The Illusion collar

[Adrienne]

Disclaimer I do not wish to start a debate on Cesar this is only a thread about his collar, I also do not wish to start a debate on whether or not this type of collar should have a place in dog training. This is purely for information on the collar and it's benefits/drawbacks. Thank you!

So just for curiosity purposes has anyone tried the Illusion collar? Do you think it is safer than a prong or check chain collar? I would think the correction would be less adverse than either the prong or check chain. I am thinking of checking one out for Katya and seeing how it works. It is such a pain in the neck (pun intended) to constantly be readjusting the collar when out walking.

If you are unfamiliar with the collar here is a link to the FAQ section...http://cesarmillaninc.com/products/faq.php

 

[RD]

I have this, a friend got it for their puppy and sent it my way when she outgrew it.

It does what it says it will do - keeps the collar up high on the neck. You definitely issue a lighter correction with the collar at the top of the neck, which would definitely be easier on the dog. If you're going to use aversives, this certainly has its merits.

 

[milos_mommy]

i wouldn't use it, but i don't think i'd criticize anyone using it correctly...

 

[tessa_s212]

I think if you are going to use aversives, it would help to train more properly using corrections.

But I do have to object. In the little video that is explaining the collar and advertising it linked from the site you linked to, it says the walk will be more enjoyable for you and the dog. I have to disagree The dog's walk becomes less enjoyable because its getting yanked on and corrected and no longer gets to pull mom all along and smell and do whatever it'd like.

 

[Gempress]

As soon as I saw "trains the dog with a slip collar correction", it turned me off. It's a slip collar that stays in the proper place, that's it.

I don't agree with this at all. Slip collars should only be used by people who understand them well. That's because there is a good chance that you can injure your dog's throat if you don't use it properly. And also, you have to know exactly how to give a proper correction, and the right time to do it. They take skill and practice to use properly. Making a slip collar that is supossed to be easy enough for anyone to use.....I think it opens up a whole can of worms, since I'm sure there are plenty of people who will buy it without a clue.

If you're going to use a training collar, I'd suggest a prong. Despite it's semi-barbaric appearance, it is actually much, much safer to use than a slip collar. You still have to practice to use it properly, but you don't have the potential for injury.

Even though they both have good leash manners, I use prong collars on Zeus and Voodoo as a safety precaution whenever I walk them together by myself. If they ever decide to go chasing after something one day, there's no way I'd be strong enough to control them both without that aid.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

The concept of the collar at the top of the neck, directly under the jaw, is because that's where it's going to hurt the most. This is why some trainers use collars there - they can create more pain and choking pressure with less motion and therefore appear to be more effective.

The illusion collar has no illusions to me - I see it as it is, a device that creates pain/fear in order to force the dog to submit. The prong collar is less invasive and there's less potential of actual injury, so if you feel a great need to use a compulsive-style collar on your dog I would definitely say forget the illusion collar and use a prong instead.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Angel Chicken]

The concept of the collar at the top of the neck, directly under the jaw, is because that's where it's going to hurt the most.
The illusion collar has no illusions to me - I see it as it is, a device that creates pain/fear in order to force the dog to submit.

I have to object on this. The leash is designed for correction, not pain. By putting it that high up on the neck, not only is it fitted correctly but it is where you will catch the dog's attention the most.

For instance, if you scruff a dog, where do you scruff him? His neck. This is the place that catches the dog's attention the most.

 

[taratippy]

I have to object on this. The leash is designed for correction, not pain. By putting it that high up on the neck, not only is it fitted correctly but it is where you will catch the dog's attention the most.

For instance, if you scruff a dog, where do you scruff him? His neck. This is the place that catches the dog's attention the most.

Why would you scruff a dog?

Totally agree with IQ (apart from the prong bit)

 

[Angel Chicken]

Why would I scruff a dog?

Scruffing is very much like pack behavior. When you scruff a dog and even growl (or just raise your voice a tiny bit), you are saying to the dog "Look here, I'm the boss, not you!". Dogs understand that.

In a pack, the alpha will make a unruly dog behave doing this same thing, grabbing his/her scruff and growling. Then they make the dog submit to them, by displaying their belly to them.

If your dog were to bite you, you wouldn't just sit there would you?

Of course not. I have not done scruffing in a long time (as Kona is a small dog, don't wanna chance hurting her), but I would scruff a dog if it were displaying behaviors that I didn't approve of, such as getting into the trash or biting.

However, that is not the point of this thread. The point is to discuss the collar/lead, not the way I train my dogs.

Looking back, I noticed that the collar can only be used on the left side. Can someone explain to me why use the left side than the right (other than the fact that the collar/lead will not work properly)? Is left like the universal side for walking dogs?

LOL, I know... I'm silly, but really, I am wondering!

 

[taratippy]

Why would I scruff a dog?

Scruffing is very much like pack behavior. When you scruff a dog and even growl (or just raise your voice a tiny bit), you are saying to the dog "Look here, I'm the boss, not you!". Dogs understand that.

In a pack, the alpha will make a unruly dog behave doing this same thing, grabbing his/her scruff and growling. Then they make the dog submit to them, by displaying their belly to them.

If your dog were to bite you, you wouldn't just sit there would you?

Of course not. I have not done scruffing in a long time (as Kona is a small dog, don't wanna chance hurting her), but I would scruff a dog if it were displaying behaviors that I didn't approve of, such as getting into the trash or biting.

Sorry but is this for real? Dogs do not scruff each other, can I ask what studies you've done, the dogs display their belly when submissive yes but not because they have some dog scruffing on them they do it because they are submissive. Im sorry but I really thought most people had moved away from these ideas a long time ago, maybe becuase Im in the UK.

Why would my dog decide to bite me? Not one of my six has tried to yet. Would I scruff a dog for getting into the trash! Well no I might scruff whoever left it out, do you use scruffing for all the things you want to train a dog not to do or have you every tried positive methods?

 

[Angel Chicken]

Tara, as I said, this thread is not about how I train, it is about the discussion of the collar/lead.

If you want to discuss the way I train, please PM me and do not do so in this thread.

Thanks!

 

[taratippy]

Tara, as I said, this thread is not about how I train, it is about the discussion of the collar/lead.

If you want to discuss the way I train, please PM me and do not do so in this thread.

Thanks!

Sorry for going off topic and thanks for the offer but I dont think so.

 

[Herschel]

Off topic:

Why would I scruff a dog?

Scruffing is very much like pack behavior. When you scruff a dog and even growl (or just raise your voice a tiny bit), you are saying to the dog "Look here, I'm the boss, not you!". Dogs understand that.

In a pack, the alpha will make a unruly dog behave doing this same thing, grabbing his/her scruff and growling. Then they make the dog submit to them, by displaying their belly to them.

If your dog were to bite you, you wouldn't just sit there would you?

Are you a dog? Does your dog think you are a dog? If not, how can acting like a dog convey any meaningful message?

On topic:

I don't like the fact that the "Illusion collar" will mass market a tool that only trained professionals should use. The overwhelming majority of people that buy that from Cesar's site aren't going to know how to properly use it.

I agree with IQ, the correction works because it is painful. How else would it get the dogs attention better at the top of the head than at the base of the neck? Call it a correction, an aversive, or whatever you want--it is painful. Scruffing is also painful! Herschel and I enjoy our walks, I'm not going to ruin that for him with pain.

I'm not sure why dogs always walk on the left side. Some people say it is because hunters carry their rifles on the right shoulder, others say that it is because the animal always belongs on the left (horses, dogs, etc.) and I've also heard that when you are walking towards traffic (as you should) and the dog is on the left he will be in a safer position (instead of in the road).

 

[Andie]

I agree

I have to say I agree with Laura. Why would you put a collar on a dog to put them in pain? It is pointless. If you love your animal like you are supposed to love them then you should not have to object them to pain. I am not bashing on anyone about this, but would you put something on your daughter/son that would put them in pain whenever they did not listen. i do not know about alot of you but I have no kids and my animals are my life. I would never do anything that would jeopardize how they thought. They're are other methods of training besides causing pain. As far as the way Laura trains her dogs. I have seen her with Kona. Laura loves Kona like she is her child. Kona reacts to that by being the best dog she can be.

 

[dr2little]

Off topic:

Are you a dog? Does your dog think you are a dog? If not, how can acting like a dog convey any meaningful message?

On topic:

I don't like the fact that the "Illusion collar" will mass market a tool that only trained professionals should use. The overwhelming majority of people that buy that from Cesar's site aren't going to know how to properly use it.

I agree with IQ, the correction works because it is painful. How else would it get the dogs attention better at the top of the head than at the base of the neck? Call it a correction, an aversive, or whatever you want--it is painful. Scruffing is also painful! Herschel and I enjoy our walks, I'm not going to ruin that for him with pain.

I'm not sure why dogs always walk on the left side. Some people say it is because hunters carry their rifles on the right shoulder, others say that it is because the animal always belongs on the left (horses, dogs, etc.) and I've also heard that when you are walking towards traffic (as you should) and the dog is on the left he will be in a safer position (instead of in the road).

I agree. This collar (and I have seen it used) really just ensures that when a correction is delivered it's recieved at the most sensitive (PAINFUL) part of the dog, high on the neck behind the jaw. Also, you won't find many professionals using one either, so the target market will absolutely be the novice dog owner who's having difficulty with training. There are much better tools on the market for strong dogs and inexperienced owners.

One other thing that does bare mentioning is that inadvertant corrections are also being given using the collar when a dog is faced with a trigger that excites him in any way. These inadvertant corrections can very quickly be related to any trigger, child, bike, other dog and the result is often anxiety/aggression towards that trigger. This is really just a choke chain in a prettier package.

As far as the heel position goes. I have to add, and I just had this conversation in PM, that teaching the heel position, always on the left is actully detrimental to the dogs structure. You'd be amazed to see the damage done to not only the cervical spine (always looking up to the handler from the left position) right down to the front paws that turn in to the right. Take a good look at a dog who's been forced to work only from the left side, the results are clearly visible.
I haven't taught a tight heel for year but have gone to a 'by me' which means come in close, left or right).

 

[Gempress]

Excuse me....

But can everyone please respect Adrianne's wishes? She said specifically that she does not wish to debate the use of such collars in dog training.

If you'd like to talk about the relevance of correction/pain in dog training, could you please start another thread?

 

[Angel Chicken]

As far as the heel position goes. I have to add, and I just had this conversation in PM, that teaching the heel position, always on the left is actully detrimental to the dogs structure. You'd be amazed to see the damage done to not only the cervical spine (always looking up to the handler from the left position) right down to the front paws that turn in to the right. Take a good look at a dog who's been forced to work only from the left side, the results are clearly visible.
I haven't taught a tight heel for year but have gone to a 'by me' which means come in close, left or right).

Thanks for clearing that up for me, Doc Your one cool gal, ya know?

 

[dr2little]

Excuse me....

But can everyone please respect Adrianne's wishes? She said specifically that she does not wish to debate the use of such collars in dog training.

If you'd like to talk about the relevance of correction/pain in dog training, could you please start another thread?

This question can not be answered with a yes or a no. If this is in reference to my post, I think I answered her question exactly and my answer was from my experience with one, which requires the full answer. Please look back at her initial question -
So just for curiosity purposes has anyone tried the Illusion collar? Do you think it is safer than a prong or check chain collar? I would think the correction would be less adverse than either the prong or check chain. I am thinking of checking one out for Katya and seeing how it works. It is such a pain in the neck (pun intended) to constantly be readjusting the collar when out walking.
How would one answer without addressing the use and level of aversive?

 

[Adrienne]

I guess I would have to ask how this would be more "adverse" then a pinch/check chain collar. If the collar is always in the appropriate place the level of correction should not need to increase but decrease since it has appropriate placement on the neck, when the pinch slides down on Katya who is obviously a very well furred dog it does nothing except force me to pull harder for a good correction. I would think that in that case my correction may be too hard where with the illusion collar I am led to think the level of correction would decrease.

Some good thoughts to ponder over before I whip out that credit card!

 

[dr2little]

I guess I would have to ask how this would be more "adverse" then a pinch/check chain collar. If the collar is always in the appropriate place the level of correction should not need to increase but decrease since it has appropriate placement on the neck, when the pinch slides down on Katya who is obviously a very well furred dog it does nothing except force me to pull harder for a good correction. I would think that in that case my correction may be too hard where with the illusion collar I am led to think the level of correction would decrease.
First, you're absolutely right that a pinch/prong collar is considered "less aversive" than a choke chain, much safer, less risk of injury too. With the illusion, you'll find that the correction is felt the way it's meant to be felt every single time it's delivered because the part where the correction pin points remains the same every time. I know that Katya is not only a big furry girl but also a breed that tends to be tough and stoic so you may find this to be a rather useless tool for her. I've seen owners on their tippy toes trying to deliver a hard enough yank to have any impact at all.

I know that you thought that the front clip no pull harnesses that use leverage would probably not work on her, what about the other ones? There are many no pull harnesses on the market that are designed with aversives (armpit) that don't work with the neck. (I don't personally recommend them but this may be more what you're looking for). I can't remember if you said that the head collars weren't an option but I still find the newtrix is the best product that I've ever seen/used for the largest, most powerful dogs...just a thought. www.newtrix.ca They of course do require the training phase in order to properly habituate the dog to it prior to use during the walk.