Thinking about Breeding.......
- Thread starter Ranchnhoney
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First of all, KUDOS to you for asking questions first and not just breeding without any concept of what you're doing. You are finding that you'll get very honest opinions on this forum - sometimes blunt, but the information you're receiving is going to really help you.
Unfortunately, just the fact that your girl is registered through ACA probably means that she is not really breeding potential if you're wanting to do things right. The reasons that "breeders" choose to use registries like ACA is that they either using stock that isn't registered through a more reputable registry, or that they're using stock that isn't registered at ALL and they may not even know the backgrounds. There are a few of these "fake" registries that allow pretty much anything - even to the point of just accepting a person's word that the pedigree they supply is valid. Breeders who use these registries can and sometimes do just make up a pedigree, so you have no true way of knowing if anything on your dog's pedigree is true.
One of the big things in breeding is health. ALL good breeders have a huge focus on trying to eradicate and/or avoid genetic health problems in their chosen breed. If you were going to breed JRT's or PRT's, you would want to x-ray hips and elbows (through an established organization like Orthopedic Foundation of Animals or OVC, PennHip, etc.). You'd also want patellas checked, as well as thryoid (hypothyroidism appears to be more of a problem in these dogs that I would have thought). And, of course, the BAER hearing test is vitally important.
And just as important is the health of the parents and grandparents of your breeding dog. This is one of the places where it's so important to know what the true pedigree is. YOUR dog may be apparently healthy but be carrying genes for various health problems that just happen to be skipping her generation. Because of this, knowing what kind of health background her relatives had is extremely important.
The same goes for the conformation and working ability. What kind of background does she have - pedigree-wise - in championships and working titles? With an ACA pedigree you just really can't know, because anything listed could be completely false.
I would highly recommend that you choose to make this girl your learning experience. Study up on showing, attend shows, see what it's all about and talk to people (not just JRT people, but other breed people too). Have her spayed, get your ILP (indefinite listing privilege) through AKC and then show her in obedience, rally, agility, tracking, earthdog, etc. EVERY show/trial will be a learning experience and you will gain a certain cameraderie with the other dog people. Tell them that you thought of breeding and then researched and realized that a dog with an ACA registry isn't really a good way to breed, and that instead you had her spayed and you're on a quest to learn all you can before you get your next JRT or PRT. This will impress people .. believe me, dog show people/breeders see all SORTS of people who make the wrong decision, and you will look OH so good when you show them that you made the right decision.
I started off, nearly two decades ago, with purebred but non-registered dogs. I didn't know jacksh*t at the time and might have bred one of mine if I hadn't started into shows and been "educated" by others. And now I've put titles on six dogs (more than 30 performance titles) and I finally have a bitch that is definitely quality. NOW I'm considering breeding but still have a lot to make sure of in my mind before I make that final decision. And it's not all about my dog - it's about how I would feel if anything happened to her (which is always a possibility when you breed), as well as the responsibility of finding long-term, safe and loving homes for the puppies.
There's a part of me that says "yes, yes, YES, I want puppies!!!" and then the other part of me that is logical and realizes that the first part is working completely off of an emotional level .. *L* IF/when I breed my girl, I want to be able to face the dog world KNOWING I did the right thing, instead of having people muttering behind my back about poor breeding techniques.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Unfortunately, just the fact that your girl is registered through ACA probably means that she is not really breeding potential if you're wanting to do things right. The reasons that "breeders" choose to use registries like ACA is that they either using stock that isn't registered through a more reputable registry, or that they're using stock that isn't registered at ALL and they may not even know the backgrounds. There are a few of these "fake" registries that allow pretty much anything - even to the point of just accepting a person's word that the pedigree they supply is valid. Breeders who use these registries can and sometimes do just make up a pedigree, so you have no true way of knowing if anything on your dog's pedigree is true.
One of the big things in breeding is health. ALL good breeders have a huge focus on trying to eradicate and/or avoid genetic health problems in their chosen breed. If you were going to breed JRT's or PRT's, you would want to x-ray hips and elbows (through an established organization like Orthopedic Foundation of Animals or OVC, PennHip, etc.). You'd also want patellas checked, as well as thryoid (hypothyroidism appears to be more of a problem in these dogs that I would have thought). And, of course, the BAER hearing test is vitally important.
And just as important is the health of the parents and grandparents of your breeding dog. This is one of the places where it's so important to know what the true pedigree is. YOUR dog may be apparently healthy but be carrying genes for various health problems that just happen to be skipping her generation. Because of this, knowing what kind of health background her relatives had is extremely important.
The same goes for the conformation and working ability. What kind of background does she have - pedigree-wise - in championships and working titles? With an ACA pedigree you just really can't know, because anything listed could be completely false.
I would highly recommend that you choose to make this girl your learning experience. Study up on showing, attend shows, see what it's all about and talk to people (not just JRT people, but other breed people too). Have her spayed, get your ILP (indefinite listing privilege) through AKC and then show her in obedience, rally, agility, tracking, earthdog, etc. EVERY show/trial will be a learning experience and you will gain a certain cameraderie with the other dog people. Tell them that you thought of breeding and then researched and realized that a dog with an ACA registry isn't really a good way to breed, and that instead you had her spayed and you're on a quest to learn all you can before you get your next JRT or PRT. This will impress people .. believe me, dog show people/breeders see all SORTS of people who make the wrong decision, and you will look OH so good when you show them that you made the right decision.
I started off, nearly two decades ago, with purebred but non-registered dogs. I didn't know jacksh*t at the time and might have bred one of mine if I hadn't started into shows and been "educated" by others. And now I've put titles on six dogs (more than 30 performance titles) and I finally have a bitch that is definitely quality. NOW I'm considering breeding but still have a lot to make sure of in my mind before I make that final decision. And it's not all about my dog - it's about how I would feel if anything happened to her (which is always a possibility when you breed), as well as the responsibility of finding long-term, safe and loving homes for the puppies.
There's a part of me that says "yes, yes, YES, I want puppies!!!" and then the other part of me that is logical and realizes that the first part is working completely off of an emotional level .. *L* IF/when I breed my girl, I want to be able to face the dog world KNOWING I did the right thing, instead of having people muttering behind my back about poor breeding techniques.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
Ok, well were to start......
Parsons................AKC registered JRT'S, came from the JRTCA registered dogs. The sepration in breed standard between the JRTCA dogs and AKC is getting huge..........in short the AKC dogs are becoming a joke.......large, large unspannable chest, poor coats and straight angulation in the front and over angulation in the hind (sound familiar?)
Russell Terriers are the shorties and are not the same as Jack Russell Terriers (btw our dogs used to be called Parsons.......but considering how the KC dogs are starting to look, glad we have a different name.)
As for breeding for working ability........that in the JRT world meanings EARTHWORK HUNTING. Not agility, not flyball, not jrt racing........that is performance.
From the photo of the pup, it appears to be a shorty, dew claws have not been removed and the tail is docked much too short among other things.
Jrts are have genetic issues just the same as other breeds the main ones are deafness (BAER testing) and eyes (CERF), for eyes cataracts, PRA and PLL are the big ones.
There are huge numbers of JRTS/PRTS and Shorties in rescue, because people have no clue that they are breeding or purchasing a dog that is a HUNTING dog.
I have never heard of ACA, I would expect that its just a paper registry.
As for JRT experience..........well lets see, I have been Working/Breeding/Showing JRTCA reg'd dogs for many many years now, including doing some Rescue. Along with being on Board for the National club a few years ago, before the JRTCC became the shambles that it is now and from the look of things continues to go down that same road.
If you are seriously looking to get involved and becoming a responsible breeder in the future (agree you shouldn't breed the one you have now, spay) then PM me and I can point you in the right direction of breeders/shows/trials or true working people.
Lynn
Parsons................AKC registered JRT'S, came from the JRTCA registered dogs. The sepration in breed standard between the JRTCA dogs and AKC is getting huge..........in short the AKC dogs are becoming a joke.......large, large unspannable chest, poor coats and straight angulation in the front and over angulation in the hind (sound familiar?)
Russell Terriers are the shorties and are not the same as Jack Russell Terriers (btw our dogs used to be called Parsons.......but considering how the KC dogs are starting to look, glad we have a different name.)
As for breeding for working ability........that in the JRT world meanings EARTHWORK HUNTING. Not agility, not flyball, not jrt racing........that is performance.
From the photo of the pup, it appears to be a shorty, dew claws have not been removed and the tail is docked much too short among other things.
Jrts are have genetic issues just the same as other breeds the main ones are deafness (BAER testing) and eyes (CERF), for eyes cataracts, PRA and PLL are the big ones.
There are huge numbers of JRTS/PRTS and Shorties in rescue, because people have no clue that they are breeding or purchasing a dog that is a HUNTING dog.
I have never heard of ACA, I would expect that its just a paper registry.
As for JRT experience..........well lets see, I have been Working/Breeding/Showing JRTCA reg'd dogs for many many years now, including doing some Rescue. Along with being on Board for the National club a few years ago, before the JRTCC became the shambles that it is now and from the look of things continues to go down that same road.
If you are seriously looking to get involved and becoming a responsible breeder in the future (agree you shouldn't breed the one you have now, spay) then PM me and I can point you in the right direction of breeders/shows/trials or true working people.
Lynn
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PRT and JRT = different breeds, same origin. PRT are leggy meant for the hunt by horse where the JRT goes to ground. It you are interested in a working sport, check out the terrierman. Great site!
http://www.terrierman.com/
http://www.terrierman.com/
So your point is?????????? what? that the *leggy* dogs don't go to ground?
That JRT's have short legs? If that is your point you are VERY misinformed.
The length of the leg has very little to do with correct conformantion, everything hinges on the type of quarry and the terrian. ALL earthworking terriers MUST have a small, flexiable, spannable chest regardless of whether the dog is 12 inches tall or 15".
Have you ever had a spade or locating box in your hands? Do you know how to use them? Have you ever Used them??
And please don't spout Form Follows Function unless you KNOW by personal experience from years in the working field, as to how Function relates to Form.
That JRT's have short legs? If that is your point you are VERY misinformed.
The length of the leg has very little to do with correct conformantion, everything hinges on the type of quarry and the terrian. ALL earthworking terriers MUST have a small, flexiable, spannable chest regardless of whether the dog is 12 inches tall or 15".
Have you ever had a spade or locating box in your hands? Do you know how to use them? Have you ever Used them??
And please don't spout Form Follows Function unless you KNOW by personal experience from years in the working field, as to how Function relates to Form.
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Geeze, don't put words into people's mouths. :lol-sign:
And no, I don't have to dig a hole to appreciate working terriers or the above mentioned website.
Why not just say...
"Hi, your opinion is wrong. This is the difference (if there is any, which there obviously must be to some extent) based on my experience." Inserting an educational tidbit would have been a nice touch as well.
Thanks for the nasty-gram though. :lol-sign:
BTW, not ALL tunneling terriers have small chests as you stated above. But I won't ride you for YOUR opinion.
Dekka had 2 pretty much pure white sisters. All white is fine, as long as there is no deafness. (not too common, but not unheard of)
I would spay her, see if she can be recorded with the JRTCA, and start going to terrier trials. Meet some JRT breeders, make some contacts, have a blast and learn lots.
I too have never heard of that registry.
I would spay her, see if she can be recorded with the JRTCA, and start going to terrier trials. Meet some JRT breeders, make some contacts, have a blast
and learn lots.I too have never heard of that registry.
Ah you are correct to some degree.........I should have stated it a bit better.
It is preferrable to have a small flexiable spannable chest, it is much easier for the dog to be successful. With a large chest, one often has to dig to help the dog more and of course one hopes that the quarry doesn't dig away by the time that large chested loaded dog manages to get to it. Or worse, that large chested dog gets stuck and the quarry ends up trashing that dog or killing it....................because the dog can't move correctly in the earth. Now a Terrier that is too small, can also be in trouble....they can enter and locate quickly, but they are often not large enough to hold the quarry there, or the quarry digs away or it gets trashed. If you open up an earth to smaller terriers, it is often best to have a larger dog there as a draw dog.
Again it comes down to the terrian, quarry and soil conditions.
It is preferrable to have a small flexiable spannable chest, it is much easier for the dog to be successful. With a large chest, one often has to dig to help the dog more and of course one hopes that the quarry doesn't dig away by the time that large chested loaded dog manages to get to it. Or worse, that large chested dog gets stuck and the quarry ends up trashing that dog or killing it....................because the dog can't move correctly in the earth. Now a Terrier that is too small, can also be in trouble....they can enter and locate quickly, but they are often not large enough to hold the quarry there, or the quarry digs away or it gets trashed. If you open up an earth to smaller terriers, it is often best to have a larger dog there as a draw dog.
Again it comes down to the terrian, quarry and soil conditions.
Geeze, don't put words into people's mouths. :lol-sign:
And no, I don't have to dig a hole to appreciate working terriers or the above mentioned website.
Why not just say...
"Hi, your opinion is wrong. This is the difference (if there is any, which there obviously must be to some extent) based on my experience." Inserting an educational tidbit would have been a nice touch as well.
Thanks for the nasty-gram though. :lol-sign:
BTW, not ALL tunneling terriers have small chests as you stated above. But I won't ride you for YOUR opinion.
And no, I don't have to dig a hole to appreciate working terriers or the above mentioned website.
Why not just say...
"Hi, your opinion is wrong. This is the difference (if there is any, which there obviously must be to some extent) based on my experience." Inserting an educational tidbit would have been a nice touch as well.
Thanks for the nasty-gram though. :lol-sign:
BTW, not ALL tunneling terriers have small chests as you stated above. But I won't ride you for YOUR opinion.
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So, does the Scottish Terrier fit into you plans as far as small chest?
"The ribs should be well sprung out from the spine, forming a broad, strong back, then curving down and inward to form a deep body that would be nearly heart-shaped if viewed in cross-section. The topline of the back should be firm and level. The chest should be broad, very deep and well let down between the forelegs. The forechest should extend well in front of the legs and drop well down into the brisket. The chest should not be flat or concave, and the brisket should nicely fill an average man's slightly-cupped hand."
http://www.akc.org/breeds/scottish_terrier/
This description doesn't automatically proclaim small chest, does it. Then again, they are shorter dogs.
"The ribs should be well sprung out from the spine, forming a broad, strong back, then curving down and inward to form a deep body that would be nearly heart-shaped if viewed in cross-section. The topline of the back should be firm and level. The chest should be broad, very deep and well let down between the forelegs. The forechest should extend well in front of the legs and drop well down into the brisket. The chest should not be flat or concave, and the brisket should nicely fill an average man's slightly-cupped hand."
http://www.akc.org/breeds/scottish_terrier/
This description doesn't automatically proclaim small chest, does it. Then again, they are shorter dogs.
Buffalo Soldier, most breeds now can no longer do what they are bred to do. A fox terrier could no longer get its chest, or shoulders down a fox hole if their life depended on it.
Is a scottish terrier supposed to go underground? If so to what quarry. The chest of the hunting dog can't be much bigger than the chest of the quarry. Dekka fits down holes after groundhogs. Snip's chest is bigger, and he has a hard time, has to dig to move himself along.
Is a scottish terrier supposed to go underground? If so to what quarry. The chest of the hunting dog can't be much bigger than the chest of the quarry. Dekka fits down holes after groundhogs. Snip's chest is bigger, and he has a hard time, has to dig to move himself along.
I was under the impression that a good many terrier were bred for ratting which does not so much involves holes in the ground out in nature, as scenting ability, tenacity, and agility and willingness to shake the life out of anything small and squeaky? Ratting was/is done with the human flushing the rats out into the room where the dog then kills them no?
In fact weren't some terriers used in those "sports" when a barrel of rats were poured out into a pen and the dog was graded on how many it could dispatch?
In fact weren't some terriers used in those "sports" when a barrel of rats were poured out into a pen and the dog was graded on how many it could dispatch?
That is correct, there were dogs used for ratting and yes they did test the dogs by over turning a barrel full of rats to see how fast and how many rats a dog could kill.
If I am not mistaken, Manchesters and Min Pins are a couple of the breeds/types that were bred/raised as topside vermin control specialists.
Many different types of Terriers had several jobs back in the 1700-1800's, they were used as pest control, both in the earth and within the Keeps/Castles, homes and barns.
Some dogs did it all, kept the rats and mice at bay, worked the riverbanks for Otter (which was considered to be vermin as well), fox and badger.
It completely depended on the terrian and quarry as to what type of terrier was used.
To my knowledge the Scottish Terrier was used to all of the above in the 1800's, photo's show a dog that was a bit leggy and a chest not as deep as seen today.
Artwork shows a dog that is similiar to todays dog, but there is no reference to them being a working dog for about a 100 years. Also the standard was changed once they came to N.A and I believe that standard was modified in the 20's or 30's.
Recently I was reading about which breeds were used and developed for ratting, along with the tests (sport lol). I saw the records etc. I'll see if I can find it again and post the link, it was interesting.
Lynn
If I am not mistaken, Manchesters and Min Pins are a couple of the breeds/types that were bred/raised as topside vermin control specialists.
Many different types of Terriers had several jobs back in the 1700-1800's, they were used as pest control, both in the earth and within the Keeps/Castles, homes and barns.
Some dogs did it all, kept the rats and mice at bay, worked the riverbanks for Otter (which was considered to be vermin as well), fox and badger.
It completely depended on the terrian and quarry as to what type of terrier was used.
To my knowledge the Scottish Terrier was used to all of the above in the 1800's, photo's show a dog that was a bit leggy and a chest not as deep as seen today.
Artwork shows a dog that is similiar to todays dog, but there is no reference to them being a working dog for about a 100 years. Also the standard was changed once they came to N.A and I believe that standard was modified in the 20's or 30's.
Recently I was reading about which breeds were used and developed for ratting, along with the tests (sport lol). I saw the records etc. I'll see if I can find it again and post the link, it was interesting.
Lynn
Here is a quote from the Manchester website concerning ratting.
'Originally bred as a "ratting machine" Manchester's made frequent and highly acclaimed appearances in the rat pits. One Manchester named Billy is still lauded for his accomplishments, having in 1827 killed 100 rats in only 12 minutes! It was during the mid-1900s that smaller versions of the Black and Tan began to appear due to a trend toward miniaturization. Not to be outdone at least one of these smaller versions, a five pounder appropriately named "Tiny," is known to have killed 100 rats in the astonishing time of 5 1/2 minutes!'
'Originally bred as a "ratting machine" Manchester's made frequent and highly acclaimed appearances in the rat pits. One Manchester named Billy is still lauded for his accomplishments, having in 1827 killed 100 rats in only 12 minutes! It was during the mid-1900s that smaller versions of the Black and Tan began to appear due to a trend toward miniaturization. Not to be outdone at least one of these smaller versions, a five pounder appropriately named "Tiny," is known to have killed 100 rats in the astonishing time of 5 1/2 minutes!'