Thank you all so so much for taking the time to read and watch the videos. I am really open to any ideas and suggestions this point and this thread has given me a lot to think about.
Yes, very much. Usually he does get calm with time in new environments and it has worked for me in the past to let him get his frantic energy out, but not he's just getting higher the longer I let him explore.
Haha, yes, very much so.
I've been re-reading Suzanne Clothier's and she says something very similar about expecting the dog to remain connected to her, and relentlessly reminding them and demanding connection (though she does not use corrections). Corrections or not, I think this is the path I haven't really tried yet, mostly for not knowing how to carry it out, but I think more structure will help him. At home he doesn't get away with this kind of behavior to get what he wants, and he's a great dog at home, so I need to figure out how to apply that outside.
Interesting to hear you say this. Premack has been recommended to me so many times, because he is a very environmentally focused dog, but it seems to amp him up even more. He will stop and sit, knowing that I will let him go sniff, but it doesn't make him calmer or more responsive long term. It just amps him up as he expects to be rewarded by more exploring. And obviously if my goal is for him to connect to me, using a reward that allows him so much freedom to self-reward away from me might not be helping long term.
I actually bought that book recently. I see a lot of similarities to the Relaxation Protocol, which I know Leslie McDevitt is a big fan of. I have done mat work with him, but I'll freely admit that I haven't followed through with it to the point of taking it on the road other than a few training classes. I see the value in using the mat as a portable crate, and having it as a tool, and I've restarted the program, though I still don't really understand how it will totally benefit some of these situations. Still, the benefits at a training class or a dog show would make mat work worth it if I can get him to that level.
I've considered meds, though I would prefer something short acting that I can give before a training session or trip to an exciting place, because he doesn't seem to have generalized issues (he's very calm at home, even in the new apartment).
And yeah, the life situation sucks and I'm sure it's making things worse even if it's not the primary cause.
I've thought about this a lot, and I don't think he's stressy. I've seen the exact same body posture and behavior at home, when he has flushed a rabbit and is frantically trying to figure out where it went, and when he is frustrated that the leash won't allow him to follow it. I don't deny that he looks a bit stressy, and that it could be somehow related to anxiety, but I don't think that stress is the primary issue here specifically. I do think his adrenaline is spiking, and a lot of the physiological symptoms are similar to anxiety, but I don't think he's fearful. If anything, it's the stress that he feels about having to be on the look out for wildlife all the time.
Funny enough, he is much much calmer in crowded places. Wide open spaces or woods are where he gets worked up.
The prong is a relatively new development, because even on a front clip harness he was pulling until my shoulder was sore. I haven't used it to actually correct him, just for some basic control. It's on the dead ring and also attached to his collar, with the intention of limiting the effectiveness. I'm still not sure how I feel about using corrections for this behavior, or if I am skilled enough to make that work. I have also considered that the prong amps him up, though I've gone back and forth between prong and harness in situations that make him crazy, and situations where he's fine, and I haven't seen a correlation to the equipment. It's certainly not solving the problem though.
I agree that I don't think it's caused by anxiety or fear, though I do see how it looks that way and I think the physical symptoms are very similar.
I'm suspecting that your "calm down" period isn't really calming to him, rather he's just loading with anticipation even more.
He is a little amped up about something isn't he
I know you were video'ing to capture the behavior, but he's always getting to move forward to check things out even while checking out from you. Even though he seems a bit unresponsive overall, he's still paying a bit of attention to you. He sits when you tell him and he's not even looking your way it seems.
But like you said, it's barely, and part of that is because I think he's gotten away with that before. I think if you expected more, you'd get more. I know it sounds easier than it is.
No matter what you try, he does have to learn that sometimes, just a calm the heck down is needed. I suspect at some point, something not so nice will be applied.
But like you said, it's barely, and part of that is because I think he's gotten away with that before. I think if you expected more, you'd get more. I know it sounds easier than it is.
No matter what you try, he does have to learn that sometimes, just a calm the heck down is needed. I suspect at some point, something not so nice will be applied.
Everything needs to be about focus on you. I would not be rewarding, or letting him run off to sniff for rewards or any of that, because it has been too rewarding already. Later in the game maybe, but letting them go to the distractor as a reward doesn't always work as well as it sounds on paper. I don't care if it's food, balls, toys, sticks fetch, jumping on you, whatever, but the reward and interaction comes thru you, not the environment.
I've been thinking about this one today and am in a rush right now so haven't watched the videos but wanted to add, crate games is a great idea and much of them can also be transferred to a mat as well. A mat is far more transportable so once you have things going well you can potentially switch to a mat. There's probably some help in the Control Unleashed book about mat work. This also makes me think of the book Fired Up, Frantic, and Out of Control - they discuss mat work in there too. It's a pretty cheap book so wouldn't be terrible to pick up supplementary. Not sure there's a ton in it that will be helpful, I bought it for Payton and it's a good book for me to have as a teacher of training classes but not much to really help with P himself. I think Allie has bought it for Finn so maybe she can chime in.
I also was going to post this morning about behavioural meds but got distracted being at work. The idea in many cases is really is to just help take the edge off so the training can sink in. I know many people are really slow to try meds and I don't necessarily disagree with that, but I would put that idea in your back pocket to consider later if not now. I do think it seems to be exacerbated by all these changes in your life, which I realize you can't really do much about circumstances being what they are, so anxiety rather than pure over-stimulation is definitely a possibility here.
And yeah, the life situation sucks and I'm sure it's making things worse even if it's not the primary cause.
From the videos, the second one looks like he's actually pretty stressy - he's frenetic and his tail is way lower. It reminds me a LOT of when my Maggie was stressed by crowed places - super frenetic, could respond, but she couldn't sit still for long and went right back to being frenetic.
Funny enough, he is much much calmer in crowded places. Wide open spaces or woods are where he gets worked up.
I also noticed he's hitting the end of his lead a lot, so getting lots of naggy corrections, which could certainly be amping him up. Is the prong tied back to a collar? That will also limit the effectiveness of the corrections if that's the direction you've been going.
I don't think the stress is from anything other than conflict created by wanting to run off and explore and hitting the end of the leash. I think clarity would make it all go away.
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