I have to say that I agree with everyone who said that it doesn't look like aggression.
Before the corgis I had a VERY aggressive St. Bernard/Collie mix, and when she was being aggressive it was nothing like Spook in that video. My Mia was never allowed to engage with other dogs, but if she got close to a dog every muscle in her body would tense, she'd stand high on her front legs, tail wagging slowly back and forth over her back. She never would have put her head under another dog.
Before the corgis I had a VERY aggressive St. Bernard/Collie mix, and when she was being aggressive it was nothing like Spook in that video. My Mia was never allowed to engage with other dogs, but if she got close to a dog every muscle in her body would tense, she'd stand high on her front legs, tail wagging slowly back and forth over her back. She never would have put her head under another dog.
T
I am by no means an expert!!!
However, I watched the video a couple of times and will give my honest opinion.
Spook's body language appears very loose and wiggly, almost puppy-wiggly. His tail was wagging the whole time... It was wagging sort of high (though I don't know how he normally carries his tail, so its hard to be sure) but other than that he wasn't showing many dominance related behavior - at one point he was practically under Marq lol.
The bite looked like play to me as well. He wasn't getting much of a reaction from Marq, and probably wanted more. No doubt Marq growled at him... looks almost as if an adult dog is correcting a younger dog. How old are both of them again? Marq's tail was also wagging, but his ears were kind of flat - IMHO he looked like he felt trapped.
I am led to believe that if he wanted to hurt Marq, and was truly aggressive he would have already done so. Also, its hard to tell from the video because it ends after the nip and the growl, with them being pulled apart.
I agree with this:
edited to add:
I'll try and find my books ASAP
I was going to look for it today, but my friend (the one w Mia) wanted me and Maddie to go out to a couple pet stores with her and Mia for socialization, and to see how her training is progressing
However, I watched the video a couple of times and will give my honest opinion.
Spook's body language appears very loose and wiggly, almost puppy-wiggly. His tail was wagging the whole time... It was wagging sort of high (though I don't know how he normally carries his tail, so its hard to be sure) but other than that he wasn't showing many dominance related behavior - at one point he was practically under Marq lol.
The bite looked like play to me as well. He wasn't getting much of a reaction from Marq, and probably wanted more. No doubt Marq growled at him... looks almost as if an adult dog is correcting a younger dog. How old are both of them again? Marq's tail was also wagging, but his ears were kind of flat - IMHO he looked like he felt trapped.
I am led to believe that if he wanted to hurt Marq, and was truly aggressive he would have already done so. Also, its hard to tell from the video because it ends after the nip and the growl, with them being pulled apart.
I agree with this:
edited to add:
I'll try and find my books ASAP
I was going to look for it today, but my friend (the one w Mia) wanted me and Maddie to go out to a couple pet stores with her and Mia for socialization, and to see how her training is progressing
In all the times that they have interacted Spook normally will get along nicely until the initial sniffing and introduction is over - then he starts barking and lunging. He does not "play" this way with any of our other dogs, or any dogs at the humane society. If it were consistent with his play behavior, I'd consider that he was just trying to play, but it is not. Spook is not outrightly aggressive, just reactive towards intact dogs - which I have learned is actually quite common.
I'm not the type to label a dog aggressive at the first chance I get. We attempted to meet them on neutral grounds, and we've got them to the point where Spook tolerates Marq when he's in sight instead of barking frantically. And we've let them get used to each other slowly with the use of crates and control. I wouldn't label him aggressive at all, actually - but just reactive towards intact males. He gets along with all other males(that we've introduced him to) that are neutered. In fact, I'm so weary of labeling dogs reactive or aggressive, (and aware that tension on a leash can send vibes to a dog - so remind myself try and keep a loose leash whenever introducing dogs) that the first initial meeting, despite the barking and lunging, I still let them interact. When he began to bark more aggressively and made contact, that was clear enough to me that it wasn't play - he just doesn't play that way with any other dog.
It has been said here that it was only play - I gave Spook the benefit of the doubt, and especially since they'd been getting along a lot better and attempted to give it a second try - just as most others have encouraged me to do so here. However, now I am being criticized for choosing to do something I have only been encouraged to do on the forum. You say it is only play, yet you still criticize me for allowing an "aggressive" dog to interact with Marq - please just make up your minds. If you say it is only play, then stop criticizing me for it. If you actually think it is aggression, then at least come out and say it instead of labeling it as play - at least then your criticisms would be partly legit.
I reiterate, the only time Marq and Spook are allowed to see each other is when one or the other is confined.
Spook may not be here much longer anyway. We may have found him a home *crosses fingers* and not have to wait for the rescue to have a foster home open up.
Tessa, you're taking this way too personally.
Nobody on this forum said that any of your dogs are aggressive. We've all agreed that from the looks of the clip, none of the dogs are aggressive. But, since we aren't there and may be missing something, we are taking your opinion seriously and advising what you should be doing if YOU believe that a dog is aggressive.
I also did not hear any aggressive barking in the clip, I heard a lot of play barking.
Dogs play differently with different dogs - sometimes they know they can be rough and tumble, other times they try to be gentler and calmer. Maybe Spook thinks he can be rougher with Marq than the other dogs, or maybe he's trying harder to get Marq to play with him.
Hope his new home works out!
Nobody on this forum said that any of your dogs are aggressive. We've all agreed that from the looks of the clip, none of the dogs are aggressive. But, since we aren't there and may be missing something, we are taking your opinion seriously and advising what you should be doing if YOU believe that a dog is aggressive.
I also did not hear any aggressive barking in the clip, I heard a lot of play barking.
Dogs play differently with different dogs - sometimes they know they can be rough and tumble, other times they try to be gentler and calmer. Maybe Spook thinks he can be rougher with Marq than the other dogs, or maybe he's trying harder to get Marq to play with him.
Hope his new home works out!
Tessa, what do you want from us? You post a video to show us how Spook does not get along with Marq. When I suggest safety precautions that should be used when having two dogs who do not get along interact, you tell us there's no aggression. But when we say that it looks like play, that's wrong too.
What are we supposed to be saying?
What are we supposed to be saying?
I also watched the video a couple of times and did not see anything that worried me (and I am terrified of dog fights). The pawing with the feet looked like a play initiation, as did the barking and nipping. I'm not saying they won't fight. But I couldn't see anything that worried me.
I think if you are going to introduce them, you have to have a leash on both dogs and keep them loose. The way you were holding Spook's collar will tend to make dogs aggressive when they would have been fine loose. I also agree that no other dogs should be loose. Let the two dogs focus on each other so they are not distracted or agitated by the other dogs. And elegy is right- if there is a fight, you might be surprised at who jumps in.
I think if you are going to introduce them, you have to have a leash on both dogs and keep them loose. The way you were holding Spook's collar will tend to make dogs aggressive when they would have been fine loose. I also agree that no other dogs should be loose. Let the two dogs focus on each other so they are not distracted or agitated by the other dogs. And elegy is right- if there is a fight, you might be surprised at who jumps in.
To me it looks like Spook wants to play with Marq. But, by having the dogs under tight control (holding onto them), Marq doesn't have the chance to respond. Neither dog looks like they're going in for the kill though (I have one of those here).
I would bring both dogs outside into the yard alone, on leash, then drop the leashes and see what happens. Remember Marq doesn't HAVE to like Spook.
Spook reminds me of a pup we had in boarding a while ago. She was bouncy and loved to play with everyone. One morning she bounced on an older dog, got told off lightly, didn't listen, bounced again, got told off more (pinned on her back and lots of noise), and that was that. I watched for a few minutes to make sure there wasn't an issue, and sure enough the puppy found another rowdy to play with and off they went - making sure to watch where they were going of course. No problems the rest of the weekend.
The point being, I don't see any real signs of aggression, more just Spook being a bit 'rude' to Marq. Have extra hands there and just put the two dogs out (Yes, your other dogs are fine, but pack fights happen and besides being scary, it sets up more issues when it happens once), drop the leashes and let them interact that way.
Or, if Spook is leaving anyway, just keep them separate for the week or two that's left.
Lana
I would bring both dogs outside into the yard alone, on leash, then drop the leashes and see what happens. Remember Marq doesn't HAVE to like Spook.
Spook reminds me of a pup we had in boarding a while ago. She was bouncy and loved to play with everyone. One morning she bounced on an older dog, got told off lightly, didn't listen, bounced again, got told off more (pinned on her back and lots of noise), and that was that. I watched for a few minutes to make sure there wasn't an issue, and sure enough the puppy found another rowdy to play with and off they went - making sure to watch where they were going of course. No problems the rest of the weekend.
The point being, I don't see any real signs of aggression, more just Spook being a bit 'rude' to Marq. Have extra hands there and just put the two dogs out (Yes, your other dogs are fine, but pack fights happen and besides being scary, it sets up more issues when it happens once), drop the leashes and let them interact that way.
Or, if Spook is leaving anyway, just keep them separate for the week or two that's left.
Lana
T
NO. *I* was the one that stated he had reactive/aggressive tendencies toward Marq because Marq is intact. Everyone else was stating that it was just play. And *I* have been the one that has been taking great precautions to keep them separated. We are in constant communication in this house now and always aware if one of the dogs is loose. If they want Spook loose, they come searching for Marq and Me and warn me before they do so I don't let Marq loose, etc. They are not allowed loose together. When one is loose, the other is crated or in a room.
I NEVER said there was no aggression. I stated Spook was starting to get better. There is a difference.
I NEVER said there was no aggression. I stated Spook was starting to get better. There is a difference.
T
The problem with this theory is that when they met they both had very loose leashes. We DID let them interact, and despite the reactivity issues spook was showing, I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he wanted to play. But instead, he bit Marq not only once but twice. I love spook to death, but I have to protect my own dogs first.
Of course I know about pack fights. But when it is just between two dogs, normally the others don't get involved. And considering these are two large dogs, I can with 90% certainty say the small dogs would not get involved. However, with three people yard, close supervision, and the situation under control, a fight is just not likely to happen at all. And because they had been getting along, this is why the meeting took place - NOT to illustrate aggression(again, have already said this), but to see how well they could get along - and also to have the video to review, slow mo, etc to see what was going on and analyze it.
We don't know when Spook will be leaving. We hope we can find him a home, but if not we have to wait for the rescue to have a foster home open up. Until then, they are being kept separate at all times.
Of course I know about pack fights. But when it is just between two dogs, normally the others don't get involved. And considering these are two large dogs, I can with 90% certainty say the small dogs would not get involved. However, with three people yard, close supervision, and the situation under control, a fight is just not likely to happen at all. And because they had been getting along, this is why the meeting took place - NOT to illustrate aggression(again, have already said this), but to see how well they could get along - and also to have the video to review, slow mo, etc to see what was going on and analyze it.
We don't know when Spook will be leaving. We hope we can find him a home, but if not we have to wait for the rescue to have a foster home open up. Until then, they are being kept separate at all times.
IMO you cannot tell if a dog is aggressive/reactive in any 15 second clip - but especially when the interaction is handled improperly.
From what I can see Marq is basically powerless and as a result is extremely stressed (freezes, stiff posture, tight ears, mouth and though its impossible to tell in this clip I bet his pupils are dilated)... Not only can he not flee but he cannot communicate properly with you holding onto his collar. He attempts to sniff and offer look aways/paw lifts but by holding him so tight he cannot complete them. I am very impressed that he didn't react sooner (and when he did react it was mild)... IMO continuing to put Marq in that kind of position is a recipe for trouble (you are basically telling him that you won't protect him or his space so his reactions may become preemptive and less mild).
Spook looks like an improperly socialized dog - he's quite rude. Not only does he invade Marq's space but he ignores what distance increasing signals Marq attempts to give and crawling under his chest is very invasive.
Spook doesn't bark and paw until you say "EASY" and grabbed onto his collar. To me it looks like he is overstimulated, not aggressive. You are putting tension on both dogs collars (both of their paws end up off the ground at one point), so IMO a reaction here is not surprising.
If Spook had already "made contact" with Marq, the last thing I'd do is let them loose in the backyard with other dogs... But since you did and they ignored each other - that is BRILLIANT (very appropriate behaviour and the kind you'd want to reward/encourage and set up)... It sounds like they were communicating fine until they were forced together.
Obviously desensitization for Spook is a must. Calming curves, putting calming signals on command, rewarding calm and polite behaviour will also help. You should work on self-control exercises so you are able to call Spook off and get/maintain his attention instantly. Above all, set him up for success - do not let him practice inappropriate behaviour.
Good luck and I hope he finds his forever home!
From what I can see Marq is basically powerless and as a result is extremely stressed (freezes, stiff posture, tight ears, mouth and though its impossible to tell in this clip I bet his pupils are dilated)... Not only can he not flee but he cannot communicate properly with you holding onto his collar. He attempts to sniff and offer look aways/paw lifts but by holding him so tight he cannot complete them. I am very impressed that he didn't react sooner (and when he did react it was mild)... IMO continuing to put Marq in that kind of position is a recipe for trouble (you are basically telling him that you won't protect him or his space so his reactions may become preemptive and less mild).
Spook looks like an improperly socialized dog - he's quite rude. Not only does he invade Marq's space but he ignores what distance increasing signals Marq attempts to give and crawling under his chest is very invasive.
Spook doesn't bark and paw until you say "EASY" and grabbed onto his collar. To me it looks like he is overstimulated, not aggressive. You are putting tension on both dogs collars (both of their paws end up off the ground at one point), so IMO a reaction here is not surprising.
If Spook had already "made contact" with Marq, the last thing I'd do is let them loose in the backyard with other dogs... But since you did and they ignored each other - that is BRILLIANT (very appropriate behaviour and the kind you'd want to reward/encourage and set up)... It sounds like they were communicating fine until they were forced together.
Obviously desensitization for Spook is a must. Calming curves, putting calming signals on command, rewarding calm and polite behaviour will also help. You should work on self-control exercises so you are able to call Spook off and get/maintain his attention instantly. Above all, set him up for success - do not let him practice inappropriate behaviour.
Good luck and I hope he finds his forever home!
^^^ Thank you Lissa for seeing those things. On top of Marq showing lots of stress. Low, fast wagging tail, lifting his feet and shying away from Spook. I though Spook was very rude. Most everyone on here said it was 'play behavior'. While I didn't see it as purely aggressive behavior, he was pushy and rude. Polite dogs don't approach other's with their tail held high and stiff. It was wagging, but a wagging tail does not equal a friendly dog.
I also agree w/ Lissa on everything she suggested. Take them out to a field, with an assistant and start 100 ft away from each other and walk the dogs in a parallel line. When you get to the end of the field, do an about turn and take a few steps closer to the other dog. Do this until you can walk them side by side. The more bad encounters they have the harder it will be for them to get along.
I also agree w/ Lissa on everything she suggested. Take them out to a field, with an assistant and start 100 ft away from each other and walk the dogs in a parallel line. When you get to the end of the field, do an about turn and take a few steps closer to the other dog. Do this until you can walk them side by side. The more bad encounters they have the harder it will be for them to get along.
Yeah, but you CAN be friendly and rude at the same time. Several people have mentioned, and I agree, he can just be undersocialized, which means that he wants to be friendly but doesn't really know how to do it. That's one reason why I suggested watching Marq very closely when they do interract, he's the one probably more likely to "tell off" Spook.
And I've seen a pack fight that started between two dogs, and then three other dogs who I'd NEVER think would fight (and this is after months of supervising them interracting together) also got into it and it became a REAL mess. I wouldn't want to hear of that happening to another group of dogs.
And I've seen a pack fight that started between two dogs, and then three other dogs who I'd NEVER think would fight (and this is after months of supervising them interracting together) also got into it and it became a REAL mess. I wouldn't want to hear of that happening to another group of dogs.
T
We have a dog fight about once or week. It is through such conditions I have learned that the other dogs do not get involved, and especially when it is the biggest/bigger dogs involved.
As for everyone else, I am politely asking that you please stop with the constant criticisms and instead give us some credit. We took this dog that would probably not have lived much longer in the circumstances that he was in. And we are doing everything we possibly can to keep them separated at all times. As I type Spook is enjoying his free time and Marq is crated. In an hour Spook will be crated and Marq will have his free time. It works in shifts, and that is how it has been since day one - so please stop assuming and acting as if they are allowed together. They are not. The idea was to give them some time to get used to each other, and then introduce them again. This suggestion did not work, so obviously it is something that will have to be worked out through the steps and training of desensitization.
As for everyone else, I am politely asking that you please stop with the constant criticisms and instead give us some credit. We took this dog that would probably not have lived much longer in the circumstances that he was in. And we are doing everything we possibly can to keep them separated at all times. As I type Spook is enjoying his free time and Marq is crated. In an hour Spook will be crated and Marq will have his free time. It works in shifts, and that is how it has been since day one - so please stop assuming and acting as if they are allowed together. They are not. The idea was to give them some time to get used to each other, and then introduce them again. This suggestion did not work, so obviously it is something that will have to be worked out through the steps and training of desensitization.
T
Actually, my watching closely and grabbing Spook's collar before he had the chance to bite Marq WAS me protecting him. I saw the signs, and I knew what was coming, so grabbed Spook's collar and got him away from Marq. If I had not, he would have attempted to bite Marq, but I stepped in before he had the chance - and when I did, yes because he could not bite he began to bark.
I hope you don't get offended by this question (though doubtless you will) - are you sure that these are "fights" and not just play? I know that it's really hard to see the difference most of the time (I have trouble myself). I'm just SO positive that neither dog in the video clip is showing aggression, and if that's the sort of thing that makes you think dogs are fighting, well, it's possible you're mistaken.
T
Lol. They are most definitely fights. Our dogs generally don't play with each other, but just with toys and when they do play they do not bite each other or snarl during play. They just don't play that way. It woudl be extremely hard to mistake their play for fights. Besides, you do not get punctures, blood, and even once a broken bone out of "play".
T
I never bragged. I stated the reason in which I knew that other dogs don't get involved in fights between just two dogs. There has already been a thread concerning the reason for the fights. We have a dog aggressive/reactive dog - a springer spaniel named Misha. She is fine most of the time, but when toys, bones, or even just people or her space get involved, she can be reactive.