The Monks of New Skete

dogsarebetter

EVIL SHELTIES!!!!
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#1
i met a lady at the dog park with 5 really well behaved mixed dogs. She said they all came from shelters, and 3 of them had lots of issues when she first got them. I asked how she got them so well behaved.
And she told me that she followed The Monks of New Skete like its the dog bible. I actually own that book but some things in it bugged me.

Who here has read it, and what do you think?
 

Dekka

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#2
Not a fan. But its like anything, innate talent in a trainer can make a big difference. I know some very well behaved dogs who were e collar trained. Doesn't mean those dogs wouldn't be more happy and better adjusted (well behaved does not equal happy.. often shut down dogs are seen as very well behaved) if they hadn't been trained with all p+
 

dogsarebetter

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#3
the punishment chapter in the book got me.

and they dont even let dogs sleep in the bed! WTH does that have to do with having a well behaved dog?
 

PoodleMommy

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#4
and they dont even let dogs sleep in the bed! WTH does that have to do with having a well behaved dog?
that is actually a really common theme with dog trainers... it doesnt make any sense... unless there is an actual issue while in the bed, I dont see how the two things are related.
 

BostonBanker

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#5
nd they dont even let dogs sleep in the bed! WTH does that have to do with having a well behaved dog?
I know a lot of people, including some positive trainers, who would swear that for a lot of dogs (obviously not all care about it), letting dogs sleep in the bed can cause leadership issues, and not allowing them on the bed is a non-physical, non-confrontational way to exert leadership. Take from it what you will.

I read the original Monks book while house-sitting one time, and was reasonably distressed. The quote that still blows my mind said something along the lines of "if you correct your dog with your hand and they don't yelp, you didn't hit hard enough".

I will say, I have re-skimmed the newest edition, and it is fairly different. There is one part where they say that they regret ever suggesting alpha-rolls in the first book and regret any harm it has caused. I doubt they are doing any training to this day that particularly appeals to me, but it sounds like they have at least realized that there are some training techniques that are not suitable for the average readers of their books.
 

bubbatd

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#6
Being a part time breeder I read all books , and theirs didn't impress me much .
 

BostonBanker

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#7
that is actually a really common theme with dog trainers... it doesnt make any sense... unless there is an actual issue while in the bed, I dont see how the two things are related.
__________________
Basic leadership exercises. The leader/alpha/whatever controls the food, sleeping spots, access to toys, etc. Sort of a variation on NILIF. There were 10 leadership exercises that we suggested owners try for at least a period of 6 weeks when I taught beginner obedience classes. I can't say I think they mattered to most dogs, but I do believe they help with some dogs. Whether for the reasons given or not.
 

lizzybeth727

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#8
I know a lot of people, including some positive trainers, who would swear that for a lot of dogs (obviously not all care about it), letting dogs sleep in the bed can cause leadership issues, and not allowing them on the bed is a non-physical, non-confrontational way to exert leadership. Take from it what you will.
*raises hand* IMO, possessing a good sleeping spot is one part of NILIF training. My dog is not allowed to jump on the bed, but she can come up when I invite her. Sometimes I don't want her in my bed, and I don't want there to be any kind of argument over it. I used to do the same thing with the couch and any other furnature, but I've let the couch thing slide recently; though it is helpful that I've done the training, so when we go to other people's houses who don't like her on the furnature, she will accept it with very little reminding.

I still suggest to anyone who wants their dog to sleep with them to not let the dog up unless you invite him, and to make sure they have a cue to get off the bed... and make sure the dog follows the cue. I've heard too many stories of dogs resource guarding beds to not think it's important.


Back to the topic, though, I've only flipped through the Monks at the bookstore, and that punishment chapter really bothered me. I also remember the quote about the dog not yelping, I think that's the part where I put the book back on the shelf.
 

adojrts

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#10
I too know countless people especially in agility that never allow their dogs to sleep on/in their bed, for the reasons BB stated. I was also told for me to have total control over Petie (we were having issues at the time for agility), that I would have to do this and I wouldn't be able to obtain what I wanted unless I did.
I made a choice, he was and is my dog, my companion and my buddy first and foremost. He had always slept beside me under the covers and he contines to do so to this day.
I have never taught my dogs that they needed an invite to get up on the sofa/bed, but they do move or get down when asked. I also don't have issues with RG, however that being said, it is a good method and I highly recommend it to others lol.

As for the Monks, I followed their methods many many years ago, alpha rolls etc and it caused more problems than it solved..........lesson learned.
 

Doberluv

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#11
I read it a long time ago...probably the first version. I thought the punishment stuff was ridiculous and unnecessarily harsh. And at that time, I was training more compulsively too. LOL. Someone bought me that book and I never picked it up again.

I think placement cues are a good thing to teach a dog, if for nothing else, for convenience when you want them to move. I don't think vague terms like leadership are very useful. I have never insisted on a dog waiting to be invited onto a piece of furniture and have never had any issues with resource guarding. But I have taught them to get off when asked or to "scoot over." LOL.

Toker is so cute. I think way back when she first came to live with me, I asked her a couple of times to wait until I got into bed just so she wouldn't go on my half. I'd get situated, then tell her to come on up. I wasn't too consistent or too particular and couldn't have done that more than 2 - 3 times. To this day, while I'm still brushing my teeth before bed, she will sit on the floor by the foot of the bed and wait for me. It's almost like she taught herself. But, after the morning potty break, she sometimes wants to go back to bed and she just goes in there by herself and gets on the bed. I couldn't care less.

I think other things that you do...other training makes a difference in things like resource guarding furniture. If you teach a dog basic obedience, have them sit and wait politely for dinner or to go out the door etc, etc....that transfers to other behaviors. (I think they get better and better at generalizing, the more they're trained) So, IMO, picking one single thing like not letting a dog on a bed uninvited isn't going to make or break anything. IF, however, someone has issues with their dog regarding getting off furniture, then that does need to be worked on specifically by teaching placement cues. That is something that should be taught in the first place....just part of good manners.
 

bradny78

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#12
its funny cause the only update from the one they made in the 70's to the one now is that the took out the alpha roll-over. Unfortunatley there are other mediums now that have made this practice popular once again. as long as there are dogs and there are trainers there will always be people using P+ training methods. the good thing is that now a days pos reinforcement is the more widely used among people looking to train there pet

- Welcome to Good Dog, BRAD Dog!
 

TheCorinthian

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#13
I agree. I've read both the Skete books and it was OK (not even that great) for the time it came out but now it is simply outdated. There are far better books that you can get that will not only paint an accurate picture of dogs but give you a better perspective on how to raise then and train them. .
 

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