish cross broilers and raise them out, they should reach market weight in 7-9 weeks. Their muscle tissue growth is so unbalanced with the rest of their bodies that they usually die of heart failure or simply can not get up and walk around if left to grow too long. They get too heavy and their joints fail.

    The plump juicy roasters and chicken breasts we have grown to expect on our gorocery shelves are nothing like the chicken our great grandparents ate.
     
  16. Psyfalcon

    Psyfalcon Fishies!

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    That might be it (I seem to remember it).

    However, "our" wolves are really somewhat anomalous when compared to the rest of the wolf subspecies. Only in the northern climates do they rely that much on large ungulates. Elsewhere, they will often prefer smaller prey.
     
  17. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    I have seen a number of 'left overs' from coyote and a few wolf kills with sheep and calves. There is NOT a lot left when they are done. Hide (more with calves and lambs than with wooly sheep) is eaten as is often parts of the skull. Pelvis seems to be tastey...


    I would still think if you are basing it on wild prey you are still doing well if you say they are 50% meat. Domestic animals a little more. But domestic meat animals are much fattier and 'meaty' than a primal diet (for humans or dogs)
     
  18. Romy

    Romy Taxiderpy

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