Thoughts on teaching a correct down

[Rachael313]

Ok, I adopted a mix breed less then a week ago, so I'm aware that dogs need time to settle, and this issue might resolve on it's own with time, but wanted some thoughts on this.

We've been doing short, brief, fun training sessions every day for the past couple of days. Mostly loading our marker, and putting her sit on cue, rewarding her for a loose leash walk, and acclimating her to how yummy food can be as a reward.

I've always trained adown with a lure, from a stand. I've never had a problem with this. However, luring her into a down didn't work at all, she has the patience of a saint, and will literally stand and stare at the treat until she eventually loses interest (a long time!) and walks away.
I rewarded her following the lure in general, and rewarded and marked inclinations of her head towards the treat, until I shaped her reaching her head down for the treat, which she was started doing with considerable reliability.
Then finally, after several sessions, she sat down, then slowly crept into a down. Big party! Jackpot of treats, lots of praise and kisses (verbal praise is huge for her) etc., etc., so now she downs after a couple seconds of thought when I place the lure. But she continues to place herself in a sit first, then creep into a down each and every time.

How do I break this habit? I never placed her in a sit before asking her for a down, this is something she did on her own. And I didn't want to not reward the down since she is not a dog that lays down a lot, and I wasn't interested in missing my chance to reward it. Thoughts?

 

[Dekka]

If you are going to use a clicker (Perhaps... you said you were loading your marker.. on a side note I stopped loading the clicker as I found it did nothing)

I would go sit somewhere totally boring. (perhaps in the bathroom) and wait for her to lie down.. click/treat. Soon she will offer a down

 

[Rachael313]

I use a marker word ("yes"), as I didn't want to use a clicker for various reasons (mostly because I easily forget things and where I put them and need about 100 clickers over time).

The problem is she only ever lays down when chewing a tennis ball/destroying a toy, or when we put her in her crate. (I'm being quite literal; if I go sit in the bathroom, she will literally stand or sit for 20+ minutes just staring at me or around me. She never lays down. She does this when I'm showering, or changing, or typing on the computer, or making dinner etc etc!)). The c/t doesnt work when chewing a toy because she is very focused on her toy, she might eat the food offered, but would just as soon ignore it at this point, as the toy is the greater reward for her. Possibly if I marked the down, then threw a different ball that I might just happen to have near me, she might associate that as a reward. Not sure really.

Perhaps if I do enough repetition of rewarding her downs when I see them even if she doesn't appear to care, and continue to reward the downs she offers when I ask for them...and then up the criteria for the speed of her downs, as well as just let her settle in more, that might eventually get me there, lol. No rush really, just trying to get ideas!

 

[Dekka]

I would try something more novel than 'yes'. Though 'yes' can work if your dog isn't terribly 'operant' I would use a more novel marker. A ball point pen click can work as a clicker (I think I have bought a 100 clickers lol) or make a sound that you don't make in regular conversation for the marker.

Yes just mark and reward random downs. Though not likely with a ball through or you might get the sort of dog who downs and pops up quickly anticipating a ball throw. Though I would be concerned if she doens't down much on her own? I would wonder if she has pain somewhere.

IF she doesn't down much.. perhaps teach her other things (like sit, heel, shake a paw) and leave the behaviour that is 'tricky' for her for a more advanced move.

 

[lizzybeth727]

I agree with Dekka's advice.

if I go sit in the bathroom, she will literally stand or sit for 20+ minutes just staring at me or around me. She never lays down.

This is the way I teach downs to all the brand-new service dogs, and one time I had to wait 45 minutes for one down. I just brought a book, got comfortable, and waited.

Is there a reason why you don't want her to sit first when she does downs?