Training a longer hold?

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by DJEtzel, Feb 17, 2013.

  1. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    A coworker is using this currently to try and fix a chewy hold and she feels like they're making progress.
     
  2. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    I taught it a sloppy way to Bailey but I've refined my technique a little for Frodo. We'll see where it goes, but I like the theory of it a lot.
     
  3. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    like I said, teaching it to avoid something, like a leave it, I guess you could call it "reverse luring". I don't think it's anything more than a distraction for a hold.
     
  4. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    When I think of "leave it" I think of the way the puppy instructor at my clinic teaches it... and then I giggle. Maybe not everyone does it that way though?

    Put food on floor,
    tell puppy to leave it,
    puppy dives for food,
    put shoe on top of food,
    puppy chews on shoe,
    self rewarding behavior.

    Leave it means chew on shoe. :)

    Reverse luring is marking the dog for moving away from the lure. Simplistic.
     
  5. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    exactly, hold a piece of food in hand, when they avoid it, mark and reward, that's how everyone I know teaches it, though none of us have ever called it "reverse luring" :D

    explain to me the steps in using a "reverse lure" to get an active hold. That video is nothing more than clicker training
     
  6. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    I'm at school right now but I shall when I get home later!
     
  7. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    I do think of leave it as avoid/leave anything I say including environmental distractions. I don't use leave purely for object avoidance and that occasionally trips me up in my basic obed classes when people talk about it.

    I would love the difference explained as well. I may not be wrapping my head around it yet at this hour.
     
  8. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    End result: dog holds object in mouth continuously.
    Starting behavior: dog will pick up object (since everyone whose posted so far has a dog picking the object up, and I wouldn't use reverse luring to teach the pick up anyways)

    I would do a lot of pick ups with reinforcement to get the dog actively picking up the dumbell. When the dog has picked up the dumbell I would present a treat with an open hand. Close hand when dog goes for treat. Rinse and repeat. There's really not a lot of explaining to do? We're probably saying the same thing but it's really expedited some behaviors for me and allowed me to add precision to others I'd struggled with. I've also used it to teach position maintenance during heeling. The more I present to avoid, the harder the dog I'm working tries to maintain the behavior.

    It's explained very well by Fanny Gott, but not online. And I am really not good at writing things out...
     
  9. AdrianneIsabel

    AdrianneIsabel Glutton for Crazy

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    That makes sense to me, thanks. :)
     
  10. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    so it's just distraction training :) proofing. The behavior is already taught, now you're just making things more clear that hold is hold even under these circumstances. Just like heel is heel with a helper making noises and cracking a whip at your side, down is down with dogs playing around you, sit is sit with a ball rolling if front of you, etc.
     
  11. SpringerLover

    SpringerLover Active Member

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    If you call it systematic proofing, I'd agree with you that:

    systematic proofing=reverse luring
     
  12. Raegan

    Raegan Member

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    Reverse luring is the ****. Its a thing.

    Its very similar to Sue Ailsby's doggie zen.

    Also the logical extension of Susan Garret's its her choice.

    Scandinavian trainers use it much more extensively than any American trainer I've seen
     
  13. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    of course it's a thing, especially to those that want to make up new terms and act like they've invented something new :)

    People make up new terms all the time and sell an old idea, it's called marketing.
     
  14. Sekah

    Sekah The Monster.

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    I don't know if you can consider them the exact same thing. It IS distraction training. But also being able to see the food/reward is reinforcing for the dog (and removing it is punishing), so using it in this manner is providing another layer of feedback to the animal.
     
  15. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    ^Zactly. I don't think anyone has issue with the method itself. But I don't think I'm alone in finding the Give Everything A Name So It Looks Like I Invented Something craze both hilarious and exasperating.

    I mean I was doing this exact trick with Kim 5 years ago. I've seen many people use it, many of whom also started doing it on their own.

    It's like in agility when someone does a blind cross/front cross be
    blend over a jump wrap. That one move is called a ketscher, a reverse pole turn, a california twist, a blind backy-uppy, and many other names including ones after whoever happens to do it locally, all depending on your area of the country and who decided to cash in on it first. But people have been doing it for ages. Part of it is just trying to establish a common language to discuss these things, but a lot of it is someone trying to make money or reputation (or both) by claiming someone as their own, even when it's...not.
     
  16. Raegan

    Raegan Member

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    I don't think anyone is trying to claim they invented it. But its not just "distraction training." Distraction training is " ignore the thing and you will be rewarded." Reverse luring is "to get the thing you must give up the thing." At least for my dogs, that is an important distinction, because I have gotten different behavior between the two.
     
  17. Shai

    Shai & the Muttly Crew

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    Or put differently, you choose to give up the thing and do this desired thing instead.

    Ignoring something isn't enough for working through distraction. Choosing to do a desired behavior instead of whatever the dog would normally do/prefer to do is what I would consider successfully working through distraction, which as far as I can tell would also fulfill the criteria of reverse luring. Distraction training isn't just "leave it and go do what you want."
     
  18. Raegan

    Raegan Member

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    Well yes. The difference I was highlighting was the reward for meeting criteria. A key aspect of reverse luring/dog zen/its her choice is the distraction is the reward.

    Hold your sit stay while I move food behind your head and you will get the food in my hand <- reverse luring

    Hold your sit stay while other dogs are recalled past you and you will get food from my hand <- not reverse luring
     
  19. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    and like I said, it could be called that for training something like a "leave it". Avoid the food to get the food. I wouldn't, but maybe because i've been doing it that way forever and have never heard of "reverse luring" till yesterday and my old brain won't let me accept it has a new name :)

    when I think of luring, I think of pulling a dog's nose, head, then body to the ground by making it follow a "lure" of food to the ground. "reverse luring" to me should say you've taught the dog to avoid your hand with food, so you place the hand above the head, then use that to "push" the dog to the ground. I'm guessing that's not what you do. I'd be any amount of money the dog is trained the behavior by a lure or some other method, then the food is brought out and they're to do the exercise focused on your or wherever the focus should be, and when it is, it's marked and rewarded. Marker training 101.

    people have been using the reward as a distraction forever. it's one of the first things people do when the teach focused heeling, hold treat at the side of the head, get eye contact and reward with treat, been done forever, never heard it called "reverse luring" till yesterday.

    Is it the open hand closed hand that makes it special? cause those have terms already too a bridge and NRM.

    There's a reason there aren't "many youtube videos" on this and you don't find it in dog psych books.

    I've trained with Scandinavian trainers, funny story about some from Finland at the worlds a couple years ago. We were asking where everyone was from and I said , WI. just as my friends started giving me ****, meaning I just should have told them the united states because they wouldn't know where WI is, he starts in his best "That 70's Show" impersonations and yells "HELLO WISCONSIN" and then tells us all he knows about WI and the Packers and Kelso :) anyway, reverse luring never came up there either.

    This all came up in relation to teaching a hold. If it's all about "to get the thing, you must give up the thing" then how do you use that to teach a hold? I say the dog knows the behavior, all you're doing is teaching new situations in which the behavior must still be done and rewarding for proper behavior.

    anyway, I have to go work on a new formula. i've found a way to serve "liquid ice". I have to get this thing to market, it could literally be a life saver. In fact one could say it's necessary for one to survive. Watch for it, "liquid ice" will be coming to a store near you soon.
     
  20. release the hounds

    release the hounds Active Member

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    but if I say hold your sit stay while other dogs are recalled past you and you will get to chase and play with those dogs, does it now become "reverse luring"? :D
     

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