Unhealthy breeds
- Thread starter Michiyo-Fir
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As for the BCs being healthy thing...I guess I just know a lot of BCs with orthopedic issues (toes seem to be an area of weakness, quite a lot of hip issues that are often not reported to OFA, etc.)...
Seems like some of the breed proported to be healthy in terms of being long-lived are also some of those that are notorious for temperament instability. I guess no breed is perfect :s
It's not one particular area of the body or one particular type of cancer. Soft-tissue sarcoma is the single leading cause of death in the breed, which has its own particularly aggressive histiocytic sarcoma. Malignant histiocytomas are rare in canines except in FCRs and Berners. Some of the likely cancers are treatable while others are, for all intents and purposes, not. At least one study has found that approximately 50% of a sample population of FCRs died on average around age 8-9 from any one of various cancers...those who survived past the 9th year mark were likely to make it to 12-13. Granted that was a couple hundred dogs from volunteers, but still.
There is a rather extensive study going on, and studies have been going since at least 1990, regarding various cancers in FCRs but for now, this is more or less where things stand. A lot of the problems stem from the gene pool collapse around the world war...FCRs fell out of favor for a while (ironically the Golden Retrievers, which were at one time the same breed as FCRs until the yellows were split off, retained their popularity) and so now all FCRs are very closely related, though still not as closely as other breeds (I've seen at least one report that Tollers are so closely related that any Toller is nearly genetically equivalent to at least a half-sibling of any other Toller, but haven't researched it myself).
Seems like some of the breed proported to be healthy in terms of being long-lived are also some of those that are notorious for temperament instability. I guess no breed is perfect :s
It's not one particular area of the body or one particular type of cancer. Soft-tissue sarcoma is the single leading cause of death in the breed, which has its own particularly aggressive histiocytic sarcoma. Malignant histiocytomas are rare in canines except in FCRs and Berners. Some of the likely cancers are treatable while others are, for all intents and purposes, not. At least one study has found that approximately 50% of a sample population of FCRs died on average around age 8-9 from any one of various cancers...those who survived past the 9th year mark were likely to make it to 12-13. Granted that was a couple hundred dogs from volunteers, but still.
There is a rather extensive study going on, and studies have been going since at least 1990, regarding various cancers in FCRs but for now, this is more or less where things stand. A lot of the problems stem from the gene pool collapse around the world war...FCRs fell out of favor for a while (ironically the Golden Retrievers, which were at one time the same breed as FCRs until the yellows were split off, retained their popularity) and so now all FCRs are very closely related, though still not as closely as other breeds (I've seen at least one report that Tollers are so closely related that any Toller is nearly genetically equivalent to at least a half-sibling of any other Toller, but haven't researched it myself).
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It doesn't have to be either or and shouldn't be as far as having a breed you like or a breed that has at least average health. FCRs could become drastically healthier if the breeders made it a priority for a few generations instead of accepting that their dogs are really wonderful until they die between 6-8 years old of cancer (which is ok I guess because hey they're healthy until they get cancer at a young age). It's like everyone in the breed just decided it was ok for their dogs to have such short life expectancies. I just can't wrap my mind around why that is acceptable.
Hmm I may have my outcross projects mixed up! I know there is something going on involving Cavs being outcrossed though. IMO they need it, there's no other way to fix the problems they currently have and I wouldn't think continuing to produce puppies which are highly likely to inherit fatal health problems is an acceptable long term solution for the breed or the owners of them.
I do think we'll see more forward thing on this in the future.
Often closely related breeds are not the way to go. For Belgians the breeds more closely related tend to either have the same health concerns or they have shorter lifespans or wouldn't maintain the overall good joint health the breed has. I don't think that matters honestly. I mean you can't get much further apart than Corgis and Boxers and that turned out ok LOL Although with a toy, I would think you'd have to breed to another small breed or you may end up having a hard time keeping the size consistent. I wonder about Toy Russian Terriers as an option for them? I *think* they're supposed to be pretty healthy overall. http://russiantoydogclubofamerica.org/index.php/breed-health/warnings
The funny thing about people's aversion to outcrossing is it has been done in purebred dogs already for the purpose of bringing in different physical traits. Ever wonder why the modern show setters resemble Afghans? Or modern Shelties look so much like little Collies?
Hmm I may have my outcross projects mixed up! I know there is something going on involving Cavs being outcrossed though. IMO they need it, there's no other way to fix the problems they currently have and I wouldn't think continuing to produce puppies which are highly likely to inherit fatal health problems is an acceptable long term solution for the breed or the owners of them.
I do think we'll see more forward thing on this in the future.
Often closely related breeds are not the way to go. For Belgians the breeds more closely related tend to either have the same health concerns or they have shorter lifespans or wouldn't maintain the overall good joint health the breed has. I don't think that matters honestly. I mean you can't get much further apart than Corgis and Boxers and that turned out ok LOL Although with a toy, I would think you'd have to breed to another small breed or you may end up having a hard time keeping the size consistent. I wonder about Toy Russian Terriers as an option for them? I *think* they're supposed to be pretty healthy overall. http://russiantoydogclubofamerica.org/index.php/breed-health/warnings
The funny thing about people's aversion to outcrossing is it has been done in purebred dogs already for the purpose of bringing in different physical traits. Ever wonder why the modern show setters resemble Afghans? Or modern Shelties look so much like little Collies?
Breeds prone to health issues worry me. As much as I love English/French Bulldogs and Dobermans, I'm not sure I could ever pull the trigger on owning them. I'm very interested in owning a Mudi some day, but the rarity and small gene pool (and seizure issues) scare me as well.
Both of my breeds (chihuahuas and border collies) are "long lived"- border collies generally live 12-15 years, and chihuahuas can live 12-20 years. I know that doesn't guarantee they will have a lifetime free of health issues, but I'm hoping that with both being "healthy" breeds will mean I have a better chance avoiding anything major.
Both of my breeds (chihuahuas and border collies) are "long lived"- border collies generally live 12-15 years, and chihuahuas can live 12-20 years. I know that doesn't guarantee they will have a lifetime free of health issues, but I'm hoping that with both being "healthy" breeds will mean I have a better chance avoiding anything major.
This is what bothers me too, I think. Oh, French Bulldogs can't breath, mate, or whelp - just how the breed is! Oh, my Neo needs its eyelids tacked up, just how they are! At some point, everyone seems to decide that it's just "how they are" and stop trying. Very few people seem to standback and go, "Gee, that's a problem."
It's breeds where significant health problems become excepted breed traits that really get me going.
It's breeds where significant health problems become excepted breed traits that really get me going.
Right now, my Rylie is 6- I couldn't imagine even begin to accept that the "average" age for her breed to live is 6-8 years old. To me, that would be devastating to lose a dog at such a young age as an average! I'm hoping she lives at least another 6-10 years. Chihuahuas in the mid to late teens aren't uncommon.
Of course there are outliers with any breed, but I like the reassurance of knowing the history of my breeds both easily living into their teen years.
Of course there are outliers with any breed, but I like the reassurance of knowing the history of my breeds both easily living into their teen years.
Health is a big thing with me in determining my next breed.
I know for sure I want an Aussie and a Bernese Mtn Dog. I know BMD have very short lives (on average 7-8 years), but to me, even 7 years is still worth going out and getting one. I love this breed, and to be honest, if the breed had an average of 5 years, I'd still get one. I know a couple of BMD that have lived 9-12 years, every dog is different. Plus it helps to get in with the right breeder.
I love Dobes, and I would jump on the chance to get one in a heart beat, if their health issues were not so wide spread.
My heart is set on Aussies, and even though they have health issues, they have less than most breeds. Plus aussies are AWESOME.
I know for sure I want an Aussie and a Bernese Mtn Dog. I know BMD have very short lives (on average 7-8 years), but to me, even 7 years is still worth going out and getting one. I love this breed, and to be honest, if the breed had an average of 5 years, I'd still get one. I know a couple of BMD that have lived 9-12 years, every dog is different. Plus it helps to get in with the right breeder.
I love Dobes, and I would jump on the chance to get one in a heart beat, if their health issues were not so wide spread.
My heart is set on Aussies, and even though they have health issues, they have less than most breeds. Plus aussies are AWESOME.
Im pretty lucky that terriers are a pretty hardy breed. My last Westie died at 14, which IMO is a nice age to live till. And I hope Teagan lives just as long.
Now health of a breed is somthing that I think about, but its not a deal breaker. I am getting into mollosers and CC and Boerboels usually live till 10 give or take there is still bloat, HD and other issues to deal with, but hopefully going with a breeder that does the right heath test and looking at how long their dogs parents lived and so on and so forth that will give you an idea what age your dog will live till.
Now health of a breed is somthing that I think about, but its not a deal breaker. I am getting into mollosers and CC and Boerboels usually live till 10 give or take there is still bloat, HD and other issues to deal with, but hopefully going with a breeder that does the right heath test and looking at how long their dogs parents lived and so on and so forth that will give you an idea what age your dog will live till.
I wouldn't seek one out but I'd own a breed that had a reputation of dying early. I mostly agree with Greenmagick there, it's going to hurt when they die, however it is more sad if you have to euthanize or they are uncomfortable at the end.
As for the ones with a million little problems, please, God, no. lol that's such a drag.
I totally agree with everyone said open the studbook up a bit (or a lot), and whoever said besides just not wanting to deal with the issues, I wouldn't want to support such a ridiculous breeding practice.
As for the ones with a million little problems, please, God, no. lol that's such a drag.
I totally agree with everyone said open the studbook up a bit (or a lot), and whoever said besides just not wanting to deal with the issues, I wouldn't want to support such a ridiculous breeding practice.
I definitely agree about terriers being hardy breeds.
My Scottie, Bear, probably would of lived forever if he didn't die from a snake bite.
I would STRONGLY consider getting another Scottie, I miss my Bearzy and I loved him as a breed (and individual) plus my grandma owns his daddy, Mickey, and let me tell you, for a terrier, Mickey is one smart dog and is more in tune with my grandma than I have EVER seen in any other breed/human relationship (with the exception Bear and an Aussie I fostered named Blue).
My Scottie, Bear, probably would of lived forever if he didn't die from a snake bite.
I would STRONGLY consider getting another Scottie, I miss my Bearzy and I loved him as a breed (and individual) plus my grandma owns his daddy, Mickey, and let me tell you, for a terrier, Mickey is one smart dog and is more in tune with my grandma than I have EVER seen in any other breed/human relationship (with the exception Bear and an Aussie I fostered named Blue).
Having an intelligent conversation on the need to outcross in the FCR for health reasons and to improve the limited gene pool resulting from the extreme gene pool depression that occurred during the world wars is one thing. Claiming that FCR breeders and owners don't give a **** and are prancing around singing Oh Happy Day! as many of their dogs die young, on the other hand, is a baseless potshot and downright idiotic. I would have expected better from you, Aleron.
Not intended to be a potshot at all and certainly not anything against you personally. Besides, I don't believe you breed FCRs? Hardly anything an owner can really do to improve the situation. Or even just one breeder. I don't think FCR owners don't care about or are happy about their dog's short life expectancies at all. I do think the breeders involved seem too complacent, too willing to just accept the issues. I'm not saying they are bad people or bad breeders because of it, I just don't understand how it can be so acceptable for so long. I do understand though that change isn't easy and is slow, especially with such a taboo subject in the dog world as outcrossing to another breed. I just hope for the sake of low number breeds and people who love them that it does come. If it does not, these breeds will not survive.
"While individuals working alone can not solve breed problems, organizations such as the AKC in conjunction with National breed clubs (parent club) can develop programs that can make a difference. Using new technologies and ideas, stronger education programs can be developed. It is especially important that they reach the novice who continues to use outdated trial and error breeding methods. For too many, the words “pedigree analysis†remains just a phrase. Unless the novice gets help, breed problems will worsen and the number of carriers will continue to increase. As their frequency multiplies, more dogs will become inferior. Out of this scenario comes a breed’s worst problem. One that first begins by repeating itself over and over until it prevails. It begins when breeders can be heard to say, “it’s just another problem of the breedâ€. This scenario, when repeated year after year, serves as a reliable signal that skill levels are dangerously low."
http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/breed_dilemmas_and_extinction.pdf
"While individuals working alone can not solve breed problems, organizations such as the AKC in conjunction with National breed clubs (parent club) can develop programs that can make a difference. Using new technologies and ideas, stronger education programs can be developed. It is especially important that they reach the novice who continues to use outdated trial and error breeding methods. For too many, the words “pedigree analysis†remains just a phrase. Unless the novice gets help, breed problems will worsen and the number of carriers will continue to increase. As their frequency multiplies, more dogs will become inferior. Out of this scenario comes a breed’s worst problem. One that first begins by repeating itself over and over until it prevails. It begins when breeders can be heard to say, “it’s just another problem of the breedâ€. This scenario, when repeated year after year, serves as a reliable signal that skill levels are dangerously low."
http://breedingbetterdogs.com/pdfFiles/articles/breed_dilemmas_and_extinction.pdf
So what you are saying is that with your great involvement in the breed, you haven't seen progress therefore those in the breed are clearly complacent and accepting of the problems?
I'm not arguing your quoted statement. Yes, clearly the entire breed club needs to unite in order for something like an outcross to succeed. I just have a problem with your premise. The one that goes that the only reason there is still a problem is because the people in the breed don't care enough. Nevermind the decades-long studies being conducted, the vast collection of samples from people who despite their grief make arrangements before and as their dogs pass to ensure their tragedy can at least provide information to help others in the breed understand the nature of the cancers in play and how they can be better treated and are being passed genetically.
My issue is not in admiting there is a problem. My issue is not that we do, absolutely, need to do more. My issue IS this idea of yours that the people most involved in the breed and the breed's welfare are just fine with the cancer rates and mortality in the breed today.
I'm not arguing your quoted statement. Yes, clearly the entire breed club needs to unite in order for something like an outcross to succeed. I just have a problem with your premise. The one that goes that the only reason there is still a problem is because the people in the breed don't care enough. Nevermind the decades-long studies being conducted, the vast collection of samples from people who despite their grief make arrangements before and as their dogs pass to ensure their tragedy can at least provide information to help others in the breed understand the nature of the cancers in play and how they can be better treated and are being passed genetically.
My issue is not in admiting there is a problem. My issue is not that we do, absolutely, need to do more. My issue IS this idea of yours that the people most involved in the breed and the breed's welfare are just fine with the cancer rates and mortality in the breed today.