Training opinion Please

[showpug]

I guess this thread is mainly for Creature Teacher, but I would love replies from anyone I currently have 2 pugs, soon to be 3 and a new Mastiff/Wolfhound puppy. The pugs are older adults and they get fed up with the pups rambunctious behavior at times. They teach him occasional lessons to put him back in his place when he becomes too annoying and wont leave them alone. The pugs are not acting aggressive, just dominat and I mostly view it as "teaching" him. Should I intervene when the puppy is barking at them to play and clearly annoying them so their anger does not escalate or should I allow a natural pecking order to take place so that when he ways a ton!! he knows his boundaries? And, should I allow my pugs to growl at him as a warning, or do you feel it would be better to correct them..distract him when he's being annoying? Neither the pugs or the pup is acting agressive, or harming the other, but I don't want this to escalate either Opinions please!! I will also mention that at times they do play together and have a blast

 

[YorkieLover]

This is a very good question because we are going through this right now with our youngest yorkie wanting to play with Houdini (the oldest yorkie) and he just is never in the mood. I recently started staying out of it and letting Houdini take care of it himself (sometimes he'll snap at her) but unfortunately it makes her want to play more... LOL 9 times out of 10 though my kids will come to Houdini's rescue (when Cocoa is pulling on his ears and jumping on his head) because they can't stand to see him not fight back and just lay there and cower, so I'm curious if that is the right thing to do or if they should let it go until Houdini lets her know he's had enough????

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

I would let them work it out. Have you ever seen a video of a pack of wolves? And how they react to eachother's behavior? A few weeks ago, there was something about wolves on TV. A wolf pup was acting badly towards and adult wolf, and it's mother came over and place her mouth over his neck, closing it just enough to give him a little pinch. The puppy settled down.

 

[Renee750il]

There's one big problem with letting them sort it out . . . Andre is a Giant and they are Mighty Mites. I've got the situation in reverse: two Monster grrrrls and one Bimmer who weighs less than half of either of them. Bimmer is my right hand. He was the first dog and he's the responsible dog. I back him and depend on him and the grrrrls understand that that is the way it is . . . BUT everyone - and I do mean EVERYONE - understands that I am the Big Boss. There is no "pecking order" or pack order after me. And I demand that everyone get along. The only squabbling allowed is Bimmer scolding one of the grrrrls when I've told them something and they aren't minding well enough.

Andre's going to figure out the size differential one of these days, and if you haven't established that YOU are the straw boss and there is no other order, things could get a bit hairy when Andre sees the light.

 

[showpug]

Renee...you read my mind. That is why I was concerned in the first place. I want complete control over the household and I want them to respect my requests. Do you think I should back the pugs by telling the puppy "NO" when he pushes it, and remove him from them until he calms down? I feel like if I discipline the pugs for doing something that is clearly only happening because they are being annoyed would make them resent the puppy. I feel like because the pugs are alpha and head of the household that I should defend them and let the pup know early on that it is not ok to push it... more thoughts please. I may let this issue go a little more if there was not such a huge size discrepancy. I do plan on using the pup for competitve obedience and some other activities...I do have full intentions on this new pup understanding who rules the roost!!

 

[Renee750il]

My standard rule is everyone goes to their corners. Well, except Bimmer - poor little guy's never doing anything wrong - he's the good dog. In your situation, since the sizes and age is reversed, I'd send all three to their separate corners to teach them that you won't tolerate any snarky behaviour toward each other. Basically, if you don't play nice, you don't play at all. Doesn't usually take long for them to figure it out, and if you treat them all equally, you're putting them all on the same level, plus you don't have to worry about one little monster figuring out how to start trouble and hang it on another one. It's kind of like the standard rule of personal fouls on the football field: the second one to foul is the one who gets caught. This avoids that pitfall entirely, plus they begin to catch on to the idea of walking away if one tries to start something.

 

[Renee750il]

By the way - planning on using an Irish Wolfhound/Mastiff (is that Bull or English - can't remember) for competitive obedience? Aren't you the ambitious one!

 

[showpug]

Hey...I didn't say that I wanted to win I am basically using the competitive obedience as a foundation for my dream of using him for pet therapy. By the way, it's English Mastiff, but his mom was small...more like a Bullmastiff. Dad was the wolfhound. I met both parents and they had incredible temperaments. He really is a good tender hearted pup who thinks that all the attention should be on him when he wants to play

 

[Renee750il]

English will be easier to work with. I think the "Bull" really comes from bull-headed, lol! Although for sheer willfulness I doubt a Bully can hold a candle to a Fila. There's a breed that will NEVER win an obedience competition, lol!

I love the Wolfhound temperament. I always wanted to have a pair and name them after Finn MacCumhail's legendary pair, Bran and Sgeolan. I think they are beautiful - from the inside out.

 

[Doberluv]

I agree with Renee. YOU are the "mom." These are not wolves living in the wild and you are not a wolf, I assume. If I let my boy Chihuahua and my boy Doberman "work it out," my boy Chihuahua might have been an inbetween meal snack for my Doberman by now.

The Doberman, like your big puppy was a tremendous pest, aggrivating little Jose to no end...wanting to play, mouth, paw, play growl. He still does, but only up to a point. As long as Jose looks like he's joining in on the fun (which he does) that's fine, but when he looks uncomfortable and wants Lyric to quit, he isn't strong enough in his body or his voice to make Lyric quit. Lyric is persistant. Jose would, without my intervention, get defensive and TICKED big time! Eventually, if I would not step in, at some point when Lyric was older, and Jose developed into a very overly touchy, defensive guy, there's a good chance that he'd strike back when Jose gave him Hell. And it wouldn't be pretty. There's a huge size difference here, same as with your dogs. They need to know that you're in charge, you make the rules, not one of them.

 

[showpug]

I am glad to hear that you guys are pointing in the same direction. This is what I thought all along and I am happy to hear that you back it up. I don't want the big guy to grow up and realize that he can get the best of them. I want everyone to live in peace, and I want to be the boss...all of the time. I think when the pugs get very agitated I will step in and break up the tension and help the pup re-direct his playfullness. Do you think I should tell him "no," or just remove him to play quietly by himself...or both etc.? Should I tell my pugs no when they growl at him when they have had enough???

 

[Doberluv]

I usually use "leave it." (in a firm, stacatto voice) And redirect the attention onto something else. Whomever seems to be the instigator is the one I go for. LOL. But sometimes you don't see all. But I know that Jose is generally not interested in starting anything. It's almost always Lyric. The only time I tell Jose is sometimes he has a toy and Lyric is not doing anything, but walking near him and Jose gets all growly. I tell him, "enough Jose!" And just watch them. If there is too much trouble over toys, I remove the toys. I really don't have much trouble at all with them. It's just occasional. Mostly they seem to like eachother and mouth playfully and go everywhere together, like partners in crime. LOL.

 

[CreatureTeacher]

Well, by the time I got here everything I would've said had already been said!

Doberluv's right; sometimes you don't see it all. Just a look can be provocation that demands a response. I do the same thing as Renee. If I know for sure who was being the snot, then they can be by themselves for a few minutes. Play nice or don't play at all. But I don't discourage clear, fair communications. I want my dogs to be allowed to talk to each other without fearing retribution. I just about drop to my knees and thank the dog gods every time a dog growls at me, because this wonderful dog was good enough to give me a verbal warning before he pulled out his teeth. Responsive growling--as a reaction to a rude action from another dog--is completely allowed here. But growling as a resource guarding behavior gets you a time out; share or you don't get to play at all. Growling by a dog that's attempting to intimidate another dog is also not okay. But growling as a fair warning is encouraged. You are Mom the All Powerful. You get to decide what is done with nasty intent and what is done as a communication. But try to be fair.

 

[maui]

Exactly what Creature Teacher, Doberluv, & Renne said up there ^ is what we do in our dog park class.

"Talking" is fine when he's asking for what he wants... "Go away, I'm busy." Don't sniff back there, again" But if he continues to growl and go after the other dog "Hey, I said I'm busy $($*@!!" "Yes, You! Don't walk away from me jerk! I'll show you!" Then that's illegal. Because the sniffing dog walked away and my dog became a bully. When a dog is told to walk away with growl #1 and that dogs walks away, he should not get picked on for listening well. Am I making one ounce of sense here with my silly dog thoughts?

Let me know how it goes! We're thinking of getting another dog in a few months and I want to know how this works out for you.

 

[CreatureTeacher]

Well put, Maui!

 

[Renee750il]

You guys will love this.

Shiva the Diva has a little slick trick she tries to pull. If one of the others has something (like food - all food belongs to Shiva in DivaWorld ), she'll turn her head a bit sideways and drop it down, bringing her shoulder forward a bit between me and her head, then when she thinks I can't see her, she'll show her teeth to Bimmer or Kharma without making a sound. She's soooooo very sneaky, lol! Course that just gets her in trouble! "What have I told you about making ugly faces!" sends her slinking off to the sofa to sulk and squeeze out some crocodile tears until I tell her she can get down and call her over to me. She gets her lecture about not being a snarky bee-yatch, then goes over and apologizes to whoever she's offended by grooming them. I think they'd both rather have her snarl, lol!

 

[Doberluv]

LOL Renee. That's too funny.

Yes, I agree. The growl is a good warning and when Jose Chihuahua growls, Lyric should be grateful that he's getting a warning. After all, Jose wasn't as nice to the black bear that was on my property. He just ran him off, only warning him during the chase. Poor bear.

Lyric never growls in a "nasty" way to Jose. It's just Jose so worried about Lyric taking his toy. So, I let him growl at Lyric, but Lyric doesn't back off from pestering ususally. That's when I say, "Lyric, leave it." Or I have to take away the toy to interrupt this teasing. That's because I'm afraid that Jose may strike at Lyric and at that point, Lyric just might....one day, strike back and then we're in trouble.....95 LBS vs about 10.

Other times, Lyric isn't doing much but walking past and Jose flies off the handle, going after Lyric, growly, snappy.....almost like play, but not quite. But Lyric just takes it as play and bounces off, spinning around, snapping his jaws, smiling and wagging his tail. That's when I tell Jose, "leave it." But those snapping teeth kind of scare me. LOL. He can get carried away with play and it seems he forgets sometimes where the line is between make believe and the real thing that he may be practicing for.

 

[showpug]

Ok, so my pup never growls at my pugs, he just demands play whenever he feels like it and does not let up which obviously annoys them if they are not in the mood. I usually let them warn him and if he does not back off then I step in and guide him to a toy and or place to play by himself. If the pugs are guarding a toy and just growling because he came near them to lay on the bed with them then that is when they get in trouble...for being bossy over possesions. I think the pugs should be able to gently warn the pup and if he does not get the hint then I step in. Correct??