The war

[Puckstop31]

Ok, so we agree education is the way forward (I think!).

Not THE way, but A way. Yes, education would certainly be a very good start.

All we are doing at the moment is educating the younger generation in these countries that WE are the evil ones who killed their brother/mother/insert close relative/pet/belonging here. They have no concept of why you feel you need to do it, all they are seeing is the destruction. They will grow up to HATE us, as the adults quite often already do! And so the cycle continues!

WE do not educate then that we are the evil ones. Their parents teach them that. The parents and the "Mullahs".

Violence is NOT the answer (i will say it 100 times if I have to!)

Just as I will say 1000 times if I have to, that SOMETIMES it is. It is not pretty, it is not right but it is REALITY.

I think my parable about the "punk" in highschool fits. After I socked him good in the nose once, he left me alone. I did not like it, I was scared, and I hurt my hand, but he left me alone.

 

[Dizzy]

Not THE way, but A way. Yes, education would certainly be a very good start.



WE do not educate then that we are the evil ones. Their parents teach them that. The parents and the "Mullahs".

TOTALLY disagree. A child can see with their own eyes what is going on in the world around them. And their world is usually their own small circle. I think having your father blasted into 1000 pieces is more of a lesson that what your parents tell you. If nothing else it REINFORCES what they say!

I think my parable about the "punk" in highschool fits. After I socked him good in the nose once, he left me alone. I did not like it, I was scared, and I hurt my hand, but he left me alone.

NO, Fear incites HATE which will lead to violence! You see, now the punk is scared! Next time he comes for you, he will bring a knife to be sure he gets you good and proper!

 

[Puckstop31]

TOTALLY disagree. A child can see with their own eyes what is going on in the world around them. And their world is usually their own small circle. I think having your father blasted into 1000 pieces is more of a lesson that what your parents tell you. If nothing else it REINFORCES what they say!

Indeed... This is a good point. Yet, I wonder if anybody would be willing to tell the child what Daddy did to get blown up?

I watched a excellent documentary on Discovery once about a child living in the West Bank. I heard 6 YEAR OLDS talk about how they dreamed of being a Martyr. Tell, me, what 6 year old gets thoughts like that in their head from simply seeing something happen? When that child asks why, what do they tell him?

NO, Fear incites HATE which will lead to violence! You see, now the punk is scared! Next time he comes for you, he will bring a knife to be sure he gets you good and proper!

Perhaps, and well he should be. Because he might bring a knife, but I am packing my Sig. Peace through superior firepower. I know, I know that is not what you want, but it just keeps working. The Cold War is a prime example of this. The West won because we had better technology, weapons, tactics and free economies. The Soviets and their satelites went bankrupt trying to keep up.

Eternal Vigilance is the cost of Freedom. I would rather be free than at "peace". Because if I have to give up my freedom to have peace, I will choose freedom.

It sucks that in this world, we need guns and knives and bombs. But we DO. Human nature demands it. There is only one thing that will ever stop it, and it ain't education.

Human Beings will NEVER be at peace with ourselves. We never have been, so what makes you think we can be?

 

[Zoom]

Evolution is taught in ALL public schools. A private school can choose not to teach it, IIRC. I do not know where you got this information, but me thinks you should listen to your own 2nd sentence.

Puck, have you heard of Kansas? Lately, kids in science class are lucky if they get more than a five minute description of Darwin and his theory, and depending on the teacher you get, that lecture is geared more towards "This is so very wrong." Yeah, there's a huge legal thing going on with the ID crowd right now, because the colleges are throwing a fit over having to accept students who haven't learned one of the most basic tenets of scientific theory and so legistlators are making up ID as a compromise, but this is by far and away not the first time Kansas has tried to "de-evolve."

I will give you that. The Crusades were indeed a black mark in the eye of Christianity. I will submit 2 points on that. (But will go WAY deeper if you like, the Crusades was one of my favorite topics in college.)

1.) The "Christians" who started the Crusades did not know Christ like I know him. They were Christians in name only.

They were Christians in the exact same way you are a Christian, that they believed and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ and believed everything their Church leaders told them. The leaders of the Church back then incited the Crusades because those "evil heathens, those filthy Muslims" had control of the Holy City of Jerusalem and everyone "knew" back then (and some still believe today) that the 2nd Coming of the Lord can't or won't happen until the True Believers have control of Jerusalem again. The Crusades were an exercise in religious propoganda and what happens when faith is used a launching point for racial violence. When the Crusaders entered a target city, they began to slaughter indiscriminately, usually based on the appearance of their victims. Countless numbers of fellow Christans were murdered where they stood, poised to welcome in their brethren, because they had adopted the local dress of the region. They either never stopped to ask "Hey, how do you feel about JC?" or they felt that the time spent in that region had corrupted them and they were no longer pure believers of the One True Faith.

There's a huge special about it on the History Channel this week.

Any opinions on my last post?

 

[Dizzy]

Indeed... This is a good point. Yet, I wonder if anybody would be willing to tell the child what Daddy did to get blown up?

Probably the same you would tell your kids in the situation. He was fighting for his beliefs. The hatred has been brewing for many many years. The father was probably a child in the last war and saw his family die (back to my continuing circle again).

Perhaps, and well he should be. Because he might bring a knife, but I am packing my Sig. Peace through superior firepower. I know, I know that is not what you want, but it just keeps working.

So next time he brings his mates and their guns. Your violence just increases their hate and they will return bigger and harder. (circle again!)

Eternal Vigilance is the cost of Freedom. I would rather be free than at "peace". Because if I have to give up my freedom to have peace, I will choose freedom.

Why will you have to give up your freedom??????

 

[Dizzy]

Clarify your last post please.. Eternal vigilance is the cost of freedom... You feel vigilance is too much effort? You would rather have war?

 

[Puckstop31]

Puck, have you heard of Kansas? Lately, kids in science class are lucky if they get more than a five minute description of Darwin and his theory, and depending on the teacher you get, that lecture is geared more towards "This is so very wrong." Yeah, there's a huge legal thing going on with the ID crowd right now, because the colleges are throwing a fit over having to accept students who haven't learned one of the most basic tenets of scientific theory and so legistlators are making up ID as a compromise, but this is by far and away not the first time Kansas has tried to "de-evolve."

This is delving off topic... But...

If we want to start another thread about it, we can argue evolution vs. ID. I have (well, pulled from people MUCH smarter than I) I think what is a fair arguement against evolution. Shoot, I can even go as far to argue that "Science" is as much of a religion as Christianity.

They were Christians in the exact same way you are a Christian, that they believed and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ and believed everything their Church leaders told them.

NO. The Crusaders were predominantly Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church is VERY far away from what Christ teaches. Catholic teachings are often not what Jesus taught. Also, I do not simply belive "everything my church leaders tell me." That statement says a lot about what you think of people of faith. I READ the Bible and follow its teachings because I have seen them work in my life.

The leaders of the Church back then incited the Crusades because those "evil heathens, those filthy Muslims" had control of the Holy City of Jerusalem and everyone "knew" back then (and some still believe today) that the 2nd Coming of the Lord can't or won't happen until the True Believers have control of Jerusalem again.

Partially true... There WILL be a new temple built on the temple mount. I guess the Crusaders thought that they could hasten the 2nd coming by capturing Jerulsalem.

I never said I agreed with the motives of the Crusaders.

The Crusades were an exercise in religious propoganda and what happens when faith is used a launching point for racial violence.

I agree.

When the Crusaders entered a target city, they began to slaughter indiscriminately, usually based on the appearance of their victims. Countless numbers of fellow Christans were murdered where they stood, poised to welcome in their brethren, because they had adopted the local dress of the region. They either never stopped to ask "Hey, how do you feel about JC?" or they felt that the time spent in that region had corrupted them and they were no longer pure believers of the One True Faith.

Again, I agree and this is accurate stuff. Also, this helps prove that the Crusaders were NOT true Christians.

Any opinions on my last post?

Of course, did I cover them yet or not? Sorry, I have a lot going on (stupid job) and this thread is moving fast. I am trying to keep up but I am the only one on my side of the discussion right now. LOL

EDIT ****

Are you talking about a post today or yesterday? I am talking about when you say "last post".

 

[Puckstop31]

Dizzy, I think we have to just agree to disagree on the circle thing. Our discussion being a prime example of said circle.

Why will you have to give up your freedom??????

Watch and see what the world comes up with as a "solution" to these issues. World Government, no borders.... No private property ownership....

Just wait and watch....

 

[Puckstop31]

Clarify your last post please.. Eternal vigilance is the cost of freedom... You feel vigilance is too much effort? You would rather have war?

By vigilance I mean "strong defence". You cannot really be "on guard" with out a weapon to use if you need it, right?

I cannot stress enough, I HATE war. War is the most disgusting thing humanity does to itself. BUT, because of HUMAN NATURE (see how that keeps coming up?) we MUST be vigiliant. We must stand on that wall and be ready to use our weapons if necessary. If not, we would all be slaves.

 

[Dizzy]

Human nature... Circles... They are both true and correct (and it's getting late in the day and I want to go home, hence my typing and thought processes are getting lazy!)...

Use HUMAN NATURE and help put a stop to the everlasting war circle! All it needs is for someone to break the cycle. There are (believe it or not) good aspects to human nature also. We are (believe it or not) loving and compassionate and have empathy and can LEARN (that's why we are where we are today).

If all the people thinking about how to go to war thought about how to make peace... Wow! And I mean, actually spent as much time/money/effort on realising a REALISTIC solution. It CAN be done! It SHOULD be done anyway. There is not just ONE solution. THAT is unrealistic and does NOT account for the VARIETY in human nature.

 

[Puckstop31]

Human nature... Circles... They are both true and correct (and it's getting late in the day and I want to go home, hence my typing and thought processes are getting lazy!)...

Be sure to stop by a pub for a pint, might make things a little easier.

Use HUMAN NATURE and help put a stop to the everlasting war circle!

God idea, but....

All it needs is for someone to break the cycle.

Really? So basically, somebody has to stop fighting back and just take it? For how long? I am not sure that idea is realistic. A wonderful idea mind you, but not realistic. But, I will submit that that kind of thought is way out of my leauge. I am a rather "tactical" thinker. I need to deal in real things. DEEP stuff like this are for the Philosophers...

There are (believe it or not) good aspects to human nature also. We are (believe it or not) loving and compassionate and have empathy and can LEARN (that's why we are where we are today).

I FULLY agree. Again, some of my experiences in combat zones proves it. In even in some of the worst conditions, I have seen acts of humanity and courage that would make you weep.

If all the people thinking about how to go to war thought about how to make peace... Wow! And I mean, actually spent as much time/money/effort on realising a REALISTIC solution. It CAN be done! It SHOULD be done anyway. There is not just ONE solution. THAT is unrealistic and does NOT account for the VARIETY in human nature.

That would indeed be nice. Who goes first? I don't trust them... They don't trust us. Pickle indeed....

 

[Dizzy]

I could ask why this is not done already..... And the answer:

Peace is not PROFITABLE.

Saddens me...

 

[Dizzy]

Be sure to stop by a pub for a pint, might make things a little easier.

I would go for a pint, but unfortunatley I am skint as all my wages go to taxes to pay for war

 

[Puckstop31]

LMFAO would you all get off the oil kick. HOW CAN IT BE ABOUT OIL? They get NO oil from Iraq and less than 4% of the nations oil supply from the middle east as a whole.

Yuck... How about THIS? Made up fact?

 

[Dizzy]

Yuck... How about THIS? Made up fact?

We ALL know oil will run ou sooner than you think. Just think how much it will be worth in X years time. Whoever has the biggest slice of that pie will be laughing all the way to the bank!

So maybe we don't get much oil NOW... But in the future...?

 

[Puckstop31]

I would go for a pint, but unfortunatley I am skint as all my wages go to taxes to pay for war

Well, you could move to Canada. Then all those extravagant taxes can pay for.... Well, something I hope. LOL

(Scratches head, just WHAT do all those taxes pay for anyway? Income tax AND a federal sales tax???)

 

[Puckstop31]

We ALL know oil will run ou sooner than you think. Just think how much it will be worth in X years time. Whoever has the biggest slice of that pie will be laughing all the way to the bank!

So maybe we don't get much oil NOW... But in the future...?

I believe there is PLENTY of oil. Why? Because I think this planet used to...

A.) Have a much larger land mass than it currently does.
B.) Much of the land mass was covered by jungle.
C.) SOMETHING happened to radically change this is a very short time. (Geologic data supports this, such as Antarctic ice core samples and VERY old tree core samples.)

What could that something have been? Meteor? Flood???

Anyway, because of this MASSIVE amount of life that was buried in substrata and all the other scientific words, I think we have PLENTY of oil to get at. The problem is finding it (or in some cases, being ALLOWED to find it) and extracting it.

 

[Dizzy]

Ok, another spanner in the works (and totally off topic really). My personal opinion is that we shouldn't be after it anyway - we need to be finding renewable resources that don't pollute.

But you knew I was going to say that anyway

Back to the oil. What there is and what we don't know of is irrelevant. What we DO know about is currently where the money is!

 

[andy.]

LMFAO would you all get off the oil kick. HOW CAN IT BE ABOUT OIL? They get NO oil from Iraq and less than 4% of the nations oil supply from the middle east as a whole.

Yuck... How about THIS? Made up fact?

Nobody said it was made up, but 4% of a HUGE amount of oil, is still a lot of oil

 

[MyDogsLoveMe]

Anyway, because of this MASSIVE amount of life that was buried in substrata and all the other scientific words, I think we have PLENTY of oil to get at. The problem is finding it (or in some cases, being ALLOWED to find it) and extracting it.

Puck you are right there, but I do think it is being allowed to find and extracting it. I think if you turn over enough rocks you are bound to find that gyser of oil. Me and hubby have this chat way to much (we are in the trucking business and well when we spend $3500 a week in fuel) well you can see why we have this chat, and it is a topic that always gets my goat, so at times he likes to bring it up for a chuckle or two.

Yes granted 4% is alot when considering how much oil there is. Hey I have an idea, lets all send letters to the CEO's of the oil industry who just posted what like BILLIONS of dollars in profit during the 3rd qtr this yr while we the consumer were trying to figure out what was more valuable food or gas (prices at $3 + a gallon) *sighs* I am in the long line of work